RTR - Are We At A Paradigm Change?

[Ian J.]

Opinion Piece

 

I've had this thought in mind since seeing the pictures of Heljan's 45 in the last day or so, and now reinforced by Bachmann doing the Class 37.

 

I feel that I'm more than edging in favour of models produced by 'our' specialists - ARCS+ (Accurascale, Rapido, Revolution, Cavalex, SLW, plus shop commissions and direct products), rather than the big four - BDHH (Bachmann, Dapol, Heljan, Hornby).

 

Specifically, I'm more likely to wait for an ARCS+ version of a model than take a 'sub-standard' version from BDHH.

 

I just feel that the engagement of ARCS+ is better with us, and they are more prepared to go the distance to get things right. Of BDHH, only Bachmann seem to be trying to up their game, but even there, they have made some odd choices (the unnecessarily separately fitted and poorly representing front of cab footstep on the 47 puts me off it).

 

Of course, if it's a case of a given model of a prototype perhaps being the 'only game in town' and it's not 'good enough', then I have to make a choice whether to do without and just hope ARCS+ eventually do it, or go with whatever is available. That has to be done on a case-by-case basis.

 

I wonder what we as a community feel. Are we going to head to ARCS+, or are we happy not to care who does something?

[RichardT]

Like so many RMWeb discussions - could you change the thread title to make it clear that the issue under discussion is only relevant to the super-served 4mm scale market.  🥲
 

Getting a model of *any* GB prototype in N is an event. The concept of a “choice” to different standards is a fantasy! 😠

 

All the best

Richard

[Phil Parker]

To me, this smacks of cosying up to the "cool kids" in the playground. If you want to wait for a model from a specific manufacturer, then wait. No need to shout about it.

 

We've always had red box and blue box fanbois - each hating the products of the other manufacturer. All you are doing is joining the ranks, but on a different team. FWIW, there is also one of "our" specialists who I wouldn't take a free model from, for entirely personal reasons, so I'm as susceptable to playground mentality as anyone else sometimes.

 

Also, are the products of BDHH really all "sub-standard"? I'm inclinded to suggest that if the worst thing on your layout is a footstep on a Class 47 you don't like, then it must be a truly breathtaking model that I'd really like to photograph for BRM, and we'd pay you to write the article.

[MarkSG]

That's an interesting question, and I do think we may be heading for a scenario where there is a clear difference between the "premium" manufacturers and the "standard" manufacturers. But, other than in the relatively few cases where there's a choice of manufacturer for a particular model, we're still mostly in the position of making a take it or leave it choice when something is announced that we might want. 

 

Personally, I don't think I'm any more or less likely to buy from any manufacturer per se. I buy the things I like, and that suit whatever I'm working on at the moment, irrespective of where they come from. In the past few years I've probably bought more new stuff from Rapido than anyone else, but that's almost entirely because Rapido have, by happy coincidence, been making things I want. If Bachmann or Hornby go through a phase of reading my mind (or my wishlist) before announcing new products, then they'll get my business, too.

[Paul H Vigor]

Looking back over my model railway life, I don't recall ever being 'led' by manufacturers in my loco buying. My interests have always been eclectic so most of my more obscure locos are kit-built, often bought as wreaks needing some TLC. The most interesting advance in the model railway hobby must be 3-D printing - and its still early days, where will we be in ten years time? 

[Wheatley]

36 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Looking back over my model railway life, I don't recall ever being 'led' by manufacturers in my loco buying.

Quite. I suspect buyers fall into two camps, often simultaneously:

 

1. I need (i.e. would like) an XYZ, who makes one which matches my criteria? , and

2. Ooh that's pretty, I'll have one of those. 

 

The same manufacturer is responsible for both the best and most troublesome of my recent-ish acquisitions so I have no particular loyalty to one over another. 

 

Where I do think there'll be a shift as prices necessarily go up and disposable income falls is that fewer of us will be in camp 2 and those in camp 1 will be more discriminatory in their purchases. Not all the current crop of manufacturers will survive - in terms of electronic consumer goods this is a niche market with a finite number of potential customers - but it will be interesting to see who does. 

 

Personally I have more than enough kits and cheap RTR donors stockpiled to keep me going well into retirement without needing to trouble current RTR very much at all. 

 

[BroadLeaves]

10 hours ago, Ian J. said:

Specifically, I'm more likely to wait for an ARCS+ version of a model than take a 'sub-standard' version from BDHH.

In reality, there's very little crossover. Want a small 0-4-0 industrial steam loco? A Hornby Peckett is the obvious choice. Nothing in a similar vein from ARCS. Want a decent GWR pannier? Probably the Bachmann offering. Again, nothing from ARCS.

