Hornby Class 423 4-VEP

[pauln]

Interesting because on mine (as shown previously in this thread) the model as purchased had the traction tyres on the same axle.

 

Thank you Steve for your continued updates, I am glad that the problems in your model appear to have been resolved satisfactorily.

 

The one that Hornby sent me to try out also had the traction tyres on the diagonally opposite axles - this helped with better running for me. Not sure how easy they are to swap for those that have one at home ?

[S.A.C Martin]

 

The one that Hornby sent me to try out also had the traction tyres on the diagonally opposite axles - this helped with better running for me. Not sure how easy they are to swap for those that have one at home ?

 

Not entirely easy, but I have managed to replace my set with a set of non traction tyre wheelsets. It was a case of pressing non traction tyre wheels on to the original traction tyre axle.

[gc4946]

My modification to both traction tyres was to swap the wheels round so that the tyres are on one side, like their other motor bogies:

 

 

It'll be interesting to see which traction tyre arrangement's better - diagonal or both on one side. Maybe someone who owns more than one unit can compare both ways and find out what works better.

[RFS]

If you have both tyres on one side then you only have electrical pickup from the two wheels on the trailing bogie for that side. With one tyre on each side you have three pickup wheels on each side.

Edited January 6, 2012 by RFS

[spamcan61]

If you have both tyres on one side then you only have electrical pickup from the two wheels on the trailing bogie for that side. With one tyre on each side you have three pickup wheels on each side.

 

Trouble is, when going round corners the inner wheel has to slip slightly, which is tricky if both inner and outer on the same bogie have traction tyres on.

[RFS]

 

Trouble is, when going round corners the inner wheel has to slip slightly, which is tricky if both inner and outer on the same bogie have traction tyres on.

 

But there's no problem if you have a tyre on the inner wheel first axle and the other on the outer wheel of second axle.

[metadyneman]

Not being funny here but in the 21st Century and with excellent models coming from Bachmann without traction tyres.. we shouldn't be having this conversation at all. The VEP is a 3rd rate pile of rubbish that we used to be bombarded with by Lima and it's about time we all made Hornby aware of it and said enough is enough... Ditch the traction tyres and stop fobbing us off with rubbish motors!

[Gwiwer]

And at a list price of £200 for the 2012 b/g version may I just add a resounding "Hear hear!!!"

[43179]

And at a list price of £200 for the 2012 b/g version may I just add a resounding "Hear hear!!!"

Ditto -

and of all the things, a retooled bit of the interior isn't going to get me to change my mind and open my wallet open i'm afriad -

The solid compartment walls didn't even come into my decision not to buy one . The cabs - and the fact they do not look like a VEP being much more of an issue. Just as well there isnt an SWT version in this years line up!

 

tfn

 

Jon

[metadyneman]

It seems to me that Hornby wheeled out their VEP to try and snatch a bit of the SR EMU market away from the stunning Bachmann EMUs... with what Hornby has produced, all I can say is they have shot themselves in the foot with the VEP. It was a lovely idea and could have been so much better, but it isn't! In fact it is a disgrace to British Railway modelling!

Edited January 8, 2012 by metadyneman

[Gwiwer]

It has certainly caused some justifiable apprehension over the forthcoming Brighton Belle units.

 

On the positive side however I learn from elsewhere in the cyberverse that those are indeed "very heavy" and are definitely not fitted with traction tyres but no word yet on the nature and placement of the power unit nor the internal couplers.

 

Suffice to say I am nowhere near sufficiently convinced that the Veps are fit for purpose and value for money to be willing to purchase one at even a hefty retailer's discount. I shall need to see corrected compartment sidewalls, have substantial evidence that the traction and power arrangements work adequately and will still be unconvinced by the design of the front end for the asking price.

 

We pays our money and takes our choice and I take note of those above who have spent many hours and no small amounts of money improving the model to the point of their satisfaction. I make no apology for suggesting none of that work should have been necessary for the asking price from a reputable manufacturer. If the Vep had been released as a "Railroad" item and priced accordingly I would still not have bought one due to the fundamental issues in representation and powering.

