Hornby Class 423 4-VEP

[Enterprisingwestern]

Taking into account all the other drawbacks / faults found with this model, l can only recommend a complete rebuild, using only the vehicles' sides.(cab-side windows excepted) and underframes

.

The thing is, where. do l, or anyone else, looking for a fair representative. start ??

 

As the ends are a different width, maybe the best plan is to ditch the Hornby body altogether and use MJT sides and ends? and an alternative roof with vents etc done correctly.

That was my thought if I can get a 4VEP complete or chassis only at the right price, well south of £100 I think.

[SRman]

In that vein, I was thinking that maybe I'll invest in a cheapish Hornby class 73 and use the motor bogie to replace the existing Lima one in my MJT VEP (built using four Lima Restaurant/Buffet coaches as the basis!). While not as detailed it at least looks like a VEP at the front and runs reliably on any curves or gradients I can throw it at!

[S.A.C Martin]

This is my issue with the whole model. If one or the other out of "looks and running quality" were good enough, most modellers would happily have the model, and fix the other problem.

 

Here, we have both as major problems. The way the bogies have been designed, and the way the couplings work, are fundamentally flawed and won't give most of the 4VEPs the running qualities we expected on the basis of the similarly sized Bachmann 4CEP.

 

If we are going to end up replacing the motor bogie, bogies, sides and front, then the question of whether it is easier to get a 4VEP that runs well and looks the part, from a kit, is still there and hanging like a Damocles dagger. Particularly if all you are going to be using is the frames and interiors (bar one which adds to the argument against it).

 

I've felt thoroughly depressed, waiting on my MJT parts for the last few weeks, while it sits on my shelf, that my planned end to end layout has been stored in the loft for now as I haven't the heart to do any more work on it. The 4VEP was going to be one of several EMUs I was going to buy, modify, and in several cases, build, but it's left such a bitter taste in my mouth that I find working on it, even the simplest of jobs, to be wearying.

 

I accept that's just me on that point: but I do feel I would have had an easier and more enjoyable time working on "Sidcup" if I had gone for a Bachmann 4CEP instead of the Hornby 4VEP as my first southern EMU. Testing the baseboards and track layout is all but impossible with the 4VEP's current running quality.

[Venator]

This is my issue with the whole model. If one or the other out of "looks and running quality" were good enough, most modellers would happily have the model, and fix the other problem.

 

Here, we have both as major problems. The way the bogies have been designed, and the way the couplings work, are fundamentally flawed and won't give most of the 4VEPs the running qualities we expected on the basis of the similarly sized Bachmann 4CEP.

 

If we are going to end up replacing the motor bogie, bogies, sides and front, then the question of whether it is easier to get a 4VEP that runs well and looks the part, from a kit, is still there and hanging like a Damocles dagger. Particularly if all you are going to be using is the frames and interiors (bar one which adds to the argument against it).

 

I've felt thoroughly depressed, waiting on my MJT parts for the last few weeks, while it sits on my shelf, that my planned end to end layout has been stored in the loft for now as I haven't the heart to do any more work on it. The 4VEP was going to be one of several EMUs I was going to buy, modify, and in several cases, build, but it's left such a bitter taste in my mouth that I find working on it, even the simplest of jobs, to be wearying.

 

I accept that's just me on that point: but I do feel I would have had an easier and more enjoyable time working on "Sidcup" if I had gone for a Bachmann 4CEP instead of the Hornby 4VEP as my first southern EMU. Testing the baseboards and track layout is all but impossible with the 4VEP's current running quality.

 

If you watch the video I posted on here you will see that the 4VEP running qualities aren't actually too bad. Radius 2 curves are no problem, multiple points connected into very sharp curves are no problem. It even travels over my settrack diamond when other locos / units stall on it. Watch the video, there's my proof!

[S.A.C Martin]

 

If you watch the video I posted on here you will see that the 4VEP running qualities aren't actually too bad. Radius 2 curves are no problem, multiple points connected into very sharp curves are no problem. It even travels over my settrack diamond when other locos / units stall on it. Watch the video, there's my proof!

 

Venator, I have been running mine for nearly two months solid with no sign of improvement of running. In that time, it has derailed countless times, with traction tyres degrading for no reason other than they appeared to do so of their own accord. Mine has failed to traverse a simple oval circuit (with second radius curves) without derailing.

