Hornby Class 423 4-VEP

[43179]

A quick mash-up of Hornbys before and after shot of the VEP Cab that may be usefull.

Unfortunately looking at it  head on doesn’t show up the issue of the depth of the gangway door though.

 

Jon

 

 

 

 

[griffgriff]

17 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

I don't wish to rain on anyone's party, but I suspect the answer to the last question is no. Just as Bachmann haven't sold the Buffet coach for a 4 BEP separately, they need folk to buy the new offering not improve/ modify the old one at home!

 

John.

Not quite…. What your suggesting is changing rather than improving. A rather better president would be the occasion when Bachmann replaced the EPB bodies because of incorrect numbering.  There is nothing wrong with the CEP but there was something definitely wrong with the VEP.

 

Griff

[Shedmaster]

34 minutes ago, 43179 said:

Ah but they’re all mounted flush into the door- the headlight on both Hornby samples,  protrudes from it which was only seen at one end on the preserved unit.

As the great Kimon Sohler once said 

“Details Details Details”

 

jon

Not forgetting….”It’s for KEEPS”! Lols….

 

What ‘we’ sell is happiness!

 

Shed.

[RFS]

1 hour ago, 43179 said:

Ah but they’re all mounted flush into the door- the headlight on both Hornby samples,  protrudes from it which was only seen at one end on the preserved unit.

As the great Kimon Sohler once said 

“Details Details Details”

 

jon

Has this been fed back to Hornby then? Might still be time to correct the issue.

[Wolf27]

3 hours ago, Shedmaster said:

Not forgetting….”It’s for KEEPS”! Lols….

 

What ‘we’ sell is happiness!

 

Shed.

This is not the standard we are looking for.

[Wolf27]

3 hours ago, Shedmaster said:

Not forgetting….”It’s for KEEPS”! Lols….

 

What ‘we’ sell is happiness!

 

Shed.

This is not the standard we are looking for.

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, Wolf27 said:

This is not the standard we are looking for.

 

1 hour ago, Wolf27 said:

This is not the standard we are looking for.

 

Double standards?

 

[Mike Storey]

5 hours ago, RFS said:

 

Many 4VEPs had the headlight - for example 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/39254835122/in/album-72157629191176988/

 

And skip forward and backward and all the 4VEPs in Robert Carroll's excellent album have the headlight. 

 

Only after around 1989. None of them had a headlight  prior to that, which you will see for yourself if you go back more than 6 or so pics on the very same album. I worked with them throughout the 70's and most of the 80's.

 

As for the cab ends, they are still not perfect, but when running the old model (when it ran) you couldn't really tell. It certainly looked enough of a VEP for me. If they have corrected most of the other problems, then I will get my wallet out, again.

 

[andyman7]

5 hours ago, Geep7 said:

 

I thought the gangway door still didn't look quite right. All in all, I still think Bachmann made a better go at the front end for the 4-TC. Perhaps it's just one of those complex shapes that really pushes the limits of plastic moulds?

 

 

5 hours ago, Geep7 said:

 

I thought the gangway door still didn't look quite right. All in all, I still think Bachmann made a better go at the front end for the 4-TC. Perhaps it's just one of those complex shapes that really pushes the limits of plastic moulds?

 

Although there's at least one modeller who's (excellent) work is on Twitter who carves the Bachmann cabs off and replaces them with MJT ones because 'the Bachmann ones aren't right'...it's ironic that there's a moulding challenge given that the cabs on the real thing were fibreglass mouldings!

 

12 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Only after around 1989. None of them had a headlight  prior to that, which you will see for yourself if you go back more than 6 or so pics on the very same album. I worked with them throughout the 70's and most of the 80's.

 

As for the cab ends, they are still not perfect, but when running the old model (when it ran) you couldn't really tell. It certainly looked enough of a VEP for me. If they have corrected most of the other problems, then I will get my wallet out, again.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, the new release is of a facelifted unit, guards compartment reduced, headlight fitted etc. So this version will not do for a pre-1980s model and nothing earlier than the later NSE darker blue livery with radius curved cab ends to the toothpaste stripes. 
 

As with Mike, it does the job for me. Certainly in comparison to wrestling with MTK kits!

[NIK]

Hi,

 

I think its excellent that the roof ventilators are to be made larger, the driving coach chassis made of metal/traction tyres removed and the high friction slot bearings replaced with pin point bearings.