What the ARCS folks do, they do very well. They have to. They are, without exception, niche players right now. Hornby has more wagons on one page of their 227 page catalogue than Cavalex have in their entire range. Accurascale sell one steam locomotive. Rapido, apart from one dynamometer car, don't sell carriages at all.

The fact is, if you stick with just the ARCS manufacturers, most people will have a very odd-looking and extremely under-populated layout.
 

10 hours ago, Ian J. said:

I just feel that the engagement of ARCS+ is better with us, and they are more prepared to go the distance to get things right.

Of course, an alternative view is that they are simply crowd-sourcing their model research! There's people on here who will happily spend a couple of hours digging out that one photo which shows that that wagon, in that year, had that planking. And that's not a criticism of anybody. If the RMWebber didn't enjoy doing the research, I'm sure they wouldn't bother, and the final model will be all the better for the additional prototype information. Everybody wins.

However, I think that, again, it's a scale thing. Given their significantly larger ranges, Hornby, Bachmann and so on can't really do that. I imagine they'd just drown in information. Perhaps their individual models aren't as close to the prototype. That is balanced by the much wider choice of models they offer. 

 

20 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

I suspect buyers fall into two camps, often simultaneously:

 

1. I need (i.e. would like) an XYZ, who makes one which matches my criteria? , and

2. Ooh that's pretty, I'll have one of those. 

Yes, that's a very fair description of me. If it's in my budget, and I want one, I'll buy one. I won't actively boycott a particular manufacturer, just as I won't actively favour one. Each model purchase is judged on its own merits, without regard to the name on the box.

[Ian J.]

3 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

To me, this smacks of cosying up to the "cool kids" in the playground. If you want to wait for a model from a specific manufacturer, then wait. No need to shout about it.

 

We've always had red box and blue box fanbois - each hating the products of the other manufacturer. All you are doing is joining the ranks, but on a different team. FWIW, there is also one of "our" specialists who I wouldn't take a free model from, for entirely personal reasons, so I'm as susceptable to playground mentality as anyone else sometimes.

 

Also, are the products of BDHH really all "sub-standard"? I'm inclinded to suggest that if the worst thing on your layout is a footstep on a Class 47 you don't like, then it must be a truly breathtaking model that I'd really like to photograph for BRM, and we'd pay you to write the article.

 

'Fanbois'-ism certainly wasn't the intent of my post, and I certainly don't think it came across as 'shouting' about it. I also certainly didn't say all products from BDHH were sub-standard, only that if BDHH produced something noticably sub-standard then I'd prefer to wait on ARCS+, but if ARCS+ produce something sub-standard I will equally avoid it in the same way I would with BDHH. Again, if a given model is only produced by one player, then I have to make a decision on that one instance.

 

I do have 'trust' issues with BDHH though, and don't feel they should be treated as immune from criticism just because they're well known and established players. It sounds to me from the way you phrased your reply like you have a tendency to be over-protective of them.

 

I also feel that, for the most part, ARCS+ are willing to pay more attention to trying to get things right and engage with customers, while BDHH, and certainly Heljan, seem all too willing to let errors stay in their models and have poor engagement and lack of willingness to fix on noticed issues when they show off CAD or initial tooling pictures. FWIW, I feel that Accurascale in particular are on a trajectory (perhaps in the long term) to become a somewhat bigger player than they currently are, perhaps even big enough to challenge the likes of BDHH, or even become one of them.

 

Oh, and as regards my own modelling and needing it to be 'breathtaking' in order to make a valid criticism of another model, if you keep rolling out that argument as an answer to someone not happy with a model railway product, that's a very weak argument and you really ought to stop it. I can't make a car, but that doesn't mean I can't criticize a car manufacturer for making one that I can tell is a poor one to drive. I can't make a smartphone, or write an operating system, but that doesn't mean I can't see when it's done poorly enough to be awkward or difficult to use.

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Ian J.

[njee20]

I’m not really sure of your point when you say that it’s not given that a product by BDHH is inherently sub-standard nor that one by ARCS is better. At that point you’re just saying that you’d buy the better model. Which is a bit “well, yes, obviously”. 
 

I die a bit inside with those initialisms too. Not least you’re missing an R. 

[LBRJ]

I have spent far too long wondering where this one is heading, or indeed where it came from,

It seems to me like "we" are not really comparing the same things here .

It is more like comparing the products of a local craft brewery to those of Carlsberg Tetley; while much of the tiny range may well be "better", the point would remain that it is a tiny range of products.

 

 

[McC]

Fascinating topic ( from a personal and professional point of view). 
 

I do think there is a shift. Yes we are small right now, but do bear in mind that we are a four year old. The newest even of the ARCS list you outline yet in that time have brought almost 1000 SKUs out, over 75% of which are already delivered to customers and have tooled more new models than probably any other manufacturer in the same period. 
 