 

I am happy that yours is adequate for your needs, but all the proof I need of the running qualities for my unit is currently sitting on my shelf, in bits, waiting for specific components to arrive that will hopefully improve it to a level of acceptability.

[spamcan61]

 

If you watch the video I posted on here you will see that the 4VEP running qualities aren't actually too bad. Radius 2 curves are no problem, multiple points connected into very sharp curves are no problem. It even travels over my settrack diamond when other locos / units stall on it. Watch the video, there's my proof!

 

There is obviously a big degree of sample variation between these units in terms of their running qualities, whether yours or S.A.C Martin's is closest to typical we know not, or whether they are completely 'pot luck' in terms of one's chances of getting a reasonable runner.

['CHARD]

...is still there and hanging like a Damocles dagger.

 

I understand these are planned for the 2012 Airfix range.

 

How realistic they'll be is another thing. My money's on the flippin' thread breaking and killing us all.

[Ceptic]

Venator,

 

What's the slowest speed that your unit will traverse a crossover ?.

At anything approaching a scale speed, mine will stall. That's if l can get it to run smoothly at anything like a slowish, scale speed !!

If l up the speed, mine has the tendancy to de-rail, not always tho'.

 

Cheers.

[AndrewC]

After reading the last dozen or so pages, I'm wondering if I should dust off my half finished SouthernPride kit. Had my first look at the Hornby model yesterday in Modelzone. Underwhelmed is the word I'd use. Compared to the Bachmann CEP, Hornby appear to have gone back to the bad old days of 1985. Traction tires??? Power bogie. Yea, ok I can see that on the Limby stuff, but on a newly tooled model??? They want at least £20 more for it??? Thanks but no thanks Hornby. Perhaps this is Hornby's Austin Marina.

[Uk_Steve]

 

If you watch the video I posted on here you will see that the 4VEP running qualities aren't actually too bad. Radius 2 curves are no problem, multiple points connected into very sharp curves are no problem. It even travels over my settrack diamond when other locos / units stall on it. Watch the video, there's my proof!

 

Venator just thinking out loud here

 

keep good care of your model because if your train is in the bracket of "exceptional circumstances" you could

be sitting on a goldmine

example

a full running model which on the 2nd hard market like E Bay could make you some good money

 

i know if i could buy a working model i would or may be tempted to pay more for that model thats for sure

 

but like the rest i prefer to hear what Hornby got to say about the models in hand which clearly dont work

 

i would even go to Hornby as i am based in Kent if they offered to show me a full test on a lay out if i could

do a lucky pick from the batch and see with my own eyes it works without fail

 

all the best from Steve

[Pennine MC]

 

There is obviously a big degree of sample variation between these units in terms of their running qualities, whether yours or S.A.C Martin's is closest to typical we know not, or whether they are completely 'pot luck' in terms of one's chances of getting a reasonable runner.

 

Mmm. It's obviously good that Venator is happy with his unit, but as I think I said before, I really dont think the 'I can't see a problem, therefore there isn't one' attitude is helpful.

Edited November 4, 2011 by Pennine MC

[gelboy45]

Gentlemen, what is so disappointing is that we appear to have had no response from Hornby - unlike Athearn in the USA who have apologised and promised to rectify a recent model, and that is only on obvious dimensional errors not running quality too.

 

I was so looking forward to this VEP and I am an N scale man!

 

Gerry

[S.A.C Martin]

I must confess, I'm a trite disappointed to not have had a response from my letters as yet. I will however leave it another week before thinking on the next course of action (if any).

[jonathan452]

Gentlemen, what is so disappointing is that we appear to have had no response from Hornby -

Gerry

 

Hornby are at Wycrail tomorrow (Saturday 05.11.11).

[Venator]

 

Venator, I have been running mine for nearly two months solid with no sign of improvement of running. In that time, it has derailed countless times, with traction tyres degrading for no reason other than they appeared to do so of their own accord. Mine has failed to traverse a simple oval circuit (with second radius curves) without derailing.

 

I am happy that yours is adequate for your needs, but all the proof I need of the running qualities for my unit is currently sitting on my shelf, in bits, waiting for specific components to arrive that will hopefully improve it to a level of acceptability.

 

Hi SAC Martin: I'm really not sure as to why yours is performing as it is, similarly I'm sure you can't believe that mine performs as it does! Obviously that's not good if it can't traverse your R2 loop. It would be interesting to put your VEP on my loop!