 

I'm not sure the pizza cutter flanges have been reduced but the wheel sets may be easier to replace with finer ones once the bearings are pin point.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Geep7]

44 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

Although there's at least one modeller who's (excellent) work is on Twitter who carves the Bachmann cabs off and replaces them with MJT ones because 'the Bachmann ones aren't right'...it's ironic that there's a moulding challenge given that the cabs on the real thing were fibreglass mouldings!

Tbh, even the MJT ones aren't 100% right either. There is a chap on FB (I think he might post on here too) who uses an amalgam of all 3 which look really good.

Imho, the best "63-type" EMU front end i've seen was that done by the late Colin Parks on his 4-Cig.

[NickL2008]

That is a pity as I was maybe thinking of preordering one, but those cab ends still dont look right, with the jumper cable recessess they lack the subtle curve on the outside and are just flat which is what makes them look odd. the vents to me look a little "squashed" as well .That headlight would be a nightmere to remove without a repaint on the front, a shame Hornby havnt addressed that, despite their ES post acknowledging their initial release had errors on it. So itll be a no fro mme unless they correct these things

 

NL

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

I think its excellent that the roof ventilators are to be made larger, the driving coach chassis made of metal/traction tyres removed and the high friction slot bearings replaced with pin point bearings.

 

Regards

 

Nick

Reading the article over on the Engine Shed, the pin point bearings are only to be fitted to the power bogie.

[Ian J.]

The cab front still looks off. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, both B and H keep trying to fix the issues with their models of this style of cab end by tinkering with their existing tooling. The trouble is in both cases there are fundamental flaws that can only be fixed to a limited degree. What it really needs is a new set of CADs, done correctly, and a whole new tooling.

 

I'm wondering if a 3D print in FDM or resin could be done. However, I'm also not confident that, in both cases of the 4TC and 4VEP, that the models' such a 'correct' front end would be attached to are actually correctly proportioned.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Ian J.
Clarity of Grammar with Additional Punctuation

[NIK]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

Reading the article over on the Engine Shed, the pin point bearings are only to be fitted to the power bogie.

Hi,

 

Ah - that's a shame - I thought the slot bearings on the non driven coaches were the main cause of the need for traction tyres. 

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Ceptic]

13 minutes ago, NickL2008 said:

That is a pity as I was maybe thinking of preordering one, but those cab ends still dont look right, with the jumper cable recessess they lack the subtle curve on the outside and are just flat which is what makes them look odd. the vents to me look a little "squashed" as well .That headlight would be a nightmere to remove without a repaint on the front, a shame Hornby havnt addressed that, despite their ES post acknowledging their initial release had errors on it. So itll be a no fro mme unless they correct these things

 

NL

Not only did the cable recesses feature a subtle curved outer edge, the front cab widows did also, tapering in from bottom (1'-6"/457mm. wide) to top (1'-5"/432mm. wide). In plan view (Looking down) the cab ends were one continuous curve from rounded corner to rounded corner, not made up of three flat panels. 

 

Regards.

[adb968008]

On 28/01/2022 at 16:22, Gwiwer said:

Despite rather liking the livery I do question the wisdom of producing the Southern version simply because it was only carried by one unit.  That means there is no scope for reissues with a different number and no opportunity for those of us able to do so to run more than one unit in multiple from the same batch.  

 

A plain blue in origoinal condition to the revised and apparently much-improved specification would be of interest here simply because the original was so poorly executed and was avoided.  

Kind of agree.

However many of the tighter walleted types may just forgoe swapping a blue one for another better blue one.

 

I personally would like to see a Connex one, but the Southern green VEP did stand out and got a bit of a following, a bit like the EMR purple power car.

 

In addition to the recessed headlight, 3514 in Southern green had two bars over each droplight window, to prevent heads hanging out, like many of the Connex units.

Edited February 4, 2022 by adb968008

[leopardml2341]

13 hours ago, adb968008 said:

However many of the tighter walleted types may just forgoe swapping a blue one for another better blue one.

 

 

I won't be swapping, and it's not because I'm one of 'the tighter walleted types' - which incidently is perhaps a tad impolite?

[adb968008]

51 minutes ago, leopardml2341 said:

I won't be swapping, and it's not because I'm one of 'the tighter walleted types' - which incidently is perhaps a tad impolite?

Fwiw I have  blue one and I wont be swapping it for another blue one either, if there had been a choice.

 

So a pattern is being established, which in a growing trend could suggest making a new blue one may not make sense.

 

That was the point trying to be made.

