Hornby Class 423 4-VEP

[adb968008]

One week in the wild, and 4 users posting pictures of the new vep already on the forum, but 1 month since the refurb ceps appears ive still not seen any pictures on here yet, and only a couple on you tube.

 

There is c£170 difference between the two 4 coach EMUs, maybe thats why ?

 

 

 

Edited February 1 by adb968008

[andyman7]

13 hours ago, adb968008 said:

One week in the wild, and 4 users posting pictures of the new vep already on the forum, but 1 month since the refurb beps appears ive still not seen any pictures on here yet, and only a couple on you tube.

 

There is c£170 difference between the two 4 coach EMUs, maybe thats why ?

 

 

 

Refurb CEPs? As it happens I managed to snaffle an NSE one for £388 from Model Railways Direct. Still a lot of money but not quite as steep and commuting on NSE refurb CEPs occupied over a decade of my life so pretty essential. I may be interested in others but only if there are deals available at some future point. 

[NIK]

Hi,

 

At last the nearest to an exhibition friendly box for a multiple unit.

 

My SWT VEP runs poorly (stuttering but not cogging) when slow in one direction but smooth in the other (Zimo MX634D decoder).

Tried adjusting the motor CVs to no avail. Lights not flickering but will try adding stay alive.

 

I think the wheel flanges are finer. The trailer coaches have 12mm dia wheels and the motor coach ~13.3mm dia.

 

I will have to start saving in the hope Hornby do the Blue Grey unrefurbished VEPs to the same standard.

 

Regards

 

Nik

[kintbury jon]

On 27/01/2024 at 15:00, andyman7 said:

 

I suspect that the cost of complete chassis parts will be less economical than simply buying an entire SWT or Southern model and swapping bodies. Can anyone confirm whether the bodyshells for the old model are a straight swap? The more ambitious may also want to graft new cab ends onto the older models...

Evening All,

 

Well I took the suggestion and bought an SWT one on eBay and it arrived today.  Have only so far compared the driving coaches.

 

End view out of the box.  My nse one is on the right (I have modified the paintwork at the top removing the black bit).  Are they different?  Yes a bit.  One criticism of the original model was the gangway door was too deep.  Can't quite decide whether it has been moved forward a bit.  If it has it's not a lot.

 

 

Roof differences are the vents are bigger.  The SWT one is on the right.

 

 

Bogies.  Now pin point and much more free running.  These are interchangeable so if they are available as spares they may be useful for upgrading.

 

Internally they look the same and the lugs on the body are in the same place.  I haven't checked it electrically but the plugs look identical.  The couplings are different and look more robust. 

 

Will look at the motor coach next!

[kintbury jon]

Interesting to compare the motor coaches.  My nse one weighs in at 305g.  I had added about 40g extra to it which improved power.

 

The SWT one comes in at 425g with no tyres.  Because of the differences in the motor position it will require the PCB to be swapped including the luggage racks.

SWT on the left.  Nse on the right.  Lugs are in the same place so won't be an issue.

 

Overall this looks like a good purchase.  I will offload the bodies and old chassis as whilst the SWT bodies are superior, I'm only interested in nse so happy to live with the body faults.

 

 

Edited February 1 by kintbury jon

[andyman7]

Thanks, useful. I assume you managed to nab one of the ebay ones with an additional 20% off - they'd all gone by the time I looked; I sourced an SWT one elsewhere with a loyalty point boost that takes £25 off a future purchase so not too bad a deal.

The power car does feel really heavyweight now - the overall model comes over as really good.

 

Looking back at how disappointing the originals were I think this is a really transformed model. Six or seven years ago the Bachman CEP and Hornby VEP were at similar prices but the Hornby one didn't match up in quality; now the VEP comes in at 25% cheaper than a non-sound CEP at RRP and the quality is pretty much identical.

 

Looking forward to some other liveries - it would be great to see early NSE on the non-facelifted bodyshell and I'd love to see a Connex one too. 

