What locomotives and rolling stock should be produced first?

[Jeff Smith]

IMO a manufacturer with experience of this scale could most easily produce a simple (J94) British outline, probably using or adapting an existing mechanism.

 

My concern with a manufacturer trying a new scale/gauge is the lack of experience, ie Heljan 009!

[Hobby]

41 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

My concern with a manufacturer trying a new scale/gauge is the lack of experience, ie Heljan 009!

 

In mitigation I don't think the choice of prototype was the best for a new scale/gauge combo though. All the others chose more wisely!

[D9020 Nimbus]

2 hours ago, rodshaw said:

I think we can rule Bachmann out of the speculation anyway. A rep of theirs at a show I went to on Saturday said they are far too heavily into N gauge to invest in TT. (Of course, he didn't put it in writing!)

Probably true. But they also said they'd never do the Midland Pullman. Nor overhead electric locos in N gauge…

[britishcolumbian]

3 hours ago, andythenorth said:

Arnold would probably have the shortest odds if money was being placed on this*.

 

In alphabetical order, Busch, Piko, Roco and Tillig all possible outsiders with existing European 1:120 ranges.  Long odds.

 

* In OO/HO Hornby seem to use a broad-brush segmentation by country of prototype origin for Hornby, Electrotren, Jouef and Rivarossi.  Not sure if that applies to Arnold N / TT though.

I'd also wager on Arnold... HOWEVER

 

Another possibility is MTB of Czechia. Reasons:

 

1. They *did* produce the only RTR North American TT scale locomotive available in recent years, so they're willing to leap at unproven markets.

 

2. They are focussed heavily on the Czech/Slovak, Polish, Hungarian, and Romanian markets - they've produced the Romanian Sulzer diesel (060-DA). There are ex-British locomotives in operation in (some of) these countries. So it's well within the realm of possibility that MTB may produce one of these primarily with the Central European market in mind, and incidentally produce some for the British market, sales of which would be icing for them.

Edited August 15, 2022 by britishcolumbian

[andythenorth]

Bulmarket 87 then? 😛

 

I did pick the less obvious answer, for the lolz. 

[Ravenser]

6 hours ago, andythenorth said:

Arnold would probably have the shortest odds if money was being placed on this*.

 

In alphabetical order, Busch, Piko, Roco and Tillig all possible outsiders with existing European 1:120 ranges.  Long odds.

 

* In OO/HO Hornby seem to use a broad-brush segmentation by country of prototype origin for Hornby, Electrotren, Jouef and Rivarossi.  Not sure if that applies to Arnold N / TT though.

 

Given that Peco are in on this with track, Tillig are most unlikely to figure. They already make TT track.

 

The explanation of Hornby's branding is that those brands were the recognised national market-leader in Britain, Spain, France and Italy respectively. Arnold is an established smaller-scale (=N) brand in Germany - so German TT naturally went under the Arnold brand.

 

Long long ago Hornby marketed N gauge models from Trix in Britain as Hornby Minitrix. If Hornby throw their hat in the TT-120 ring at some point I'd expect something like "Arnold by Hornby",  in brown boxes. With T-numbers. The N gauge Brighton Belle was released under the Arnold brand, but in Britain I would expect a link to the Hornby name somewhere

 

Roco and Piko are probably the most likely outsiders to make a serious play in British outline TT-120. Both might welcome a range of TT track not made by Tillig.

 

And MTB might just be Gaugemaster's shadowy partner in their potential 66 project

[britishcolumbian]

2 hours ago, andythenorth said:

Bulmarket 87 then? 😛

 

I did pick the less obvious answer, for the lolz. 

I was thinking the 86, but a 56 is an outside possibility too since there are a few in Hungary.

