Hornby announce TT:120

[Les1952]

2 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

How many "bricks and mortar" model shops are left? The last one here closed down thirty years ago. Now I do live within an hours drive from Gaugemaster's big shed next to Ford station so I can go and see product "in the flesh" without too much trouble but half the population do not live that sort of travel time from one of the remaining big box shifter outfits. The internet plus "in the flesh" viewing at shows is how sales will go in the future.

 

I still have a "bricks and mortar" model shop I can walk to in under an hour - and it has just changed hands.  Access Models of Newark - also sells radio control and wargames.  Very good at glues and other bits though Steve did run down the model railway side when he thought he might not get a buyer for the business.  There were boxes of newly delivered Hornby stuff waiting to be opened when i was in there a few days ago...

 

Les

[NHY 581]

Ultimately, it will come down to how well Hornby have prepared themselves to function as a retailer. How they deal with faulty items, how they give advice when a customer has issues, how they look after their customers in general. 

It will be on this, as much as the quality, fidelity and reliability of the stock which will dictate success or failure of this venture. 

 

Rob

[Covkid]

5 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Surely all locos with a Next18 is something? Just one type of decoder needed. (2 if you want sound)

The current 00 range has 8pin, 6 pin, 21 Pin, (Any others?)

 

Next 18 and Plux 22 at least

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, Covkid said:

 

Next 18 and Plux 22 at least

I've never encountered those, which Hornby 00 locos have them?

[Steamport Southport]

7 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

Ultimately, it will come down to how well Hornby have prepared themselves to function as a retailer. How they deal with faulty items, how they give advice when a customer has issues, how they look after their customers in general. 

It will be on this, as much as the quality, fidelity and reliability of the stock which will dictate success or failure of this venture. 

 

Rob

 

The same as they perform now?

 

Never had a problem with items bought direct from Hornby.

 

 

Jason

[phil-b259]

12 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

The page on the Hornby website about the benefits of TT is interesting.

 

Benefits they list include:

• "Entire range DCC ready"
• "Internationally accepted track geometry"
• "Uses NEM standards on new models"
• "Regular new product announcements"

They also admit no advantages to OO - how much of a future do Hornby see for it?

 

Well if you are trying to push a new line - and this announcement was all about the new TT range NOT the current 00 offering, then you are going to talk it up as being far better than what you already sell. Its called basic business marketing which any remotely competent company should be doing as a mater of course when launching a NEW product line!

 

For this to work Hornby NEED people to go out and start buying in volume - you don't get that to happen by waxing lyrical about how great your existing 00 range are just fine do you?

 

There are 4 basic scenarios out there:-

 

(1) This takes off and generates far more sales than 00 over the next 5 years leading Hornby to gradually withdraw from the 00 scene

 

(2) Both ranges do well and Hornby receive a much needed financial boost with plenty of investment to cater for both markets

 

(3) The TT range starts well but after 5 years or so interest has dwindled and Hornby decide its not worth continuing to cater for the TT range

 

(4) The TT range fails to take off and Hornby have wasted a shed load of money for nothing - apart from making it all the more likely they will go bust.

 

Unfortunately unless you have a time machine handy you simply won't know how things will pan out in the medium to long term (i.e 5 to 10 years - given they have spent over three years preparing for this its not something they are going to give up on in a hurry), particularly as I (and many others) do not believe RMwebbers are the audience Hornby are aiming for with this range.

 

 

[Il Grifone]

On 10/10/2022 at 23:09, Vanguard 5374 said:

British OO and N both set their standards many years ago, many have been refined and altered but they’re still mongrel standards compared to the rest of the world. Triang did this with TT3, and as such it was not used outside of the UK as far as I know.

 

If mechanisms to fit models had been available all of those years ago, we would see British outline HO scale as a dominant market player instead of OO. Modern advancements allow for TT to be correct at 1:120.

 

It's not so much the motor, as the wheels and motion, as anyone who has modelled in EM, or even more so in P4, can testify.

A big problem is the restricted British Loading Gauge. For example a typical American locomotive in H0 scale is about the same size as a British locomotive in 00.