 

Edited February 1 by andyman7

[Red Fox]

Good luck getting the PCB out on the NSE one. You need to remove all the glazing to allow removal of the luggage racks so you can get the PCB out.

 

I'm pretty happy with my new models though not convinced the cab face is right.  I've unclipped the new wider gangway piece and the door is moulded proud of cab face but not by much. Still no where near where it should be but an improvement on the original version.

[Gwiwer]

Just looking carefully at @kintbury jon's images above my question remains "Have they got the face right?"  This was a contentious issue when the Vep first appeared.  It certainly wasn't spot-on.  But what is amiss?  

 

Comparing both images with an almost head-on image of 3417 captured at Waterloo recently the models appear to have the central gangway area more or less correct.  It is the outer areas which are astray.

 

We might only be talking in millimetres or even fractions thereof but it doesn't look quite like the real thing.  Even if it's fractions of millimetres then Bachmann got it right with their 4-TC which has the same front end as the 4-Vep.  

 

On the Vep the cab windows appear too narrow leaving the outer corner-pillar too wide.  The outer bottom corner of the window should align with the outer upper corner of the jumper recess which the models do not.  This means the jumper recesses are also too narrow and should extend farther towards the corner-pillars.  The horns appear skinny and the warning "flash" out of proportion, too large and too wide for its height.

 

I attach, with permission, a screenshot of my friend Colin Duff's review of the 4-TC which uses side-by-side images of a real 4-Vep against the model 4-TC.  The points made are salient and transferable to the Vep model; it also allows near head-on comparison which, if placed adjacent to a Vep model image (or even an actual model) will serve to illustrate the differences.  The 4-TC shows that the correct "face" can be modelled albeit it too has had a few minor dimensional issues such as "fat horns" 

 

Such things may still be deal-breakers for a few modellers when we are being asked to pay something in the region of £350 for a new 4-car unit.  

 

 

[kintbury jon]

I agree that the face still doesn't look right.  I have a couple of 4tc models and the face just looks right on them.  For me though, I can live with it.  The sides have always looked good.

 

PCB was a pain to swap.  I managed to prize the luggage racks out without the glazing removed.  It helps that the plastic is quite flexible.  Also, there is a piece of plastic attached to the inside of one of the gangways.  This was at different ends on each model so I have swapped them round.  Was glued quite hard on the nse one but not the SWT one.

 

The piece removed on the SWT body, now with the nse PCB.

 

Quick test of the motor coach with a DTC shows that I will need to change the PCB on all coaches as the internal lights that were yellow on the nse one are white on the SWT one!

 

All manageable though!

 

[Gwiwer]

1 minute ago, kintbury jon said:

I agree that the face still doesn't look right.  I have a couple of 4tc models and the face just looks right on them.  For me though, I can live with it

As will most Vep owners I'm sure.  I probably would too were I to invest but space and retirement finances both mitigate against that for now.  

 

I only weighed in because it clearly still isn't quite right, but could be, and because I am considered to be a knowledgable person (though by no means a subject matter expert) when it comes to SR EMU units.  

[kintbury jon]

Just finished swapping the other three PCB boards over.  A bit time consuming but not a problem really.  Interestingly there are more LEDs in the new models, so I suspect it may be quite bright inside!  

 

Bit late to give it a proper test now but might have a look at it tomorrow.

[Fireline]

11 hours ago, Red Fox said:

Good luck getting the PCB out on the NSE one. You need to remove all the glazing to allow removal of the luggage racks so you can get the PCB out.

 

It can be done without removing the glazing. I've done it several times.

[Denny]

I’ve been very tempted by the SWT version. Unfortunately not my chosen era and I must be strict with myself or I end up completely out of control! 
 

3417 would work though! Go on Hornby, you know it makes sense! 

Edited February 2 by Denny

[NIK]

Hi,

 

I spoke to a club member who has just bought two SWT 4 VEPs about the slow running problems I had with mine. His VEPs ran badly with ESU Lokpilot 5's until he did the autotune.