 

Venator,

 

What's the slowest speed that your unit will traverse a crossover ?.

At anything approaching a scale speed, mine will stall. That's if l can get it to run smoothly at anything like a slowish, scale speed !!

If l up the speed, mine has the tendancy to de-rail, not always tho'.

 

Cheers.

 

Hi Ceptic, I have a Gaugemaster Controller and it will traverse the crossover at about 30 - 35 on the controller. The power coach raises slightly as the wheels touch the plastic (again see video) but on that speed setting is has the momentum to get over it. Other locos I have have the same issue. When you up the speed is that on curves or straight sections? I have found that increasing the power too quickly can lead to derailing, so I gently up the speed until it hits about 60 - 65. Even my most robust units tend to derail on my loop on more than that speed. Hope this helps.

 

 

Venator just thinking out loud here

 

keep good care of your model because if your train is in the bracket of "exceptional circumstances" you could

be sitting on a goldmine

example

a full running model which on the 2nd hard market like E Bay could make you some good money

 

i know if i could buy a working model i would or may be tempted to pay more for that model thats for sure

 

but like the rest i prefer to hear what Hornby got to say about the models in hand which clearly dont work

 

i would even go to Hornby as i am based in Kent if they offered to show me a full test on a lay out if i could

do a lucky pick from the batch and see with my own eyes it works without fail

 

all the best from Steve

 

Hi Steve, thank you for your thoughts. Clearly BJ models in King's Lynn is the place then! I was in King's Lynn when the VEP was released so I went there (though I've bought loads of stuff from there and never had any problems). In my view there may be some quality control issues but without having a range of models to look at I cannot properly judge. I'd have thought all the NSE VEPs were in the same batch though? Is there a way of identifying different batches / models? I wouldn't sell my 4VEP though, I've become far too attached to it! I do agree that it would put your mind at ease if you saw one running well around a sizeable layout and bought that specific model.

Great to discuss with you, Venator.

 

 

Mmm. It's obviously good that Venator is happy with his unit, but as I think I said before, I really dont think the 'I can't see a problem, therefore there isn't one' attitude is helpful.

 

PennineMC, People are reporting their own individual problems and I'm merely saying that I have a 4VEP that works and doesn't suffer from many of the problems reported. Perhaps its an issue of quality control? As I said above, I'm unsure about that but it may be a logical starting point for meaningful discussion.

Edited November 4, 2011 by Venator

[S.A.C Martin]

 

Hi SAC Martin: I'm really not sure as to why yours is performing as it is, similarly I'm sure you can't believe that mine performs as it does! Obviously that's not good if it can't traverse your R2 loop. It would be interesting to put your VEP on my loop!

 

I have actually put the 4VEP on a friend's rather extensive model railway with long straights. I intend to go back to film the whole sequence, as the number of derailments caused by the locking up of the axles on various bogies was laughable, despite my efforts to lubricate and generally make them better running. In contrast, the Bachmann 4CEP I have borrowed from the same friend has performed effortlessly, a real joy to watch and now firmly on my wishlist.

 

PennineMC, People are reporting their own individual problems and I'm merely saying that I have a 4VEP that works and doesn't suffer from many of the problems reported. Perhaps its an issue of quality control?

 

I can state almost categorically with regards the design of the bogies, that it is a design issue and not a quality control one. The quality control problem may be with respect the powered bogie and traction tyres on mine, however the clip in nature of the axles and bogies on all eight bogies tends itself towards poor running I am afraid. The design is flawed, producing a heck of a lot of friction between axle and plastic. Point to point bearings would have been better in this regard, that I am in no doubt of.

 

Yours may "work" with a more reliable powered bogie (which I have found to be at the cause of most of my problems), however I could almost guarantee that you could remove each unpowered coach from your 4VEP, and test their rolling qualities, and find them severely inadequate in that regard.

 

I am pleased that your particular 4VEP is working well for you, however I remain firmly convinced of several points of contention about this model, for which there is neither an easy fix or an answer as to why it was designed in this manner. It's sad to say, but the elephant in the room is the clip in axles - I can't think of a single manufacturer who has used this method in their coach bogies for some time, given its obvious inadequacies (which in this case exacerbate an already inadequate powered unit).