[John M Upton]

On the positive side however I learn from elsewhere in the cyberverse that those are indeed "very heavy" and are definitely not fitted with traction tyres but no word yet on the nature and placement of the power unit nor the internal couplers.

 

Photos I have seen of the Belle's cars appear to show the same rather shambolic (in my opinion, other opinions are available) internal couplings the VEP has...

[Removed a/c]

It is abundantly clear that there are many different issues with the VEP, what I cannot get my head around is that Hornby are releasing another one. Are they oblivious to the issues? And the increase in cost.................well I just don't get it

 

It must have been popular and had little returns as they are in it to make a profit, bottom line plain and simple.

[Oldddudders]

It is abundantly clear that there are many different issues with the VEP, what I cannot get my head around is that Hornby are releasing another one. Are they oblivious to the issues? And the increase in cost.................well I just don't get it

 

It must have been popular and had little returns as they are in it to make a profit, bottom line plain and simple.

I suspect the lead time for the next batch would have been so long that things were already committed before the dismay surfaced with the first tranche. Telling the factory to stop at that stage - even assuming Hornby have/had acknowledged the magnitude of the problem - might have been no cheaper than letting them continue.

[rew570]

Hi All,

 

I'm just catching up with this thread. I recently had one, a blue analogue version. A problem I've found it derails on corners, in the case of my layout coming in and out of points. After close inspection, the coupling bars on the ends of the cabs are quite tight which appears to offer resistance when the leading bogie tries to force the coupling round a curve. This resistance causes the coupling not to turn with the bogie causing the lead wheels to derail. By putting the two ends together and dragging them across point work, the couplings lead the other round resulting in no derailment.

 

I had noticed a difference in speed on curves, I put it down to the cleanliness of the track

 

I hadn't noticed traction tyres until I saw the photos, mine are on the one set of wheels, leaving the other set for better current collection. This is probably why it sometimes stops on slower speeds running over insul frog sections.

 

Originally I put the two ends on the wrong way round which made the lights run in the opposite direction. I don't know why Hornby don't put the vehicle numbers on the diagram provided in the literature. This would solve this from the outset.

 

The internal couplings I think are also far easier to couple than the Bachmann version.

 

On the whole, I think it's a superb model which will go nicely with the blue dup a dup DEMU from Kernow Models, when it arrives.

 

Rew570

Edited January 8, 2012 by rew570

[Venator]

Not being funny here but in the 21st Century and with excellent models coming from Bachmann without traction tyres.. we shouldn't be having this conversation at all. The VEP is a 3rd rate pile of rubbish that we used to be bombarded with by Lima and it's about time we all made Hornby aware of it and said enough is enough... Ditch the traction tyres and stop fobbing us off with rubbish motors!

 

Simple solution - buy Bachmann models and take your custom exclusively to them. Nowhere is it compulsory for people to buy the 4VEP offering from Hornby. If its so inaccurate and unacceptable I suggest said people buy a kit (which look worse in my opinion, the MJK cab end is hideous).

 

I (and many others) like the 4VEP and are pleased with it. I recently spoke to a retailer and they said the 4VEPs were rapidly disappearing. Traction tyres don't cause me any problems and the motor runs nicely, giving a realistic level of speed (if you wish to dispute that please see the video I posted on this thread earlier). I wanted an RTR NSE DC EMU suitable for my layout. I do not have the patience or will to go and build a rivet perfect 4VEP so I'm very happy Hornby have made a 4VEP. They've offered to correct the 1st class coach so the only thing I wasn't entirely happy about will be sorted.

 

Again in terms of price - I remember the 4VEP price being around £160 when it was first announced, I eventually picked it up for £40 less. Prices can change and RRP isn't always what retailers sell at.

 

Far from being a disgrace to modelling I think its a bold step into a new market from Hornby. None of the reviews I've read in numerous magazines seemed to think that either (though no doubt people think there's a media conspiracy there, so to justify their own views as true).