 

So I will try a Lokpilot 5 and see if it improves the running on mine.

He also said the wheels look rough and sound rough at speed.

 

I've now done a few runs of the VEP on a club DCC layout and it runs smoother with the three trailer coaches.

 

I help with a gradient and curve predictor which predicted the VEP should just go up a 1 in 40 gradient with 36 radius curve given a run up rather than a standing start.

 

The 4 VEP would go up the gradient with curve without signs of spinning.

However  I haven't measured the static friction of the trailer wheels yet and they have an effect on the prediction. The VEP would not haul any extra coaches up that bit of track although the club coaches to hand were not free running.

 

There was one two inch long stretch on the gradient with curve where the 4 VEP would not start without spinning its wheels but apart from that it was fine (the gradient/curve predictor does not presently deal with starting on an up gradient/curve).

 

Until the whole layout is up I wont try any speed tests - will it exceed the 130 scale mph my original 4 VEP does?.

 

Regards

 

Nik

[robert7111a]

The VEP front cab windows and jumper recesses should be curved on the outside to match the body profile.

 

But the black surrounds on the updated models hides this fault better than the original blue/blue & grey models. Otherwise the models are fantastic and revives my memories of travelling/commuting on them for 20-odd years.  I would always photograph 3514 when it turned up on a East Grinstead or south coast diagram and 3455 used to follow me around (or maybe the other way round) on trips to Aldershot and Reading and spotting at Clapham "back in the day"

 

Perhaps I should just buy another all-blue 4VEP and make up a 8VAB - a unit just before my time.... I'm sure I have an RB somewhere in my collection.... 

 

 

[andyman7]

One thing I have noticed on the SWT version is that the cantrail orange line is missing on the cab fronts of one of the DTC vehicles - it's there on the other end. They all seem to be like this (including mine). Not sure whether 3455 actually was like this or if it's a production error.

 

 

[robert7111a]

Front end of 3514; one of my favourite units back in the day...

 

Now, what are the chances of Hornby doing Gordon Pettitt - or at least an updated version of the all-blue version...

 

 

Edited February 2 by robert7111a
adding more text

[NXEA!]

On 01/02/2024 at 20:31, Gwiwer said:

Just looking carefully at @kintbury jon's images above my question remains "Have they got the face right?"  This was a contentious issue when the Vep first appeared.  It certainly wasn't spot-on.  But what is amiss?  

 

Comparing both images with an almost head-on image of 3417 captured at Waterloo recently the models appear to have the central gangway area more or less correct.  It is the outer areas which are astray.

 

We might only be talking in millimetres or even fractions thereof but it doesn't look quite like the real thing.  Even if it's fractions of millimetres then Bachmann got it right with their 4-TC which has the same front end as the 4-Vep.  

 

On the Vep the cab windows appear too narrow leaving the outer corner-pillar too wide.  The outer bottom corner of the window should align with the outer upper corner of the jumper recess which the models do not.  This means the jumper recesses are also too narrow and should extend farther towards the corner-pillars.  The horns appear skinny and the warning "flash" out of proportion, too large and too wide for its height.

 

I attach, with permission, a screenshot of my friend Colin Duff's review of the 4-TC which uses side-by-side images of a real 4-Vep against the model 4-TC.  The points made are salient and transferable to the Vep model; it also allows near head-on comparison which, if placed adjacent to a Vep model image (or even an actual model) will serve to illustrate the differences.  The 4-TC shows that the correct "face" can be modelled albeit it too has had a few minor dimensional issues such as "fat horns" 

 

Such things may still be deal-breakers for a few modellers when we are being asked to pay something in the region of £350 for a new 4-car unit.  

 

 

It’s interesting how people’s perception differs because I think the face of the new Hornby VEP looks more convincing than the TC to my eye! 

[D3489gibson]

4 hours ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

I spoke to a club member who has just bought two SWT 4 VEPs about the slow running problems I had with mine. His VEPs ran badly with ESU Lokpilot 5's until he did the autotune.

