Time to admit defeat in N - A reprieve, thanks to StevenB & Kato

[rab]

I think I'm reaching the point of giving up on building a layout.

 

I had one planned as a retirement project.

 

I spent lockdown converting part of the garage into a railway room, and since then have been building baseboards, attempting to lay track and adding wiring.

 

I've checked each section as it was finished and locos seem to run ok, but now I've put it all together I'm having no end of problems with derailments etc.

 

I've come to the conclusion that going for N gauge so I could get more in a small space,

may have been a good idea when I was planning the layout in my late 50's/early 60's,

but trying to curve flexitrack, fit rail-joiners and fasten track when you're in your 70's,

clumsy and fumble fingered is a different matter.

 

Could be a lot of N gauge stock on eBay soon!

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by rab

[33C]

I'm the same. Got boxes of scenery, models, track etc ready for retirement, to build a modest dream layout, for when I have a lot of clear days to make it happen. Knowing I'm not going have a lot of space, it will be a modest, double track, oval with the feel of 70's B.R. But! Will it happen? Who knows... until then I'm mucking about with cheapo train sets, broken Triang and whatever turns up next in the bootsales and charity shops. Plus, because of shift work, it cannot take more than a week to complete, start to finish! I tell you, it's a laugh, raiding the darkest reaches of the book shelves for a picture that may fit whatever power source I have in my hands...This has renergised my modeling and it's pennies a time. Card, plastic, wood, battery, clockwork, 2 rail, I don't care anymore as my brain is thinking, what's next and what if! What I'm saying is, don't sell it yet. Get a cheap train set and some card, a nice colour reference book and have a bit of FUN! We don't need anymore misery or fretting, and I've been on the B shift!! Ha!

[The Johnster]

Maybe you’re running before you can walk; try building a very small and simple layout first, even a plank will work as a place to make your mistakes and set you off up the learning curve. It will be finished relatively quickly and you will get a lot of fun, satisfaction, and experience out of it. 
 

Interesting that you say you have checked each section and locos run ok but you are finding problems when you put it all together.  Are the problems related to baseboard joins where the sections meet?

 

FWIW, I prefer to build my layouts ‘from the ground up’ rather than starting at one end and working my way along, to ensure that all is compatible across baseboards and section joins.  By this I mean starting with the baseboards (no sh*t, Sherlock), and then when they are finished, completing all the track laying in one go.  Test it, all of it, by gently pushing stock over it, and don’t start the next stage until you are happy with the running.  When you are happy with the position of the track, glue it into final place with pva, but don’t get any on the rail heads or anywhere near turnout tiebars, then test all of it again with gently pushed stock. 
 

The next stage is wiring, all in one go, drilling holes to take the wires under the boards and soldering them to your feed points.  Test run exhaustively over the whole layout track plan, initially with a simple 4-or 6-coupled loco that you know is a reliable runner, and then with bogie/pony wheel arrangements or bogie diesels or electrics.  Don’t start the next stage until you are happy with the running, and be aware that debris from the drilling must be cleaned from turnouts or it will lift the wheels in the flangeways and prevent the blades from closing properly; either way the result will be derailments!

 

Next stage is painting the rails (if you are going to do this, that is; I think the appearance is well worth the trouble), again all in one go before moving on.  Slap it on but try to keep it away from the turnout blades and stock rails, then wipe the railhead surface before it dries.  Don’t worry if some dries, it’ll scrape off with a Peco track cleaning block.  Then, repeat the loco test running as before, over the whole layout.  Don’t start the next stage until you are happy with the running.  
 

Now for the ballasting, all in one go; see, there’s a pattern emerging here!  This is a messy job and when it’s finished, you will have to go over the rail heads again with the Peco block to get rid of any pva that has found it’s way there, and clear flangeways and stock rail closure areas of stray ballast.   Again, repeat the loco test running all over the layout until you are happy with it, but the repeated testing should have highlighted any problems and they will have been sorted, or you wouldn’t have moved on between the stages, would you, so once the railheads are clean and the stray ballast removed from anywhere you don’t want it, this final testing should be a rubber stamp exercise.   You can now concentrate on the trains, buildings, and scenery, the fun part!
 