 

I intend to buy the new ones though, just not duplicates of what I already have.

Edited February 4, 2022 by adb968008

[john new]

I was disappointed to see the blue livery not being done, seems commercial madness to me to do a one-unit only livery (one per purchaser) as @Gwiwer wrote when they could (theoretically) sell several of the blue liveried one’s to each purchaser. All I can think of is too many old version blue one’s still in various warehouses unsold.

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by john new

[NIK]

28 minutes ago, john new said:

I was disappointed to see the blue livery not being done, seems commercial madness to me to do a one-unit only livery (one per purchaser) as @Gwiwer wrote when they could (theoretically) sell several of the blue liveried one’s to each purchaser. All I can think of is too many old version blue one’s still in various warehouses unsold.

 

Hi,

 

Olivia's trains website says they have over 10 Blue 4 VEPs. I've noticed second hand Blue 4 VEPs seem to be in the majority on Ebay the last couple of years.

 

I think Bachmann missed out BR Blue on the launch of the Class 117 DMMU and 2-HAP EMU.

 

Maybe if Hornby make some Blue/Blue-Grey/NSE 4 VEPs in the future it might be possible with body swaps to run an eight or 12 car model train with outer driving cars with the new cab end windows and the old style driving ends in the middle of the set where they are less conspicuous.

 

I guess producing liveries in 2022 that have not been done before on the 4 VEP makes it easier to differentiate the updated mouldings from the originals. It may also suit the collectors market having new liveries.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[john new]

Doesn’t help people though, like me, who didn’t buy the first version. 

[leopardml2341]

9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Fwiw I have  blue one and I wont be swapping it for another blue one either, if there had been a choice.

 

So a pattern is being established, which in a growing trend could suggest making a new blue one may not make sense.

 

That was the point trying to be made.

 

I intend to buy the new ones though, just not duplicates of what I already have.

#confused

 

I do not understand your rationale at all, nor the point you are trying to make. Maybe you can afford to buy a new one because you have sufficient disposable income so to do. You could make that point without denigrating those who do not have that luxury.

 

That is the point I was making. To put it bluntly, suggesting that others might not buy a new one because they may be of the tight walleted persuasion (sic) is at best patronising  and at worst downright insulting.

 

Let's leave it at that.

[adb968008]

18 minutes ago, leopardml2341 said:

#confused

 

I do not understand your rationale at all, nor the point you are trying to make. Maybe you can afford to buy a new one because you have sufficient disposable income so to do. You could make that point without denigrating those who do not have that luxury.

 

That is the point I was making. To put it bluntly, suggesting that others might not buy a new one because they may be of the tight walleted persuasion (sic) is at best patronising  and at worst downright insulting.

 

Let's leave it at that.

I think your taking it too seriously.

Have you never read a post on here of someone complaining about prices ?
 

Everyone is tight walletted about something sometime, be it the price of a pint of milk or a mortgage. Its human nature.

 

The point i’m making (And I am as guilty as anyone else), is just because someone makes a newer one, doesn't mean you have to buy it. Very often I see a newer ones come out, to pages of complaints about the price and sticking with the old one… thats what I mean by tight walletted.

 

I see no reason for Hornby to make a new blue vep. I dont think many will part with their old vep. Simple as that.

 

Equally, you could use the word frugal, mindful or conversely those buying it  could be fools with their money for parting with cash so easily etc.
 

I think your reading more into it than I, and clearly your sensitive about it, nothing sinister is intended.

 

as you said lets leave it at that.

Edited February 5, 2022 by adb968008

[griffgriff]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I think your taking it too seriously.

Have you never read a post on here of someone complaining about prices ?
 

Everyone is tight walletted about something sometime, be it the price of a pint of milk or a mortgage. Its human nature.

 

The point i’m making (And I am as guilty as anyone else), is just because someone makes a newer one, doesn't mean you have to buy it. Very often I see a newer ones come out, to pages of complaints about the price and sticking with the old one… thats what I mean by tight walletted.

 

I see no reason for Hornby to make a new blue vep. I dont think many will part with their old vep. Simple as that.

 

Equally, you could use the word frugal, mindful or conversely those buying it  could be fools with their money for parting with cash so easily etc.
 

I think your reading more into it than I, and clearly your sensitive about it, nothing sinister is intended.

 

as you said lets leave it at that.

I would have used the phrase….. cutting the cloth.

 

Griff

Edited February 5, 2022 by griffgriff
Grammar …. Only just woken up lol