 

 

Can you elaborate on the autotune bit please?? Ive got a Loksound V5 fitted to my 3514 and we were running it on Folly Lane this evening but it did seem a bit juddery at times.

 

Cheers!

 

Nathan

[NIK]

10 hours ago, D3489gibson said:

 

Can you elaborate on the autotune bit please?? Ive got a Loksound V5 fitted to my 3514 and we were running it on Folly Lane this evening but it did seem a bit juddery at times.

 

Cheers!

 

Nathan

 

Hi,

 

Its section 11.1.4 of the Lokpilot 5 manual that deals with 'autotune'.

 

I don't know if this also works on rolling roads as in that case most of the loco has no momentum.

 

Regards

 

Nik

Edited February 3 by NIK

[kintbury jon]

Just given both of a VEPs a test to check all is fine.  The new version is certainly brighter inside with white LEDs instead of yellow.  I'd say this is good for the modern ones as they were refurbished with fluorescent lights.  The small seating section by the guards area is obviously dark and looks a little odd so might ponder whether to do anything about it.  Running wise it is so much better than the original version.

 

A worthwhile project and I am pleased I have upgraded the NSE unit.  Just need to offload the SWT one now!

Edited February 4 by kintbury jon

[Southernman46]

Interesting analysis above - I hadn't realised that the original bogie can take a pin-point axle - need to check that out. I paid >£100 for my original B&G one in 2015 and it's OK - the face isn't perfect but better than anything I could do - I keep it sandwiched between two 4-CEP's (as they often were) anyway in an effort to assist it's progress.

IMHO Hornby deserve a modicum of respect for actually producing it and we've also been lucky enough to get the BIL, HAL & BEL and a decent 71 from them.

[NIK]

Hi,

 

I've just noticed on my SWT new 4 VEP power car the slow running going forward is a lot better when the power bogie is at the 'front' than when it is at the back.

 

Does the great weight over the motor bogie crush dirt on the top of the rails so the pick up on the trailing bogie is better?.

 

Regards

 

Nik

[andyman7]

8 hours ago, kintbury jon said:

Just given both of a VEPs a test to check all is fine.  The new version is certainly brighter inside with white LEDs instead of yellow.  I'd say this is good for the modern ones as they were refurbished with fluorescent lights.  The small seating section by the guards area is obviously dark and looks a little odd so might ponder whether to do anything about it.  Running wise it is so much better than the original version.

 

A worthwhile project and I am pleased I have upgraded the NSE unit.  Just need to offload the SWT one now!

 

That 'dark' saloon affects the Bachmann refurbished CEPs and 150s too. The very latest newly tooled Bachmann DMUs (117, 121, 158) have low floor coreless motors but with these ones modified from earlier tooling it's a shortcoming we'll have to live with. If they produce pre-facelift liveries it won't be an issue - I'd quite like early NSE as the facelifting was done during NSE days and they exist in that livery with the early full brake van.  

 

7 hours ago, Southernman46 said:

Interesting analysis above - I hadn't realised that the original bogie can take a pin-point axle - need to check that out. I paid >£100 for my original B&G one in 2015 and it's OK - the face isn't perfect but better than anything I could do - I keep it sandwiched between two 4-CEP's (as they often were) anyway in an effort to assist it's progress.

IMHO Hornby deserve a modicum of respect for actually producing it and we've also been lucky enough to get the BIL, HAL & BEL and a decent 71 from them.

Yes, amazing to think that one retailer sold off the blue grey VEP at £99. I think it was a classic Hornby stock-dumping cash flow thing but it's a shame they couldn't have fed them out a bit more steadily!

Edited February 4 by andyman7

[markw]

19 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

The very latest newly tooled Bachmann DMUs (117, 121, 158) have low floor coreless motors 

 

We have been through this before, they DO NOT have coreless motors.

Edited February 4 by markw
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