[Les1952]

I've taken the plunge and ordered The Easterner train set, largely out of nostalgia as I remember 60004 very late in life as standing pilot on 51A shed (even if it was the wrong way round)  when 60124 Kenilworth had gone off rescuing a Deltic and not come back.  

 

With Croft Spa going on sale at/after Spalding show I'll probably be disposing of most if not all of my 30 n-gauge Pacifics.  My bigger OO locos are also going as I'm not going to make anything needing bigger locos than NO PLACE uses.  My next layout is German N again (provisionally Bregenstadt) but the one after that (provisionally Broken Scar) could well be TT.   If not I'll possibly be down to one A4 as a showcase queen...

 

In the meantime if anyone is after a 10 feet by 2 feet 9 N-gauge roundy-roundy at a reasonable price come along to Spalding show and have a look at Croft Spa (shameless plug).

 

Les

 

[Les1952]

1 minute ago, Il Grifone said:

 

It's not so much the motor, as the wheels and motion, as anyone who has modelled in EM, or even more so in P4, can testify.

A big problem is the restricted British Loading Gauge. For example a typical American locomotive in H0 scale is about the same size as a British locomotive in 00.

 

Not so much NOW, but when OO was adopted rather than HO motors were a good deal bigger.

 

Les

[Craigw]

7 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

 

Not so much NOW, but when OO was adopted rather than HO motors were a good deal bigger.

 

Les

 

The motor is not the problem. It is the width of the wheel and the need for clearance. If you make wheels wider than scale and have flanges larger than scale then you need to make splashers larger and wider and that also means pushing out cylinders to gain clearance too.  On wagons and coaches, if you have longer axles then you need to push springs and axleboxes out. Some things have changed with better technology but other issues remain. This is not a thing about being an exact scale zealot, it is just reality.

 

Craig W

[melmerby]

48 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

(1) This takes off and generates far more sales than 00 over the next 5 years leading Hornby to gradually withdraw from the 00 scene

This takes off and in 5 years time Hornby decide to offer British H0 as the next big thing and wind down their 00 production.

Bachmann caught wrong footed sell the entire Branchline operation to Hornby who offer it as Oxford Rail Plus.😮

Edited October 11, 2022 by melmerby

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

Unfortunately unless you have a time machine handy you simply won't know how things will pan out in the medium to long term

 

What a waste of a time machine.  Go trainspotting, man!  Also, investments and stuff, become phenomenally rich, buy Hornby and jolly well show them how to do it right.

[Johan DC]

4 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

Next 18 and Plux 22 at least

 

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

Surely all locos with a Next18 is something? Just one type of decoder needed. (2 if you want sound)

The current 00 range has 8pin, 6 pin, 21 Pin, (Any others?)

4 pin, for the Pecketts. Don't know the RH 48DS maybe? 

 

I have locomotives (30+) and rolling stock (100+) from all the main compagnies, bar Accurascale (no GNR, NER or LNER).

I live in Belgium, so not a single one I saw in the flesh before buying. 

For me, online (youtube)reviews, sometimes a magazine and RMweb are my main source of info.

(but especially that last one is to be taken with a pinch of salt, otherwise I would sit at home with only my Rapido J70 😉)

 

 

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

8 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

(1) This takes off and generates far more sales than 00 over the next 5 years leading Hornby to gradually withdraw from the 00 scene

 

(2) Both ranges do well and Hornby receive a much needed financial boost with plenty of investment to cater for both markets

Alternatively, are they perhaps targeting 00 at the ‘collector’/‘high detail’/‘scale’ market, and TT more at the ‘train set’/‘operator’ market? Although possibly that’s a slightly odd choice when one of the main points about TT is the correct gauge.

[murphaph]

15 hours ago, Stefen1988 said:

Here is germany, we have two forums where this topic is "hot" and a big breaking news.

 

Yep, I've read through the TT120 thread myself (I also live in Germany, Hi!)

 

Hornby is not missing a trick here. TT expanded out from its "home turf" in the GDR into western Germany after the fall of the wall. Germany has the largest or second largest model railway market in the world (can't remember if the US is larger). There is a lot of interest in this announcement over here and the prices for "express steam engines" are a lot lower than those being asked here, and British steam engines are colourful by comparison to most continental ones. 