 

I reiterate the point - don't like the 4VEP, don't buy / own one and leave those of us who are satisfied customers to enjoy them. I sincerely hope all this negativity doesn't mean Hornby won't make further potential models (such as the 4CIG).

[S.A.C Martin]

 

Simple solution - buy Bachmann models and take your custom exclusively to them. Nowhere is it compulsory for people to buy the 4VEP offering from Hornby. If its so inaccurate and unacceptable I suggest said people buy a kit (which look worse in my opinion, the MJK cab end is hideous).

 

MJT. I have found the MJT front end less "wrong" in some respects though agreeably they both have flaws. I suspect many people who were waiting for the 4VEP may yet buy a 4CEP from Bachmann.

 

I (and many others) like the 4VEP and are pleased with it.

 

Which, as has been said frequently and I note by the very person you are addressing, no one has a problem with, and are more than happy that others are happy with their purchases. I don't begrudge your opinion nor your happiness with the model.

 

I recently spoke to a retailer and they said the 4VEPs were rapidly disappearing.

 

Which retailer? I'd be interested to hear at what rate they're disappearing.

 

 

Traction tyres don't cause me any problems and the motor runs nicely, giving a realistic level of speed (if you wish to dispute that please see the video I posted on this thread earlier).

 

For your example. Let's be clear on this, your example is adequate for you. Your example is not indicative of an entire batch, any more than mine is.

 

Both of our models are from the same first batch of models, however, and both have fundamental design flaws. We have gone over this ground before, sad to say.

 

All of the 4VEPs produced have clip in axles for all bogies, which causes increased amounts of friction, preventing free rolling.

 

All of the 4VEPs are missing a door handle on one side of a coach.

 

All of the 4VEPs are all moulded bodyshells with few separately fitted components.

 

All of the 4VEPs have the guard irons designed on the wrong way (and I have seen nothing to suggest Hornby are going to fix this particularly bothersome inaccuracy either).

 

All of the 4VEPs are missing a substantial interior compartment.

 

All of the 4VEPs have traction tyres. This in itself is not a "flaw" but if the bogies had been pin point bearings and free rolling, then traction tyres would have been unnecessary, thus allowing the model valuable extra pickup.

 

All of the 4VEPs only have pickup on one coach. This is not necessarily a quality control issue, but it is an issue of design. Bachmann's 4CEP has it across all of the coaches.

 

So there is a competitor's model which not only looks and is more accurate, runs better, doesn't leave rubber residue on rails, has better current collection, and to cap it all, has a lower RRP.

 

Is it fair to compare the 4CEP and 4VEP? Absolutely. It is an entirely fair comparison. Both are third rail, four coach EMUs which work in similar locations and time frames. The difference is a matter of quality and price.

 

If Bachmann's 4CEP had been a 4VEP, and we had a question of duplication instead, nobody would have have any hesitation in stating the Bachmann model was superior in all areas.

 

Bachmann approached the 4CEP model as a model, and it is a stonking model which resulted from their design team. No shortcuts, no standard motors; lots of separately fitted components, a decent and smooth heavy mechanism which powers the train adequately and without the need for traction tyres, which includes pickups on all wheels.

 

If you accept the point that the 4VEP is an inferior model - which it is, and no amount of "I'm happy with it" or "I'm not happy with it" is going to change that fact - then you can understand and appreciate the dilemma the 4VEP represents for a good amount of people.

 

Like it or lump it, we are not now going to get a 4VEP of the quality of the Bachmann 4CEP, because Hornby have made it, and made it in this particular fashion. That is an absolute crying shame, considering the prototype and its popularity. So the question for the more discerning modellers is not just a question of price against quality - it's "can the 4VEP hold its own against the other EMUs on my layout"?

 

Putting a Bachmann 4CEP next to a Hornby 4VEP shows up the Hornby model's poor overall research and design. Simple as.

 

I do wonder how Hornby justify the retail price on the 4VEP in comparison to the retail price Bachmann put on their superior 4CEP.

 

I wanted an RTR NSE DC EMU suitable for my layout. I do not have the patience or will to go and build a rivet perfect 4VEP so I'm very happy Hornby have made a 4VEP. They've offered to correct the 1st class coach so the only thing I wasn't entirely happy about will be sorted.