[metadyneman]

I think we are in danger of creating a "mine does this" or "mine derails at that" stance giving the impression that the whole batch of units are all the same and they all do the same thing ( which they don't). Similarly we are also getting wrapped up in those modellers who demand precise and accurate details on everything that a R-T-R manufacturer produces which as everyone knows is nigh on impossible. I'm not entirely happy with the Hornby VEP but in the same vane I'm not prepared to lambast Hornby before they have had a chance to swallow the veracious comments of some of the more "over enthusiastic" rivet counters in this thread. The Hornby VEP is a serviceable model. It is not up to the standards of what we have been used to and has therefore attracted much criticism... hopefully Hornby will take this on board but I feel further slanging at Hornby will not achieve any benefit however much we dislike their interpretation of the VEP. Let's give time for Hornby to respond.. and by that I don't mean 4 weeks.. I mean possibly 4 to 6 months. The VEP is wrong in many ways, but in reality if the VEP was made before Bachmann's CEP I wonder how many of us would have moaned so much as we have.

 

Over to you Mr Kohler!

[gc4946]

I've never seen their 4VEP running even on Hornby's demonstration layout which they take to shows.

Last year I went to a model railway show at the NRM in York (6-7 November) where Hornby had a presence and Simon Kohler was present. I asked him where the model had gone as by then painted samples were available, but it wasn't in the display case, he said it had gone away to be photographed. If I could have seen it running merrily around their layout, then I would have been more confident about buying one when they reached the shops.

['CHARD]

I think we are in danger of creating a "mine does this" or "mine derails at that" stance giving the impression that the whole batch of units are all the same and they all do the same thing ( which they don't).

I don't follow this. You say 'mine does this or that' which clearly gives the impression that the batch are definitely not homogenous.

 

Similarly we are also getting wrapped up in those modellers who demand precise and accurate details on everything that a R-T-R manufacturer produces which as everyone knows is nigh on impossible.

Not really, we are caught in an ambiguous position where we had been given a sense of expectation that this model would not be a backward step for the price charged, when it clearly has been for the more discerning or observant modellers. There may be merit in your argument for rivet counting detail (as you call it) but not for stuff moulded back to front, missing on one bodyside out of the eight, or worse than the interior of Tri-ang MkIs in the case of solid partitions. These are backward steps indicative of flaws in the product-realization process.

 

I'm not entirely happy with the Hornby VEP but in the same vane I'm not prepared to lambast Hornby before they have had a chance to swallow the veracious comments of some of the more "over enthusiastic" rivet counters in this thread.

That is an opinion. It doesn't excuse the lack of pin-point axles or an inadequately designed or manufactured motor bogie, for which basic flaws I suggest Hornby would be rightly lambasted - those are a return to design features of the 1977 Class 25 and BRCW DMU. I don't see how they are easily forgiveable, it's not as if that axle arrangement gives them a cost saving: their QA or drawing checkers took their eye off the ball and passed something that isn't fit for purpose, and that's inexcusable for a company that is pitching this train at a high end market slot based upon its price.

 

The Hornby VEP is a serviceable model. It is not up to the standards of what we have been used to and has therefore attracted much criticism...

It's only serviceable if your particular specimen happens to work. The derailing, stuttering, tyre-shedding or back-to-front examples are not serviceable.

 

hopefully Hornby will take this on board but I feel further slanging at Hornby will not achieve any benefit however much we dislike their interpretation of the VEP. Let's give time for Hornby to respond.. and by that I don't mean 4 weeks.. I mean possibly 4 to 6 months. The VEP is wrong in many ways, but in reality if the VEP was made before Bachmann's CEP I wonder how many of us would have moaned so much as we have.

 

Over to you Mr Kohler!

Hear from you in 4 to 6 months Mr Kohler, surely, as Hornby need that long to respond

 

 

Without wishing to sound too disparaging, we've been through all this in the previous x pages, and some sort of consensus appeared to have been reached. This takes us back to stage one.

[Matloughe]

Thinking out loud here; what if Venator's 4-VEP is from a different batch?

Which is why it has the supposed improvements in the track-keeping and haulage departments?

 

Perhaps Hornby has made some alterations to their models in response to the issues with the first batch; I don't work for Hornby neither have a I got a 4-VEP. But does anyone have *first released* and a more recent model, do they run differently? Do they sound different?

 

Just putting my 2d out here. I hope you gt a response from Hornby soon, I have had to wait four weeks for a reply from them but this was immediately after Christmas when no doubt they were busy with lots of returns.