[John Towers]

You know, this TT120 just might work. I think there could be modellers out there who want to have fine scale layouts but don't have the skills to build them (step forward me): some who have decided that Z and N are too small: downsizers who can no longer accommodate a decent sized OO layout: nostalgists (is there such a word?) who loved TT for its own sake: or people who just want something different. Who would have thought, not that many years ago, that O gauge ready to run would make a comeback and we now also have a few Gauge One and Gauge 3 ready to run models.  British diesel and electric locomotives that are also seen on the Continent (particularly Classes 66, used all over Europe, and 86 used in Poland and Hungary, but there are others...) could sell quite well in TT120 both on the Continent and in the UK. USA tank steam locos were used a lot in Eastern Europe as they were built in Yugoslavia for several years, and Eastern Europe is good TT country. We might have to bodge freight stock from existing European models, though Arnold do a British gauge ferry van. Some of the long wheelbase Continental four wheelers might work as the basis for 1970s and 1980s British four wheelers. British gauge CargoWaggon, Transfesa or VTG wagons have appeared throughout Europe and sales of model versions in TT might do OK.  Major problem could be British passenger coaches, which generally aren't used in Europe apart from the Mark Three sleeping cars that went to Denmark. Might need to rely on kits for the likes of Mark Ones and Mark Twos. Could bogies from, say, Tillig be adapted? I had thought that, at this early stage, the ready to run manufacturers would fight shy of models that could only be used in a British context so bravo to Heljan for working on a Class 31!

 

[Hobby]

For the British Market I recon Mk1 coaches are a definite, they've been around since the 50s, are still used on the mainline and are a heritage railway go-to. What more do you want!

 

(Oh, and they'd go with that 31!)

[andythenorth]

41 minutes ago, Hobby said:

For the British Market I recon Mk1 coaches are a definite.

If I knew anything about research, design, engineering prototypes, injection moulding, decoration, assembly, QC, shipping, import paperwork, warehousing and fulfilment, also customer service, customer support, warranty repair, distributing via the retail chain, and finance for manufacturing, and also which of the contract manufacturers are good and how to work with them, and manage disruption to supply chains etc.

 

Then I'd risk some capital on getting a BG designed*, and some sort of SO / CK type thing (I don't know much about Mk1s either), and then put them up for pre-order/crowd-funding.

 

As it is I don't know about any of those things and now is not a good time to learn about them 😛 

 

So hope someone else does some Mk1s. 😉

 

* I just like BGs, and parcels trains. And they'd go with a 31. In multiple liveries.

 

Maybe a retirement project 😛  So in about 20 years time... 

Edited August 19, 2022 by andythenorth

[britishcolumbian]

12 hours ago, John Towers said:

USA tank steam locos were used a lot in Eastern Europe as they were built in Yugoslavia for several years

TT is *very* fringe in Yugoslavia - it's more a force in the ex COMECON countries that traded a lot with the GDR.

[MartinRS]

A NER Class E1 which would appeal to LNER modellers. If it was sold in BR livery I suspect Confused of Swindon might also buy it.

[D9020 Nimbus]

The LNER is a problem. They didn't go in for standardisation until very late, and some standard locos weren't very widespread. The problem is the E1/J72 wouldn't appeal to modellers of the GN area (who'd rather have a J50) or the GE (J69). That's probably why Hornby have opted for the J94, but that's no use for the pre-war era.

 

Until the Sonic J50 comes on to the market, there hasn't been one LNER tank loco available since the Farish J94, last made about 15 years ago.

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

The LNER is a problem. They didn't go in for standardisation until very late, and some standard locos weren't very widespread. The problem is the E1/J72 wouldn't appeal to modellers of the GN area (who'd rather have a J50) or the GE (J69). That's probably why Hornby have opted for the J94, but that's no use for the pre-war era.

 

Until the Sonic J50 comes on to the market, there hasn't been one LNER tank loco available since the Farish J94, last made about 15 years ago.

 

Why not? They had then at Doncaster.

 

The J72s got virtually everywhere on the LNER including Merseyside and North Wales. Also Scotland, East Anglia and Stratford in London. I doubt there was a more widespread LNER class apart from maybe the B1s.

 

After the delivery of the last J72s in 1951, the allocations was: Alexandra Dock (14), York (11), Middlesbrough 10), West Hartlepool (10), Gateshead (9), Borough Gardens (7), Heaton (7), Darlington (6), Kittybrewster (6), Sunderland (5), Blaydon (4), Tyne Dock (4), West Auckland (3), Dairycoates (3), Bidston (3), Neville Hill (2), Eastfield (2), Doncaster (2), Ipswich (2), Hexham (1), Scarborough (1), and Wrexham (1).