 

Have they offered? It's still only been made known on Rail Express magazine. Has Hornby approached you personally on this issue? I certainly haven't and I put myself forward as an owner and with both a home and email address.

 

That's not exactly "offering" as "making known we'll do something about it at some point" - and even then, if it weren't for this thread and the Rail Express website, would we have known about this wonderfully gracious offer of theirs?

 

Again in terms of price - I remember the 4VEP price being around £160 when it was first announced, I eventually picked it up for £40 less. Prices can change and RRP isn't always what retailers sell at.

 

That is true, however the original RRP and the original retail price, it could be argued, were still too high for the quality of the model, in comparison to similar models.

 

Far from being a disgrace to modelling I think its a bold step into a new market from Hornby. None of the reviews I've read in numerous magazines seemed to think that either (though no doubt people think there's a media conspiracy there, so to justify their own views as true).

 

I'm in danger of stepping into that conspiracy circle I'm afraid but it's only been on RMweb and a few other forums that inaccuracies/problems have come to light. Model Rail's review of the NSE model gave it the same score as the Beattie Well Tank. That is something which I find utterly unfathomable. The 4VEP had very light reviews in Railway Modeller, BRM, and Hornby Magazine, and given there were Hornby adverts for said model floating around - well, people ARE going to put two and two together, surely?

 

But no one would have been the slightest bit cynical or bothered by the timing of the 4VEP adverts and the reviews if the model in question wasn't so utterly divisive in popular opinion.

 

I reiterate the point - don't like the 4VEP, don't buy / own one and leave those of us who are satisfied customers to enjoy them. I sincerely hope all this negativity doesn't mean Hornby won't make further potential models (such as the 4CIG).

 

I sincerely hope, were Hornby to do a 4CIG, that they would have learned from the 4VEP and the quality would match that of their steam outline models.

 

However at this point, and I accept I may be in a minority concerning this, but I hope Hornby leave the 4CIG well alone. If the 4VEP is indicative of their attitude towards 3rd Rail models not intended for the train set market (Javelin, etc), then I'd fear for a Hornby 4CIG model. I truly would.

 

Bachmann on the other hand - on the basis of their 4CEP and 2EPB models, I'd gladly be throwing money at Bachmann to produce a 4CIG in the vein of those models.

 

That they made modelling 3rd Rail EMUs affordable and not at the cost of quality, whilst putting out a reasonable RRP for what is a thoroughly superb 4 coach EMU, and Hornby could not match them in any way, shape or form, is an indictment on Hornby as a company, particularly when you see their Thompson L1, Gresley Suburbans, Class 60, MK3 DVT, Hawksworths, the list goes on...

 

I'm tired of the round and round debate over "we're happy", "we're not happy", "we're happy why aren't you", "we're unhappy you should be too".

 

Fundamentally there is a "fact" to this debate, and it is "fact" to say that Hornby's 4VEP followed the Bachmann 4CEP into the market, and was found to be wanting on every level of its design, quality, and price.

 

And to be frank, who can argue with the facts?

Edited January 9, 2012 by S.A.C Martin

[frobisher]

Bachmann approached the 4CEP model as a model, and it is a stonking model which resulted from their design team. No shortcuts, no standard motors; lots of separately fitted components, a decent and smooth heavy mechanism which powers the train adequately and without the need for traction tyres, which includes pickups on all wheels.

 

There I have to correct you. It's the same motor assembly as used on the Bachmann 108 before it and the 105, Derby Lightweight, 2EPB and 350 afterwards. Standard does not mean "sub standard" remember

 

The Limby motor bogie is actually fine and smooth, just Hornby don't seem to have got the hang of applying weight to it correctly and hence why the later applied traction tyres to it. Bachmann's solution to make a 3 pole motor run as smoothly as a 5 pole one (which is one area they save costs in manufacture) is to put a flywheel on it, which is why the Bachmann motor bogie (somewhat more intrusive than the Limby one) is designed the way it is. It's a somewhat better compromise to be sure.

