The gradual return of steam after Network Rail's steam ban and the dry weather

[duncan]

I wonder how many of the upset photographers would be driving to the spot they want & parking their cars on the tinder dry verges.  Nothing like a hot exhaust pipe, especially a catalysed one to set fire to long verge grass. 

 

Then they would be blaming their insurance company for not paying out & charging them for the damage to crops etc & fire brigade costs.

 

 

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

 

 

I don't know about The Jacobite though, there's no times for it on RTT.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C26800/2022-07-26/detailed

[6990WitherslackHall]

15 hours ago, jamieb said:

Where do you get that info from? I've got tickets for the Dalesman tomorrow and I was informed this morning it would be diesel

I got the information from The Railway Herald website. It shows all the railtours that are happening each day.

 

It said that it would be diesel hauled to one point then steam would take over for the run on the S&C.

 

It might not have updated or something but I'm going to have another look at it later.

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by 6990WitherslackHall

[jamieb]

5 minutes ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

I got the information from The Railway Herald website. It shows all the railtours that are happening each day.

 

It said that it would be diesel hauled to one point then steam would take over for the run on the S&C.

 

Unfortunately I suspect my update yesterday from WCR is more likely to be accurate,which is a shame as the tickets were a wedding gift for my son and daughter-in-law 

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

I got the information from The Railway Herald website. It shows all the railtours that are happening each day.

 

It said that it would be diesel hauled to one point then steam would take over for the run on the S&C.

 

It might not have updated or something but I'm going to have another look at it later.

 

 

1 hour ago, jamieb said:

Unfortunately I suspect my update yesterday from WCR is more likely to be accurate,which is a shame as the tickets were a wedding gift for my son and daughter-in-law 

 

From a northern area gen list.

Steam path from Carnforth to Hellifield cancelled at operator's request as per RTT so looks like diesels all the way to Carlisle

[Bradford boy 56F]

I find this rather unfair on railtour steam purists that at a guess even if a originally steam hauled charter goes diesel hauled a refund or partial refund off the T.O.C. will not be offered due to a 3rd party like N.R. advising private steam diesel T.O.C. to go ahead diesel hauled due to dry weather. (fire risk) which I found out this morning off a email from steam dreams the steam traction is now been replaced By a dirty diesel to my detriment on a steam dreams tour from Bath from London Victoria on 28 July 2022 I booked on premium dining £250+ I paid and can't get a penny of it back all cos the T.O.C. decided to run diesel hauled instead of cancel the tour cos I'm not a diesel enthusiast and deciding not to travel to London just to be diesel loco  hauled, And this is how unfortunately the T.O.C. get away with offering no refund by running diesel hauled. I'm doing a W.C.R.C.  Scarborough spa next Thursday 4 August 2022 I hope the steam ban has been lifted by then.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Bradford boy 56F

[newbryford]

12 minutes ago, Bradford boy 56F said:

I find this rather unfair on railtour steam purists that at a guess even if a originally steam hauled charter goes diesel hauled a refund or partial refund off the T.O.C. will not be offered due to a 3rd party like N.R. advising private steam diesel T.O.C. to go ahead diesel hauled due to dry weather. (fire risk) which I found out this morning off a email from steam dreams the steam traction is now been replaced By a dirty diesel to my detriment on a steam dreams tour from Bath from London Victoria on 28 July 2022 I booked on premium dining £250+ I paid and can't get a penny of it back all cos the T.O.C. decided to run diesel hauled instead of cancel the tour cos I'm not a diesel enthusiast and deciding not to travel to London just to be diesel loco  hauled, And this is how unfortunately the T.O.C. get away with offering no refund by running diesel hauled. I'm doing a W.C.R.C.  Scarborough spa next Thursday 4 August 2022 I hope the steam ban has been lifted by then.

 

Welcome to RMweb.... 

If there wasn't a steam ban - what would be your thoughts if the booked steam loco failed and had to be replaced by a diesel at the last minute?

Maybe - a Cumbrian Mountain Express and you're halfway to Carlisle and no chance to get off?

Would you expect a partial refund?

Maybe a less partial refund if it failed halfway down the S&C?

 

Maybe tour operators should buy "insurance" against this sort of thing, so refunds/alternate tickets can be issued for later trips.

I'm sure this insurance wouldn't be free and would be passed onto the cost of the ticket.

And hence yourself.