 

Cheers,

~ Gary

[frobisher]

Thinking out loud here; what if Venator's 4-VEP is from a different batch?

Which is why it has the supposed improvements in the track-keeping and haulage departments?

 

More likely I would say is that Venator's is behaving as intended and would be one of the models for which the production process worked as it was meant to. If it was from an improved batch, then that would imply that Hornby had noted the issue, and had taken steps to rectify it without recalling the defective batch that was to go out on the same container ship to Europe, or acknowleding the problem.

 

I'm much more prepared to believe that the QC process on the production line for the 4VEP has been shocking and that Hornby weren't aware of the magnitude of that problem until the product shipped to retailers and hence to customers.

[S.A.C Martin]

Gentlemen - the murder (or facelift per say) is out. See what you think, and you tell me which you think looks more like a 4VEP:

 

Only trying it at one end for the moment. MJT end, suitably modified (the three separate panels malarky filed out and smoothed), with the MJT coupling fitted too, compared to the standard Hornby end.

 

Your thoughts, as always, appreciated.

 

And by the way - the door lights still work. Result. Just need to drill the relevant hole for the high intensity light and make up some flush glazing to fit.

 

That and repaint the whole front end, not a big deal as I was going to do that in any event.

[DerekEm8]

Just a my two pence worth. .

 

Is Hornby's Railroad / ex Lima range sourced from a different factory to the much appreciated better quality newer models?

 

Obviously the Railroad range has been manufactured to a lower price and specification.

 

Has the VEP been sourced from this factory as an attempt to cut production costs.

 

Just thinking.

[S.A.C Martin]

...if the VEP was made before Bachmann's CEP I wonder how many of us would have moaned so much as we have.

 

I think quite a lot of people would have asked why the Hornby model, (assuming the price differences between 4CEP and 4VEP remained constant) would want to know why their inferior model cost more than a newer, more detailed, better running, more accurate specimen from a rival manufacturer.

 

This is actually irrelevant. Bachmann brought their 4CEP to the market first, and got it right first time. They then brought out the 2EPB which, as it turns out, had a livery application mistake (as the 4VEP does actually). Their first instinct was to immediately order a set of replacement bodies for everyone who wanted one.

 

I know which form of the customer service I'd prefer. Particularly as I've recently emailed both companies again to inquire about spares (both for steam era models) and only one was forthcoming with spare parts. As a result, I have two GCR tenders, a set of Peppercorn A2 driving wheels, a Peppercorn A1 bodyshell and more besides.

 

I do not think I have berated, lambasted, or been otherwise vitriolic to Hornby in this thread. I have made several things abundantly clear - there are facts, as opposed opinions which cannot be denied. We all disagree on the merits of its running qualities, that much is certain, but it is an absolute stone cold fact that its current setup causes much friction between the axles and the plastic bogie on all of the models. This is not just a manufacturing glitch: it is a design flaw.

 

The difference is how good your powered bogie appears to be, to overcome this rolling resistance and get the train moving. That is the bone of contention, some of us have powered bogies which appear to be absolutely determined to throw themselves off the rails, others don't.

 

At the end of the day, I've done my bit, done it in the best possible manner, and three weeks later I am still awaiting a response from two magazines and two head honchos in the company concerned. In that time, I have emailed Bachmann four times and received excellent customer service four times, MJT have delivered several packages worth of components, I've had ebay wins arrive and sales depart, and even had a kit arrive from Tokyo four days after winning the ebay auction.

 

So why am I feeling so unbelievably fed up with the 4VEP? Perhaps it is because on here, my opinion has been for the most part dismissed rather vocally by a select few members (and in equal measure, supported), and as yet, despite keeping a cool, honest, and polite tongue in me, I appear to have been completely ignored by the company concerned.

 

So please chaps, let's keep it sensible. If you are happy with your 4VEPs, please continue to be happy with them. However, let's not try and debate the facts of the matter. There are some things which cannot be changed, not matter how many times an opinion is thrown around.

Edited November 5, 2011 by S.A.C Martin

[spamcan61]

Just a my two pence worth. .

 

Is Hornby's Railroad / ex Lima range sourced from a different factory to the much appreciated better quality newer models?

 

Obviously the Railroad range has been manufactured to a lower price and specification.

 

Has the VEP been sourced from this factory as an attempt to cut production costs.

 

Just thinking.

 

I wondered about this the other day over in the 'cheap toys' thread; unfortunately I don't think they're going to tell us.