 

I do wonder how Hornby justify the retail price on the 4VEP in comparison to the retail price Bachmann put on their superior 4CEP.

 

That's what Hornby have to sell at compared to what Bachmann have to sell at. Simple as that. It's been "a given" for years that Bachmann produce equivalent products chepaer than Hornby, just as in N gauge Dapol products cost more than equivalent Farish products. There is a difference in the cost base for the various manufacturers, and it might be that as a wholey owned subsidary of Kader that Bachmann gets something of a more benficial rate with regards to manufacture and tooling than an external client such as Hornby or Dapol do/would.

 

I sincerely hope, were Hornby to do a 4CIG, that they would have learned from the 4VEP and the quality would match that of their steam outline models.

 

However at this point, and I accept I may be in a minority concerning this, but I hope Hornby leave the 4CIG well alone. If the 4VEP is indicative of their attitude towards 3rd Rail models not intended for the train set market (Javelin, etc), then I'd fear for a Hornby 4CIG model. I truly would.

 

Bachmann on the other hand - on the basis of their 4CEP and 2EPB models, I'd gladly be throwing money at Bachmann to produce a 4CIG in the vein of those models.

 

I'd not necessarily look to Bachmann or Hornby on that one - there's an open goal there, and if I were Dapol that's where I'd punt the ball. Hornby have just had a mauling on the VEP making n 00 CIG very unlikey from them. On past practice, Dapol look to Hornby's range to find the "safe bets" to model in N (Class 121, 67, 56, 92, 390 (if somewhat delayed), 156, HST, DVT etc). Now, there's a significant amount of shared components between the VEP and the CIG (and indeed all the 1963 design MK1 SR EMUs), and if you're tooling up one, large chunks of the basic CAD work so you might as well make provision for a CIG at the same time. I'd expect to see the CIG done in 00 as well as N, but there's just too much risk to go that way with a rival VEP in 00 (at this time). Get the first one out the gate right in 00, and the world's your (SR EMU) oyster.

[metadyneman]

 

Simple solution - buy Bachmann models and take your custom exclusively to them. Nowhere is it compulsory for people to buy the 4VEP offering from Hornby. If its so inaccurate and unacceptable I suggest said people buy a kit (which look worse in my opinion, the MJK cab end is hideous).

 

I (and many others) like the 4VEP and are pleased with it. I recently spoke to a retailer and they said the 4VEPs were rapidly disappearing. Traction tyres don't cause me any problems and the motor runs nicely, giving a realistic level of speed (if you wish to dispute that please see the video I posted on this thread earlier). I wanted an RTR NSE DC EMU suitable for my layout. I do not have the patience or will to go and build a rivet perfect 4VEP so I'm very happy Hornby have made a 4VEP. They've offered to correct the 1st class coach so the only thing I wasn't entirely happy about will be sorted.

 

Again in terms of price - I remember the 4VEP price being around £160 when it was first announced, I eventually picked it up for £40 less. Prices can change and RRP isn't always what retailers sell at.

 

Far from being a disgrace to modelling I think its a bold step into a new market from Hornby. None of the reviews I've read in numerous magazines seemed to think that either (though no doubt people think there's a media conspiracy there, so to justify their own views as true).

 

I reiterate the point - don't like the 4VEP, don't buy / own one and leave those of us who are satisfied customers to enjoy them. I sincerely hope all this negativity doesn't mean Hornby won't make further potential models (such as the 4CIG).

I'm sorry but with the greatest of respect I do not and won't subscribe to the view that the Hornby VEP is acceptable in any shape or form as it is. I have waited & waited for a ready to run VEP for the best part of 40 years and the offering that Hornby has produced is just so wrong on so many counts.. I sincerely hope Hornby don't do any more EMU's and leave Bachmann to do them properly. Yes a 4-CIG would be lovely but from Bachmann not Hornby!

 

I think I speak for the majority on here by saying what I have said about the VEP and it is simply not acceptable for us to be foisted with traction tyres on a model that was so eagerly awaited and wanted. The VEP is quite frankly rubbish!