 

 

[whart57]

10 hours ago, RThompson said:

I am a little surprised the range hasn't tried to go for more of a nod to the original TT by adding a GWR castle and SR Merchant Navy which are both in the 00 range with modern CAD artwork available already to use as a basis.

 

A Castle is in a later phase and on the video the development guy mentioned a Merchant Navy was likely to happen. If he still has a job this morning we should assume that it will 

 

[JohnR]

7 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Yep, I've read through the TT120 thread myself (I also live in Germany, Hi!)

 

Hornby is not missing a trick here. TT expanded out from its "home turf" in the GDR into western Germany after the fall of the wall. Germany has the largest or second largest model railway market in the world (can't remember if the US is larger). There is a lot of interest in this announcement over here and the prices for "express steam engines" are a lot lower than those being asked here, and British steam engines are colourful by comparison to most continental ones. 

 

 

 

Also seems to be a bit chauvinistic, thinking that while we can model continental prototypes, the continentals wont want to model British ones. I wouldn't be surprised if the incompatible scales we use have put off people fo9rm modelling British outline stuff. 

[Hobby]

12 hours ago, John M Upton said:

I want to see the product in the flesh before I commit money, give it a good look over 

 

So you will... At exhibitions! Perhaps not the best idea for you but you will also see it running in real life, something the majority of model shops can't do.

 

11 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

Many are still grass roots shops. Please don't categorise all as box shifters. Many retain traditional values and take a pride in customer service. 

 

I agree with that, my local shop is one such, but having said that although he does some box shifting that doesn't appear to be his main business, so i doubt a lack of TT sales will be a major worry, especially as he does s/h where some will come in eventually.

 

10 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

making it slightly easier to get into kit building (e.g. with a range of loco kits that are relatively easy to assemble and motorise, yet still a bit beyond just assembling a snap together kit) might get more people interested in railway modelling whose interests are more about making things and building up a scene, rather than running trains. But that’s probably a discussion for another time.

 

Ooo! Triang CKD!! :)

 

9 hours ago, Zunnan said:

Got home from work to a 'Sorry we missed you' card, so went online and arranged a re-delivery for my day off work.

 

I don't follow this, many companies nowadays have a "click and collect" option where you can collect it from a local shop, usually the local corner shop, I use this option regularly and so don't have the issues you have.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Hobby
clarification

[Dunsignalling]

9 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

The page on the Hornby website about the benefits of TT is interesting.

 

Benefits they list include:

• "Entire range DCC ready"
• "Internationally accepted track geometry"
• "Uses NEM standards on new models"
• "Regular new product announcements"

They also admit no advantages to OO - how much of a future do Hornby see for it?

Hornby evidently has a corporate problem with their diminishing status/dominance in the OO market. Being the biggest isn't enough for them, ego demands they be bigger than all the rest combined.

 

Personally, I'd think it healthier if they had no more than a 50% market share, which is probably something they can see on the horizon but take a very different view of.

 

They clearly see TT:120 as a segment in which they can achieve the position of near hegemony which they once occupied in OO. However, the scenery has changed drastically in the 5 years (or thereabouts) since they dreamt up this idea and the minimum of three that they must have spent turning it into reality. 

 

My fear is that, unless the new scale takes off pretty big and pretty fast, without significantly cannibalising their own OO sales, it could take them down altogether.

 

In any event, even a successful start for TT:120 isn't going to build sufficient volume to allow Hornby to let OO "wither on the vine" in the foreseeable future.

 

John

 

 

[murphaph]

13 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the incompatible scales we use have put off people fo9rm modelling British outline stuff. 

This is almost certainly true. To many Europeans the very idea of having one scale for the rolling stock and another for the track is well, mad. We all know how it came about but that doesn't change the fact that it is off-putting for many (many in GB too, hence EM etc.). Hornby doesn't need to dominate a huge market like Germany to make good money either. They will be happy with a small slice of the big pie and TT is very popular in the former communist bloc too, where there are many people with connections to the UK these days. Lots of people I worked with in Ireland have since returned home to Poland anyway, and I suspect the same is true of many who went to the UK 20 years ago too.