I find this ‘ground up’ approach automatically enforces a discipline that ensures good running and a uniformity of appearance over the whole layout.  It is worth taking time and care joining track pieces together to ensure that they are smooth and level, this being important everywhere but particularly so in the vicinity of turnouts!  Laying accurate curves in flexi track is difficult without ‘traksettas’, and my advice is to use setrack for any curvature sharper than about 18” radius in N; any tighter will stress flexi and possibly pull it out of gauge; more derailments… I pin my track down lightly initially, so that it can easily be moved about a little for fine tuning, and do not permanently fix it until I’m 100% happy; then it is pva-ed in place.  I don’t like underlay, and glue directly to the baseboards, which helps to ensure everything is the same level. 

 

Invest in a back-to-back gauge and set all your wheels to it, keep railheads, pickup wheels, and pickups clean to ensure good electrical continuity to your locos, and you should be rewarded with smooth, reliable running, but as your layout is in a garage, keep an eye on temperature differences that may cause trouble at the rail joints and damp that may cause baseboard warping.  I had an attic layout in my teens, long ago now, that tore itself apart because of these issues, and heating and ventilating garages to prevent them can be costly. 
 

Your flangeways will still attract crud, which will still lift wheels in the turnouts, the most vulnerable place.  Tip; poundshop children’s paintbrushes, cheap and with stiff nylon bristles, cr@p for painting but perfect for sweeping flangeways!  
 

To sum up, don’t give up, don’t sell your stuff, have a go at a small plank BLT to gain experience, and then make some decisions.  Keep it simple and achievable; you’re around my age and, let’s be honest, we’re on the home straight with no time for complications or half-finished projects.  Not being morbid, just pragmatic…
 

Edited October 2, 2022 by The Johnster

[DCB]

9 hours ago, rab said:

I think I'm reaching the point of giving up on building a layout.

 

I had one planned as a retirement project.

 

I spent lockdown converting part of the garage into a railway room,

and since then have been building baseboards,

attempting to lay track and adding wiring.

 

I've checked each section as it was finished and locos seem to run ok,

but now I've put it all together I'm having no end of problems with derailments etc.

I've come to the conclusion that going for N gauge so I could get more in a small space,

may have been a good idea when I was planning the layout in my late 50's/early 60's,

but trying to curve flexitrack, fit rail-joiners and fasten track when you're in your 70's,

clumsy and fumble fingered is a different matter.

Could be a lot of N gauge stock on eBay soon!

 A lot of people collect stock for the retirement layout they never build, or collect far more stock, kits, accessories etc than their dream layout can ever accommodate.  Which end up on eBay.    Really N gauge is not for the over 66s. Not to start a layout.  00 makes a lot more sense and heritage 00 Triang etc, even more sense, 0 gauge is even better,  I would stick all the N gauge on eBay and reconsider your space.    A mix of  set track for sharp curves and flexi for the rest with large radius points and Peco streamline or closer track spacing works for me in 00 and should work in N .  It avoids the kinking flexi curve issue, but pre 2000 era 00 stock with code 100 etc track certainly stays on the track better than RP25 and code 75.   I suspect the baseboards are separate units and the joins give issues, well they do, more so in N than 00 and 00 than 0.   I would look at 0 gauge, its more expensive but you can only cram 20% as much approx into any given space as N gauge, 50% of 00.  But I'm 66 and struggling to maintain my father in laws 00 dream layout which he can no longer do anything to and finding it ever harder as wheel get finer and every new loco or coach finds new track faults to derail on.    Don't give up on the hobby, just call time on N gauge that's my suggestion.   How much room do you have? 