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/J/j72.php

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

18 hours ago, MartinRS said:

A NER Class E1 which would appeal to LNER modellers. If it was sold in BR livery I suspect Confused of Swindon might also buy it.

 

See post above. Worked in GWR territory in North Wales and The Wirral so no confusion needed.

 

At least one was shedded at Birkenhead, 68714.

 

 

Jason

[MartinRS]

8 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

See post above. Worked in GWR territory in North Wales and The Wirral so no confusion needed.

 

At least one was shedded at Birkenhead, 68714.

 

 

Jason

 

Ok, thanks for the information. I was being lighhearted about the safety valve. I had to do a double-take when I first saw a photograph of the prototype.

[Taigatrommel]

Now the Hornby announcement is out and has been discussed at length, I don't feel quite so bad wishlisting.  Personally, I think they've made good choices in terms of making a splash and launching the scale, a much bolder program than I imagined it would be.  It seems most of the range is items they've developed since the move to Chinese production, and as such it's a reasonably supposition that this is as they still have easy access to the research carried out and drawings made - this is firmly the era of CAD after all!  I hope the 37, 47 and 73 are indications of a willingness to go beyond what's been produced in 00 rather than a designer having been handed Lima models and told to work off them...!  Hornby are very much going for items that are popular, and any choices for other brands would have to consider that - the more obvious it seeems, the more likely Hornby will gazump them.

 

Given the splash Hornby are making, I feel like my previous thoughts of cautiously choosing models with crossover into existing TT markets is irrelevant.  The first of those has been covered by Hornby anyway (66), and another (56) is something they've produced in 00 so is entirely possible.

 

Anyway, my bias is very much diesel and electric trains, so opinions will reflect the area of railways I have knowledge about - forgive any misjudgements about what steam would be good.

 

Before getting into locos, the coach ranges ... I hope Hornby would produce mk1 FK and RB.  The latter can run very nicely with the mk2E/Fs as well.  Seconds and parcels (presumably BG) are already announced.  Given the 00 mk1 range, these are most likely on the cards already.

 

A GWR autocoach of some flavour.  Is it already waiting in the wings with someone?  Peco most probably made informed choices when selecting GWR building kits as their launch items.

 

For Southern coaches, this ignoramus would presume Bulleids as a good first choice.  However, I know Hornby have made Maunsells in 00 recently.

 

16 ton mineral wagon.  So obvious I think Hornby must have it in their plans.

 

LNER/BR 21 ton brake van.  Well, ditto.

 

A bogie bolster to create some visual mix next to the vans and opens.

 

Long wheelbase speedlink wagons, IIRC these have a common chassis.  I'm thinking things like OBA, OCA, VDA.  Hornby haven't made a new tooling of these since their initial appearance in the 80s, so there's a chance they're not in the plans yet.

 

For a competitor, how about an FNA nuclear flask wagon, as produced by Bachmann/Farish?  They seem popular when they're available!

 

For motive power, the first thing that's not firmly mentioned that I would feel sensible is a 1st generation DMU.  Much as my heart says 108, my head says 101 - allocated to every region but the southern, and only outlived by class 121.  Again, not a model that's been tooled up by Hornby this century.  While Hornby haven't tooled up any 1st gen units in the 21st century, they've made the 153 - that adds something for the 90s and onwards to play a supporting role to the inter-city trains already announced.

 

Diesel loco wise, I feel like I'd just be listing everything.  I guess my first choice that I felt Hornby might not have worked on would be a class 20.  From Hornby, beyond what's already been mentioned in their brochure, I would imagine them homing in on iconic classes, Deltics and Westerns for starters.

 

For steam, a GWR 14xx can join those Peco buildings.  A Jinty, on the basis that Hornby haven't made one to current standards.  I suspect Hornby already have an LMS 8F planned.  On the subject of the 8F, TT:120 opens up possibilities of modelling those places were 8Fs rubbed shoulders with German designs, such as Turkey.   Beyond this, I don't really know which steam locos were most widespread or popular!

 

The game has changed, and I love it...

[mdvle]

On 14/10/2022 at 07:59, Taigatrommel said:

Now the Hornby announcement is out and has been discussed at length, I don't feel quite so bad wishlisting.  Personally, I think they've made good choices in terms of making a splash and launching the scale, a much bolder program than I imagined it would be

 

The problem is that it is too bold.