 

[phil-b259]

15 minutes ago, Bradford boy 56F said:

I find this rather unfair on railtour steam purists that at a guess even if a originally steam hauled charter goes diesel hauled a refund or partial refund off the T.O.C. will not be offered due to a 3rd party like N.R. advising private steam diesel T.O.C. to go ahead diesel hauled due to dry weather. (fire risk) which I found out this morning off a email from steam dreams the steam traction is now been replaced By a dirty diesel to my detriment on a steam dreams tour from Bath from London Victoria on 28 July 2022 I booked on premium dining £250+ I paid and can't get a penny of it back all cos the T.O.C. decided to run diesel hauled instead of cancel the tour cos I'm not a diesel enthusiast and deciding not to travel to London just to be diesel loco  hauled, And this is how unfortunately the T.O.C. get away with offering no refund by running diesel hauled. I'm doing a W.C.R.C.  Scarborough spa next Thursday 4 August 2022 I hope the steam ban has been lifted by then.

 

Please remember that steam charter operators are largely exempt from the delay attribution system!

 

If your charter delays others then NR have to pay out thousands of compensation from their own pocket to everyone else whose trains are delayed.

 

That generosity from the taxpayers who fund NR comes with strings attached  - one of which is NR has the right to veto steam power in high fire-risk conditions.

 

If you want the 'right' to unfettered steam haulage or compensation when that doesn't happen - then be prepared to pay hugely increased ticket process as Charter companies become fully liable for delay minute pay outs potentially running into 6 figure sums

 

 

[Bradford boy 56F]

1 minute ago, newbryford said:

 

Welcome to RMweb.... 

If there wasn't a steam ban - what would be your thoughts if the booked steam loco failed and had to be replaced by a diesel at the last minute?

Maybe - a Cumbrian Mountain Express and you're halfway to Carlisle and no chance to get off?

Would you expect a partial refund?

Maybe a less partial refund if it failed halfway down the S&C?

 

Maybe tour operators should buy "insurance" against this sort of thing, so refunds/alternate tickets can be issued for later trips.

I'm sure this insurance wouldn't be free and would be passed onto the cost of the ticket.

And hence yourself.

 

The length of years I've been  doing mainline steam tours yes a loco has failed on more than one occasion and a partial refund or discount was offered on future tours with the T.O.C. 

[Bradford boy 56F]

I also was going to go from London kings X to York on the E.C.M.L. return Hauled by A1 loco tornado 60163 last year in November  with steam dreams but it was failed before the tour commenced with wheel tyre flats and so a diesel was substituted once again I refused to turn up for the tour but on that occasion all passengers on the tour were offered a £45 discount on any future steam dreams tours.

[jjb1970]

Why would you refuse to turn up? Seriously, I get that you might like steam locomotives and not be a diesel fan but if you've paid for it then it's still a nice day out.

[6990WitherslackHall]

5 hours ago, jamieb said:

Unfortunately I suspect my update yesterday from WCR is more likely to be accurate,which is a shame as the tickets were a wedding gift for my son and daughter-in-law 

 

4 hours ago, newbryford said:

From a northern area gen list.

Steam path from Carnforth to Hellifield cancelled at operator's request as per RTT so looks like diesels all the way to Carlisle

 

I've just looked on Railway Herald for the Dalesman and it still says this: 

 

 

I think they haven't bothered to change it.

Edited July 26, 2022 by 6990WitherslackHall

[newbryford]

2 minutes ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

 

 

I've just looked on Railway Herald for the Dalesman and it still says this: 

 

 

Such websites cannot always be updated immediately. It looked suspiciously like a 37 on the front and 47 on the back when it passed through Settle a couple of hours ago. (37706 and 47245)

Edited July 26, 2022 by newbryford

[Bradford boy 56F]

Simple fact of the matter is I'm a steam purist and expect probably like other tourists passengers on the train payed to be hauled by a kettle and not a diesel OK it's beyond the power of the T.O.C. to override N.R. decision on fire risk of running with a diesel or not at all. I would rather the T.O.C. just keep my money as a donation seen as though I'm not entitled to a refund or partial refund.

[newbryford]

3 minutes ago, Bradford boy 56F said:

Simple fact of the matter is I'm a steam purist and expect probably like other tourists passengers on the train payed to be hauled by a kettle and not a diesel OK it's beyond the power of the T.O.C. to override N.R. decision on fire risk of running with a diesel or not at all. I would rather the T.O.C. just keep my money as a donation seen as though I'm not entitled to a refund or partial refund.