And we’re only warming up :) 

[Oldddudders]

26 minutes ago, McC said:

Yes we are small right now, but do bear in mind that we are a four year old. The newest even of the ARCS list you outline yet in that time have brought almost 1000 SKUs out, over 75% of which are already delivered to customers and have tooled more new models than probably any other manufacturer in the same period. 
 

And we’re only warming up :) 

And for a minority of us, your EU location helps, too!

[thegreenhowards]

I’d fully agree that the new boys are engaging with their customers in a very positive way. I suspect that’s much easier for a small company but no less creditable. I think the key issue here is competition. It’s great to have such a range of manufacturers building 00 gauge products each driving the quality standards up and providing (some) checks on price. I do think Hornby and, in my experience, particularly Bachmann have raised their standards recently. New models such as the Bachmann V2 are superb but I won’t be buying while the price is over £200 - the new boys seem to manage the same quality at a more reasonable price.

 

I speak as both an OO and O gauge modeller. As @RichardTstates above, any form of competition in the other scales would be very welcome. Heljan O gauge diesels and rolling stock are very welcome, but they’re not as detailed or accurate as many of the new OO models and cost a lot more. Obviously, this is partly due to their size and weight. But I think a lot more is down to the market size (meaning overheads are spread over a smaller number of models and limiting the scope for lots of different versions of the same class) and the lack of competition. I really hope Accurascale do a bit more in O gauge - it’s a growing market and will grow much more quickly if the models are more affordable.

[Ian J.]

On that note, I haven't changed the thread title, as requested, because when I thought about it I felt that the subject I am trying to discuss can equally apply across all scales. Revolution would surely not be happy if they were considered any less for their N gauge output than Dapol. N gauge is after all Revolution's main 'raison d'etre'. O gauge still has space for other suppliers to enter the market than Heljan or Dapol, and engagement and R&D quality are still factors there. The only question remains how long before viable competition exists in that scale.

 

Back to the original subject, I for one am hoping that the 'disruption' of ARCS+ and the consequent competition they present will lead to attitude changes in BDHH. My feeling is that ultimately BDHH will have no choice but to drop what appears to be a sense of 'entitlement' to the industry and its customers and the attitude of 'we don't have to talk to you and you will just buy what we make regardless of its R&D quality'. I know that for me the game has changed and I will avoid poorly developed products from them even if they're the only game in town if there's a possibility of it being made by ARCS+ (I'm thinking class 45, but there are others).

 

Bachmann have upped their game but their engagement is still not there, perhaps by deliberate choice in that they like to keep their cards close to their chest with regards what they're developing for fear of duplication. I'm not sure how that one gets solved when other ARCS+ players are more open and connected with the customer.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Ian J.
minor clarification

[AY Mod]

1 hour ago, McC said:

do bear in mind that we are a four year old.

 

A quite noisy and boisterous one. 😆

[McC]

4 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

A quite noisy and boisterous one. 😆

Lol. I’’m just hoping we’ve passed the terrible  twos :) 

[Phil Bullock]

5 minutes ago, McC said:

Lol. I’’m just hoping we’ve passed the terrible  twos :) 

Yes but what will happen when you become sulky teenagers? 😀

[298]

It is perfectly reasonable in this market to have the same prototype available from multiple manufacturers at different price points. Someone buying a class 66 for a train set is more likely to buy the Hornby one, whereas someone wanting more finesse will choose the Bachmann product, the issue then being something like the Hatton's one undercutting the Bachmann price but not delivering on quality and the customer ending up with lots of parts to reattach, which is beyond the skills of some people. 

 

I'm not sure how these smaller players have gained their reputations after just a few models when their catalogue of forthcoming releases reads like the 1989 Lima one where they promised just about everything but never delivered, and they are also susceptible to the same design and manufacturing quality control issues that the more established manufacturers are slated for.

[Matt C]

On 23/07/2022 at 10:45, Ian J. said:

Opinion Piece

 

I've had this thought in mind since seeing the pictures of Heljan's 45 in the last day or so, and now reinforced by Bachmann doing the Class 37.

 

I feel that I'm more than edging in favour of models produced by 'our' specialists - ARCS+ (Accurascale, Rapido, Revolution, Cavalex, SLW, plus shop commissions and direct products), rather than the big four - BDHH (Bachmann, Dapol, Heljan, Hornby).

 

Specifically, I'm more likely to wait for an ARCS+ version of a model than take a 'sub-standard' version from BDHH.