Edited October 2, 2022 by DCB

[33C]

Talking of the larger scales, the Christmas/bargain shops that are opening now often have large toy/xmas train sets for around the £20 mark. These respond well to a repaint minimum or add a speed controller, (£5 for two and only 4 wires) for a bit of shunting! Wilko did a very nice I.C.E. 3 car set 2 years ago, with station, sound, lights and people in approx gauge 1 for £19.99! Round the tree then in the garden or spare room....I'll be grabbing a couple of cheapo's, purely for testing you understand.....

[Oldddudders]

13 hours ago, rab said:

I think I'm reaching the point of giving up on building a layout.

 

I had one planned as a retirement project.

 

I spent lockdown converting part of the garage into a railway room,

and since then have been building baseboards,

attempting to lay track and adding wiring.

 

I've checked each section as it was finished and locos seem to run ok,

but now I've put it all together I'm having no end of problems with derailments etc.

 

I've come to the conclusion that going for N gauge so I could get more in a small space,

may have been a good idea when I was planning the layout in my late 50's/early 60's,

but trying to curve flexitrack, fit rail-joiners and fasten track when you're in your 70's,

clumsy and fumble fingered is a different matter.

 

Could be a lot of N gauge stock on eBay soon!

 

A great shame, but less of a surprise at our age (I'm 74 next month - I hope!). Perhaps the ebay experience will yield some cash to buy OO stuff, with which you may have a better chance. If baseboards are built it should not be so tough to lay and wire the larger scale. Or perhaps the senior scale might appeal? Much less track and rolling stock needed to have a truly impressive system, I think.

 

ISTR you successfully overcame a major health issue a while back. I bet you can move on and become a happy modeller again, too. 

[bmthtrains - David]

Perhaps going for something simpler? Especially if this is your first layout. Achieving a simple smaller layout might give you the boost to try something more ambitious later. Is there an aspect of the hobby you enjoy most? If it’s scenery for example, try to minimise the work involved in the other aspects - baseboard making, electrics etc. If you stay in N gauge Kato unitrack is very popular and can be weathered well to make it less ‘trainset’-like, or perhaps switch to a larger scale?

 

David

[rab]

It's surprising how blinkered we can get.

 

I was ready to sell up all my n gauge stuff and give up railway modelling altogether. It never occurred to me to try a different scale.

 

And yes I was being far too ambitious for a first layout. I had a particular location in mind and that was all I wanted to model.

 

I take the point about O gauge being easier to handle. I think I'll buy a small amount of OO stuff and see how I get on with that.

 

Thanks for your support and suggestions; I new my fellow RMWebbers would get me back on track, (excuse the pun)

 

[rab]

OK, I know this is opening a can of worms, and

I'm not going to start buying again right away

but, having been focussed on Farish and Dapol,

I need to look at different names if going to OO.

From what I've read about Hornby I cant say 

I'm particularly keen on them, which I guess

leaves Bachmamm and Dapol.

Any thoughs on which is best, based on

accuracy, reliability and price.

 

[chris p bacon]

If you're just going to dabble in OO to get the feel of it, I'd pick up some cheapies from Ebay/model shop bargain bucket, it shouldn't matter what it is.

 

I model the GNR so there is very little the RTR boys produce that is suitable. Having said that Hornby, Bachmann & Rapido* have all produced at least one item.

 

*if you ever find a Rapido Stirling Single in a bargain bucket let me know...

Edited October 2, 2022 by chris p bacon

[cessna152towser]

I dabbled with N gauge in my younger days, but now I am in my seventies I am glad that I stuck with 00, even though I am restricted to a simple fiddle yard to branch terminus layout in this scale.   The modern levels  of detail in OO mean that I need reading glasses and a magnifying glass to decipher the small print on some of the more recent stock.  

I possess precisely one item of N gauge stock, which is a commemorative Peco open wagon lettered to commemorate the re-opening of the Borders Railway in 2015 and which I purchased from Harburn Hobbies at their stall at the railway re-opening party at the Scottish Mining Museum in Newtongrange.  I have now owned it for seven years and it remains within its sealed packaging.