 

So you've come on here to complain about not getting a refund and now seem happy to donate the fare...?

[6990WitherslackHall]

On 25/07/2022 at 14:43, 6990WitherslackHall said:

I've just found out that on the NYMR, Standard 4mt 2-6-0 76079 is running between Grosmont and Whitby. This is because of the failure of 37403. Hopefully, it should be back in service tomorrow.

 

I believe it was scheduled to do the Moorlander service but it got cancelled because of the failure.

37403 still not repaired. 76079 still hauling passenger services between Grosmont and Whitby. 

 

I think I was one of the last people to ride behind 37403 to Whitby before the failure. 

[2mmMark]

20 minutes ago, Bradford boy 56F said:

I also was going to go from London kings X to York on the E.C.M.L. return Hauled by A1 loco tornado 60163 last year in November  with steam dreams but it was failed before the tour commenced with wheel tyre flats and so a diesel was substituted once again I refused to turn up for the tour but on that occasion all passengers on the tour were offered a £45 discount on any future steam dreams tours.

That seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.  Couldn't you have gone on the tour and made your own steam train noises?

[Bucoops]

55 minutes ago, Bradford boy 56F said:

Simple fact of the matter is I'm a steam purist and expect probably like other tourists passengers on the train payed to be hauled by a kettle and not a diesel OK it's beyond the power of the T.O.C. to override N.R. decision on fire risk of running with a diesel or not at all. I would rather the T.O.C. just keep my money as a donation seen as though I'm not entitled to a refund or partial refund.

 

Difference between wheel flats and a blanket steam ban is control. In theory, the operators of Tornado could have prevented wheel flats (obviously not as simple as that) whereas NR banning steam due to weather conditions is totally out of the operators control. No doubt there will be info about that in the T&Cs about motive power and short notice changes.

[AY Mod]

55 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

So you've come on here to complain about not getting a refund and now seem happy to donate the fare...?

 

I'm dusting off my 'No sense of perspective' award.

[phil-b259]

4 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

Difference between wheel flats and a blanket steam ban is control. In theory, the operators of Tornado could have prevented wheel flats (obviously not as simple as that) whereas NR banning steam due to weather conditions is totally out of the operators control. No doubt there will be info about that in the T&Cs about motive power and short notice changes.

 

So are you saying the weather is within NRs control then?

[Bucoops]

3 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

So are you saying the weather is within NRs control then?

 

Of course not. I'm saying that the weather and NR's actions are outside the control of the TOC, who is the entity that the passenger/customer has the contract with.

 

Same with airlines - delay compensation is triggered if the plane is faulty and the delay is long enough. ATC being on strike somewhere, or a volcanic eruption would not trigger it.

[phil-b259]

At the end of the day, on the one hand we have a few enthusiasts getting all uppity because they can't travel behind steam - on the other there is the spectre of thousands of acres of farmland, wildlife habitats and even peoples homes being destroyed. OK this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-62229265  or  wasn't caused by a spark from a steam engine but its stupidity in the first degree to assume it couldn't happen as a result of a steam charter in the current conditions.

 

Travelling behind steam is, in this day and age a privilege - one than can and should be withdrawn if the conditions make it to hazardous to operate. Steam enthusiasts need to stop behaving like spoilt kids and grow up!

Edited July 26, 2022 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

Of course not. I'm saying that the weather and NR's actions are outside the control of the TOC, who is the entity that the passenger/customer has the contract with.

 

Same with airlines - delay compensation is triggered if the plane is faulty and the delay is long enough. ATC being on strike somewhere, or a volcanic eruption would not trigger it.

 

But in this case the hot weather (and thus the steam ban) is, in effect much like ATC being on strike or a Volcano exploding. It is NOT under the control of the TOC - so based on your analogy compensation from the TOC to a steam enthusiast is not due.

[phil-b259]

It should also be noted that weather forecasters are predicting another heatwave in a few weeks time - so I wouldn't hold your breath about steam bans ending for a good few months yet.

[Michael Hodgson]

To my mind you miss a lot of the benefit of steam by travelling behind it - you can see it so much better from the lineside than with your head stuck out of a droplight.

 

But if railtours are confined to winter, there is no fire risk and steam haulage is so much more spectacular when the ground is covered by snow !