 

I just feel that the engagement of ARCS+ is better with us, and they are more prepared to go the distance to get things right. Of BDHH, only Bachmann seem to be trying to up their game, but even there, they have made some odd choices (the unnecessarily separately fitted and poorly representing front of cab footstep on the 47 puts me off it).

 

Of course, if it's a case of a given model of a prototype perhaps being the 'only game in town' and it's not 'good enough', then I have to make a choice whether to do without and just hope ARCS+ eventually do it, or go with whatever is available. That has to be done on a case-by-case basis.

 

I wonder what we as a community feel. Are we going to head to ARCS+, or are we happy not to care who does something?

 

 

My gut feeling is that the silent majority wont care who does something, probably don't visit this or other forums so may be entirely unaware of the issues you and others spot ( absolutely NO slur intended in that comment) and will happily continue to go online or wander into their local model shop and buy what they see/ like/ want to run on their layouts.

 Accurascale are using online marketing to do presales and are also building a network of dealers/ stockists. so DO make use of online social platforms quite heavily and yes, we feel an almost 'personal' connection to them.

 Bachmann utilize their network of dealers to sell so probably don't put as much emphasis on online contact but I'm sure both 37's (current topic on RmWeb) have/ will sell very well.

 Hornby seam to be fighting a survival battle atmo and the impression given by their current actions is that they are moving away from a dealer led business model (rightly or wrongly) towards an online direct sales model, to maybe maximize profits on their investments?  Maybe they see the writing on the wall and are moving away from trying to satisfy the niche, high end, accurate model market and are looking to hook into that silent majority and get them to buy direct thereby securing maximum profits for their products that traditionally went to the box shifters and/ or other retail shops. There has been quite an upsurge in recent years in online shopping and maybe they see THAT as their route to survival ?

 

Again I say, are we but a small but vociferous Minnow in a larger (more silent) Pond ?

 

Food for thought (OH begger just spotted a Pike heading my way !) 😆

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Matt C

[Neil]

For many 4mm locos there is only one choice of manufacturer, if you're on a budget, even when there is theoretically a choice, finances may limit choice to only one option. If you're not afraid of putting in some work to tart up an old second hand model then there may well be less to choose between older basic and new entrant bells and whistles anyway. I do wonder if some of the buzz around hi-fi new models isn't similar to that around designer labels vs the likes of Matalan or George at Asda.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Neil

[sjp23480]

Not sure this a paradigm shift, just a series of inflection points in the normal evolution of the market. 

 

Emerging players will always push the market to new heights, that is why they come to the market in the first place.  We saw it in the 1970s with Airfix and Palitoy launching some truly outstanding models (for their time).  Hornby responded and upped their game, eventually, otherwise the alternative was to ignore the competition, lose sales and risk of going out of business. 

 

The Bachmann 47 was a risky play if only for the pricing, but must have been commercially successful as we now have the imminent arrival of the new 37 at a similar price point.  We should be grateful that the price of British outline RTR remains considerably cheaper than continental equivalents. 

 

The established players will always be less nimble than the new entries, they have longer product development times, production cycles and carry a lot more overhead or debt that needs to be funded - hence their higher prices.  Ultimately, the new players are a good thing as they will drive the market onto bigger and better things.

 

Of more concern may be the impact on the kit makers - who often found a market plugging the gaps left by RTR.  I suspect their audience of modellers that eschew RTR is somewhat on the wane, as the like of Tony Wright now applaud the latest RTR offers and are often consulted on their development.   So, their market seems to be shrinking, as the RTR players produce more eclectic prototypes in the quest for something a bit different.  That said, the same changes are at force with smaller more specialist suppliers and technologies (3d print) emerge to drive the more established players to improve their offer.

 

All part of life's rich tapestry!

 

Steve

 

 

[John-Miles]

Why not make your own - then you are really modelling rather than opening boxes.

[KeithMacdonald]

19 hours ago, Wheatley said:

I suspect buyers fall into two camps, often simultaneously:

1. I need (i.e. would like) an XYZ, who makes one which matches my criteria? , and

2. Ooh that's pretty, I'll have one of those.

 

and (perhaps for some of us)

3. I can't afford any new locos from any of them; I might start making some of the wagon kits, accessories and scenery I've been stockpiling.

[newbryford]

12 hours ago, McC said:

Lol. I’’m just hoping we’ve passed the terrible  twos :) 

 

No - the Brush Type 2 hasn't been released yet.......

[newbryford]

On 23/07/2022 at 10:45, Ian J. said:

 

 

I feel that I'm more than edging in favour of models produced by 'our' specialists - ARCS+ (Accurascale, Rapido, Revolution, Cavalex, SLW, plus shop commissions and direct products), rather than the big four - BDHH (Bachmann, Dapol, Heljan, Hornby).

 

 

 

 

You've forgotten KR Models.