[DCB]

My experience  New 00 RTR Locos.    Heljan best    02, (LNER 2-8-0)  GWR 1366 and 47XX, Hymek, Western.   No issues.  Bachmann current stuff good but run a mile from anything "Split Chassis pre about 2000 (?)    Hornby Avoid anything pre about 2017 and there is plenty of it around being sold as "New"  Avoid 4-6-2s with flangeless trailing wheels, anything with traction tyres. They buy small batches from China and every batch is different.  many need an overhaul, back to back of the wheels adjusted etc before use.  Dapol  Only one experience, 43XX.  Fell on its side after three feet.  Needed reprofiled leading wheels to run properly.  Hattons, Our 14XX runs beautifully.   Kernow, 1361, Poor until weighted. 

Coaches, pretty much much of a muchness, arm and a legs ville.  Bachmann seem less inclined to de rail. You need Peco Streamline points or express points to run more than 4 coach trains reliably 3ft (or 5ft) ideally.  Old Airfix or Mainline at £5 instead of £40 make a lot of sense.

Wagons, Bachmann seem to have consistent couplings and buffer heights.  Hornby flog all sorts of stuff originally Airfix, Triang etc and their buffers and couplings are completely random, especially as so much old unsold stock is out there sold as "New"  Using Bachmann underframes and changing to Hornby or kit bodies is probably the best solution if you need variety

That's my experience.  Heljan or Bachmann.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, rab said:

OK, I know this is opening a can of worms, and

I'm not going to start buying again right away

but, having been focussed on Farish and Dapol,

I need to look at different names if going to OO.

From what I've read about Hornby I cant say 

I'm particularly keen on them, which I guess

leaves Bachmamm and Dapol.

Any thoughs on which is best, based on

accuracy, reliability and price.

 

 

Ignore most of the comments against Hornby, Hornby are still at least equal to the better quality of any of the new boys. In some instances, they are head and shoulders above them. 

 

Dapol? May be good for N Gauge but much of their 00 range is outdated junk, especially the rolling stock. Good for diesels (52 and 68 especially), but most of their steam outline models was always a bit rubbish.

 

Bachmann are probably the one that is most consistent. I don't think they have anything in the range that is outdated or wrong. 

 

Accurascale and Rapido? Very good but limited ranges and most are short run limited editions.

 

Heljan? Good in some instances, but a few duffers such as the woeful 47XX and Class 17. The O2s are fantastic, will pull a shed down.

 

However, I would work out what you actually want rather than picking a manufacturer as they are all compatible. There is a lot more choice in 00 than N gauge.

 

Steam, diesel, electric?

Era?

Railway company?

Do you like watching trains go past or want to shunt?

Mainline or branchline, or even industrial?

 

Shop around as there are some very good bargains at the moment from Kernow, Hattons, TMC, Rails, etc.

 

I would also avoid second hand until you get things up and running. 

 

 

Jason

[DCMarvel]

If price is an issue stick with Hornby from the 1980-2005 the tender drive years. Otherwise Bachmann.

[The Johnster]

If you are going to model a specific period or location with RTR as the primary source, then brand loyalty becomes irrelevant; you need to get whatever locos and stock you need from wherever you can.  I model South Wales, specifically the Tondu area, period 1948-58, in 00, and my loco fleet splits down as 3x Hornby, 11x Bachmann, but this is not down to any preference for the latter, just that Hornby do not make 45xx, 4575, 56xx, 57xx, 8750, or 94xx., and Bachmann do not make 42xx, 5101, or the colliery Peckett W4, or any non-gangwayed GW coaching stock.  
 

There was a time when Hornby were significantly less accurate and gave in a poorer slow-running performance, and the ghosts of that period still haunt them; there are undoubtedly some dogs in their catalogue, but recent (say post 2010) releases are pretty good.  My W4 Peckett is a constant delight and IMHO a miracle of miniature production engineering for the price; Bachmann have not attempted anything like this and would probably charge twice Hornby’s price if they did. 