[frobisher]

I think I speak for the majority on here...

 

That's a little presumptious isn't it?

 

...by saying what I have said about the VEP and it is simply not acceptable for us to be foisted with traction tyres on a model that was so eagerly awaited and wanted.

 

With all due respect, what did you expect Hornby were going to do? The drive system that was going into the VEP hadn't been anything close to a suprise since late 2010 when the first pictures surfaced. There's a Hornby way of doing some things, and the VEP was done the Hornby way (take a look at the 153 for instance). And as Venator has stated, his runs fine, as probably do most of the units shipped. What is undeniable is that there were huge QC issues with some of the initial batches and the disappointment that raised has perhaps focussed a lot more attention on the other faults and compromises within the model perhaps more so than normally happens. In fact doing so exposed some compromises that had been made on the 4CEP if you look back over this thread...

[S.A.C Martin]

In fact doing so exposed some compromises that had been made on the 4CEP if you look back over this thread...

 

If we really are going down that route, are we saying there's certain levels of acceptability with compromise? Because for me, guard irons being on the wrong end, a missing door handle, and clip in axles aren't compromises, that's bad design through and through. On those particular points the 4CEP gets it all right.

 

I do take your point RE the drive train in the 4CEP - I had not realized it was the same, and certainly it is by no means sub standard as a standard. I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you on the Limby unit, albeit purely on the basis of the traction tyres. That should never have been necessary, and to not have pickups on all wheels is a grave error, particularly in comparison to the 4CEP.

[Uk_Steve]

with respect Venator

 

some of the board members have had a bad experiance with the 4 VEP

 

so for me i will never say anything to them because i was in the same boat as them

and i know the feeling also some of the board members have done some hrs

trying to get it running more then i did with my 1st model also it helped me

not to play around with my model

 

 

However because of their work ie changing / and doing mods on there 4 VEP

i can see they are forced into a situation because warrantys and help from

Hornby is void

 

 

i can see the clear dilema

 

end of the day if all trains worked or either Hornby put there hands up on this situation

there would not be this divide of opinions which is mostly CON Hornby on this board

 

 

then again i do so some board members which have no desire to buy the train jump on the

bandwagon PRO or CON of Hornby at the same time adding to the mix

 

end of the day its Hornby to make future products reliable and price competitive from

this situation, do they take this approach is another matter but maybe they will

 

also to add for me a DCC Ready 4 coach train for less then £140 is not excessive

IMO at long as it works from the box time after time for each and every customer

Edited January 9, 2012 by Uk_Steve

[Pennine MC]

 

Simple solution - buy Bachmann models and take your custom exclusively to them. Nowhere is it compulsory for people to buy the 4VEP offering from Hornby.

 

 

I hardly dare to gild the lily of Simon's comprehensive and IMO very restrained reply to you Venator, but that works both ways - in no way (sic: nowhere) is it compulsory for you to open this thread and read the things you dont want to read.

 

...

 

I reiterate the point - don't like the 4VEP, don't buy / own one and leave those of us who are satisfied customers to enjoy them. I sincerely hope all this negativity doesn't mean Hornby won't make further potential models (such as the 4CIG).

 

Ah, but this is the hollow old paradox isnt it, that's never far away whenever RTR is criticised. If the VEP is indeed ripping off the shelves as you suggest, why would you or Hornby be worried about more EMU models in the future?

Edited January 9, 2012 by Pennine MC

[John M Upton]

This thread seems to be going round in circles.

 

Perhaps it was time it was locked until the blue/grey one comes along, give everyone a chance to calm down?

[S.A.C Martin]

A little unfair John. There will be others out there who doubtless would like to ask questions and relate their own experiences. Not to mention that this has hardly been the most explosive of debates - many agree on the fundamentals of the model's shortcomings and others are happy to live and let live.

 

What I object to is the dismissive nature of some of the posts regarding the well voiced, reasoned, and accurate commentary on the model's shortcomings.

 

That is where "debate" gets thrown out of the window for opinion based on less than objective reasoning.