 

It is too much product all at once for a scale with no market (yet) in the UK.

 

The decision to launch such an extensive range, and to only sell direct, has already caused Heljan to withdraw from TT:120 and it is doubtful at this point if anyone else will enter the market.

 

If you are a retailer you won't be interested in stocking anything TT:120 going forward - because 99% of the product is only available from Hornby direct.

 

So while we will need to wait and see how this plays out my feeling is this has killed UK outline TT:120 - at least in terms of what many of us here on RMweb were hoping for.

 

[Jeff Smith]

2 hours ago, mdvle said:

So while we will need to wait and see how this plays out my feeling is this has killed UK outline TT:120 - at least in terms of what many of us here on RMweb were hoping for.

 

I think not, judging by the number of posts in the Hornby thread there is considerable interest!

[Hobby]

8 hours ago, mdvle said:

So while we will need to wait and see how this plays out my feeling is this has killed UK outline TT:120 - at least in terms of what many of us here on RMweb were hoping for.

 

 

As others have pointed out, it isn't aimed at many people on here!

[whart57]

8 hours ago, mdvle said:

The decision to launch such an extensive range, and to only sell direct, has already caused Heljan to withdraw from TT:120 and it is doubtful at this point if anyone else will enter the market.

 

 

Heljan withdrew because Hornby were going to produce the same locos. Now given that it would have been hard if not impossible for Hornby to react to the Heljan announcements of only a couple of months ago with competing offers and that collusion between companies on future product lines is illegal  we are left with the observation that Heljan did pick some no-brainers. An 08, well who would not have thought of that? The J94 is no more than a mention as a beyond phase 4 possibility in Hornby's publicity material. If Heljan weren't confident of having that out and established before Hornby turned up with one in five years time then they weren't working very hard on it. Kohler may well try and spook the competition by saying Hornby will do their own version of a loco, but Kohler is also not so daft as to commit money to something that has already taken the bulk of likely orders from someone else.

[longchap]

On 16/06/2022 at 17:46, woodenhead said:

but I should be able to hide a topic I don't want to see and I cannot.

Yes you can! Just go to the top of the page and hit the red highlighted banner: `Ignore this topic`. A most useful and thoughtful feature.

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, longchap said:

Yes you can! Just go to the top of the page and hit the red highlighted banner: `Ignore this topic`. A most useful and thoughtful feature.

Some topics cannot be hidden when set up, think it depends where it has been created - this one does now have that feature and I did hide it some time back to rescue me from the TT hell that is now engulfing us, thanks for quoting be back into it. 😆

 

Going back to TT ignorance in 5, 4, 3, 2......

[Steamport Southport]

On 14/10/2022 at 07:16, MartinRS said:

 

Ok, thanks for the information. I was being lighhearted about the safety valve. I had to do a double-take when I first saw a photograph of the prototype.

 

More excuses to get one! They do have the cute factor.

 

I've always had a soft spot for the J72 from when I saw Joem at the Derwent Valley when I was about 7 and then Mainline released one. If people are suggesting one for TT then I could easily be persuaded.

 

 

Jason

Edited October 16, 2022 by Steamport Southport

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, whart57 said:

Heljan withdrew because Hornby were going to produce the same locos.

 

Unlikely.

 

Would they cancel their announced product for that reason - yes.

 

But withdraw entirely from TT:120 - no.

 

To me the withdrawl from TT:120 entirely is because Hornby is through the large size of their announcement making it clear - much like products like the Terrier - that Hornby believes that TT:120 is "Hornby" and that they won't welcome anyone else into that market.

 

5 hours ago, whart57 said:

Now given that it would have been hard if not impossible for Hornby to react to the Heljan announcements of only a couple of months ago with competing offers

 

Actually quite easy.

 

Heljan announced their 31 4 months ago (June 14th).  Hornby's 31 is a vague phase III future release - say 2nd half of 2023.  So well over a year to bring to market with the research already done thanks to the existing OO 31.

 

And note much like the Titfield Thunderbolt all we have are some livery drawings in a catalog...

 

So yes it could have been deliberate.