Avoid secondhand older Hornby because of poor detail and Mainline/Replica-derived Bachmann, and old Airfix 14xx because of congenitally unsolvable reliability issues; of course, these are cheap and easily available on the ‘Bay, and often sold as ‘brand new’, meaning they are brand new never sold old stock.  If you need 9’ wheelbase mineral wagons, avoid Hornby, Dapol, or Wrenn, which use generic 10” wheelbase chassis; stick with Bachmann or Oxford.  I use the rule of thumb for eBay and 2h in general

that I don’t want it unless it has NEM couplers. 
 

00 will of course mean you can get less in a given space, the trade-off being better detail, easier handling, and a much bigger range to choose from.  

 

[GeoffAlan]

I suspect the whole thing was classic over ambition. At 71, with arthritic fingers, I'm still running and repairing my vast N gauge collection, acquired over the last 48 years and 6 layouts. My latest layout, started at age 65 is kato track, which would have solved the OP's problems re track laying, is still awaiting more detail, but is largely complete and providing much fun for me and my grandkids. I have a shunting layout in a hard plastic rifle case comes on apace. 

[McC]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

 

 

Accurascale and Rapido? Very good but limited ranges and most are short run limited editions.

Jason

for clarity, our ranges are growing but we’ve done barely half a handful of ‘limited editions’. We explicitly state our intentions to have available stock which is why you can buy from about 6 ranges on our website or from our retail partners right now. 

[Silly Moo]

I’m going to throw a spanner in the works, if you have some N gauge models that you are fond of, keep them and model both N and 00! That’s what I have done. 
 

You could even have an N gauge line at the back of your 00 layout as forced perspective. 

[DenysW]

I suggest: Now that you know what you now know, go to a couple of Model Railway shows, and look at what looks like fun (to you) in N, 009/HOe, OO/HO, HOn30, and O. All have advantages and all have disadvantages. But think to yourself, do I enjoy:

 

-   Making the actual layouts, including buildings, scenery, people, etc.

-   Perfect modelling (i.e not close-enough-is-good-enough)

-   Running big trains fast through a big layout (think Wright Writes, of this parish)

-   Complicated shunting puzzles (i.e. lots of operating, but low speeds)

-   Perfect scratch-building of obscure pre-Grouping stock (there's some beauties out there)

-   Interesting foreign prototypes (example: read about the pre-WW1 Bavarian railways)

 

And:

 

-   Would I enjoy this more as part of a team?

 

Narrow gauge gives you bigger layouts, but vastly restricted RTR (especially HOn30). The bigger the scale, the less that you can fit in, but the more satisfying the models are.

 

Summary: there is no right answer, but unless you know what your real objectives are, there is a wide variety of unsatisfactory/unachievable/wrong answers. There's also auctions as well as eBay. Cheaper and riskier.

[rab]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Ignore most of the comments against Hornby, Hornby are still at least equal to the better quality of any of the new boys. In some instances, they are head and shoulders above them. 

 

Dapol? May be good for N Gauge but much of their 00 range is outdated junk, especially the rolling stock. Good for diesels (52 and 68 especially), but most of their steam outline models was always a bit rubbish.

 

Bachmann are probably the one that is most consistent. I don't think they have anything in the range that is outdated or wrong. 

 

Accurascale and Rapido? Very good but limited ranges and most are short run limited editions.

 

Heljan? Good in some instances, but a few duffers such as the woeful 47XX and Class 17. The O2s are fantastic, will pull a shed down.

 

However, I would work out what you actually want rather than picking a manufacturer as they are all compatible. There is a lot more choice in 00 than N gauge.

 

Steam, diesel, electric?

Era?

Railway company?

Do you like watching trains go past or want to shunt?

Mainline or branchline, or even industrial?

 

Shop around as there are some very good bargains at the moment from Kernow, Hattons, TMC, Rails, etc.

 

I would also avoid second hand until you get things up and running. 

 

 

Jason

 

Some good points there @Steamport Southport.

 

My aim had always been to run models of what was around when I was spotting, so it would be GWR, maybe with a bit of SR.

 

As for era it would be the steam-diesel transition period, late 50's, early  60's. I'm not bothered about modelling an actual location.

 

I think I'll probably get a Peco track starter set, play around with that for a while then gradually expand. As for stock I'd already decided to buy new, locos at least.

 

I've spent so much time trying to build something, I just want to run trains and have some fun, so a roundy-roundy with a few sidings for shunting will keep me happy for  while.

 

 

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, rab said:

 

My aim had always been to run models of what was around when I was spotting, so it would be GWR, maybe with a bit of SR.

 

As for era it would be the steam-diesel transition period, late 50's, early  60's. I'm not bothered about modelling an actual location.

 

 

You're going to be mixing Dapol, Bachmann and Hornby with possibly a little Accurascale and Rapido (if buying new).

 

At the end of the day for most people all models are pretty much of a muchness - the only thing to watch out for are older models with Mazak problems on the model number - i.e. if you decide you want a pretty SR T9 4-4-0 make sure you check out the Mazak thread here on this site for the R numbers to avoid.  But you'll be wanting Panniers and 45xx from Bachmann, a 14xx from Hornby (or maybe a Hattons one if you can find one), 61xx and you've got Hornby and Dapol, Collett Goods are Bachmann and Dean Goods are Oxford.

 

I think you get the drift, there is choice across the manufacturers and I've had plenty of Hornby SR models (M7s and T9s that ran beautifully, as did Beattie Well Tanks and 02 Tanks from DJM/Kernow.

 

I've been modelling N gauge all my adult life, but did make a foray into 00 a few years back and now in my fifties I am back in N and still enjoying it. 

[Oldddudders]

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Dapol? May be good for N Gauge but much of their 00 range is outdated junk, especially the rolling stock. Good for diesels (52 and 68 especially), but most of their steam outline models was always a bit rubbish.

I cannot let this broad-brush condemnation pass without comment. 

 

I have, in the last few years, bought multiple OO Dapol locos which look and work every bit as well as I would like. They are a 43xx and a Manor, three B4 dock-tanks, a BR bubble-car, and a streamlined GWR railcar. All look entirely appropriate alongside models from  other contemporary manufacturers.

 

I fail to see how any of these could be regarded as outdated junk. Please explain. 

[Steven B]

On 01/10/2022 at 19:00, rab said:

I've come to the conclusion that going for N gauge so I could get more in a small space,

may have been a good idea when I was planning the layout in my late 50's/early 60's,

but trying to curve flexitrack, fit rail-joiners and fasten track when you're in your 70's,

clumsy and fumble fingered is a different matter.

 

Is it just N Gauge track that's the issue? If so, have a play with some Kato Unitrack before you send your locos & rolling stock to new homes. Whilst you'll be more restricted in terms of range of points and crossings, it's virtually fool proof in its use.

 

Steven B.

 

 

[rab]

5 hours ago, Steven B said:

 

Is it just N Gauge track that's the issue? If so, have a play with some Kato Unitrack before you send your locos & rolling stock to new homes. Whilst you'll be more restricted in terms of range of points and crossings, it's virtually fool proof in its use.

 

Steven B.

 

 

Thanks @Steven B. Another obvious alternative but one I'd overlooked.

Had a quick look at it online; I think I'll get a small track pack and have a play

[rab]

On 03/10/2022 at 18:55, rab said:

Thanks @Steven B. Another obvious alternative but one I'd overlooked.

Had a quick look at it online; I think I'll get a small track pack and have a play

Kato Track Pack received, had a play, think I can handle this.

 

The differences in angles (15, 30 v 11 1/4, 22 1/2) mean a bit of redesigning,

but much less than starting again in OO would have.