[Sam Szeto]

Are the images on the Hornby website renders or real? And if they are renders, are they just scaled down of oo models with a different coupling, or actually a render of the TT model

[murphaph]

3 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Hornby evidently has a corporate problem with their diminishing status/dominance in the OO market. Being the biggest isn't enough for them, ego demands they be bigger than all the rest combined.

 

Personally, I'd think it healthier if they had no more than a 50% market share, which is probably something they can see on the horizon but take a very different view of.

 

They clearly see TT:120 as a segment in which they can achieve the position of near hegemony which they once occupied in OO. However, the scenery has changed drastically in the 5 years (or thereabouts) since they dreamt up this idea and the minimum of three that they must have spent turning it into reality. 

 

My fear is that, unless the new scale takes off pretty big and pretty fast, without significantly cannibalising their own OO sales, it could take them down altogether.

 

In any event, even a successful start for TT:120 isn't going to build sufficient volume to allow Hornby to let OO "wither on the vine" in the foreseeable future.

 

John

 

 

It would be a really foolish strategy to assume they could dominate a different scale, just because they were the first to bring a large number of models in that scale to market. There is nothing intrinsically different to 1:120 that would prevent any other company from making models in that scale, should the demand arise. Hornby's competitors in 00 make models in other scales already. Why would they not cater to the TT market should it prove popular? Hornby is going to have to live with the fact that it is just one manufacturer among several. They do seem to struggle with that idea though!

[MarkSG]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Hornby evidently has a corporate problem with their diminishing status/dominance in the OO market. Being the biggest isn't enough for them, ego demands they be bigger than all the rest combined.

 

I think "ego" is the wrong word. Hornby is, historically, the dominant supplier. Maintaining that position isn't about self-flattery, it's about keeping their investors happy and their staff employed. Hornby simply cannot afford to significantly lose market share without the very real risk of redundancies and loss of shareholder confidence.

 

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

They clearly see TT:120 as a segment in which they can achieve the position of near hegemony which they once occupied in OO. However, the scenery has changed drastically in the 5 years (or thereabouts) since they dreamt up this idea and the minimum of three that they must have spent turning it into reality. 

 

I don't think they're necessarily looking for near-hegemony. They would have known that other manufacturers were entering the market. And, I suspect, those other manufacturers knew (or had good reason to believe) that Hornby were considering it, too. But I do think they have seen an opportunity to get back into a position of clear dominance in the toy and train set market.

 

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

My fear is that, unless the new scale takes off pretty big and pretty fast, without significantly cannibalising their own OO sales, it could take them down altogether.

 

It's probably worth noting that the announcement hasn't had any effect on the share price. It's stayed flat all week, neither rising nor falling. So investors aren't rushing to judgment on it at the moment.

 

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

In any event, even a successful start for TT:120 isn't going to build sufficient volume to allow Hornby to let OO "wither on the vine" in the foreseeable future.

 

I can't see Hornby allowing OO to fade away in the foreseeable future. In the long term, a lot does depend on how this all plays out in the train set market. Once upon a time, train sets were O gauge, and that was supplanted by OO. And the hobby followed suit, mainly because most modellers tend to stick with the gauge they started with when they had a train set as a child. If TT starts selling better than OO in the train set market, then in the long run Hornby may well reposition themselves as a TT supplier just as they once pivoted from O to OO. But that's a long time in the future. 

[Dunsignalling]

11 hours ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

 

(Although that said), Hornby are making a huge mistake by not allowing physical retailers to sell the TT range, I can understand why from a financial case, but there are mad not to get this stuff out there.

 

 

And if Hornby's direct sales are disappointing, neither said retailers, or even serial remainderists Hatton's, will be interested in taking the leftovers off their hands, however cheaply. 

 

The more I look at this, the more I think that for Hornby, unless TT;120 amounts to a new beginning, it could easily spell the end. If it works, they reap all the rewards; if it doesn't, there's nowhere to spread the pain.

 

John

[CF MRC]

It’s interesting comparing the A4 photo taken for WoR  Against the A4 image from the train set. 

I don’t have a good image of the Corgi A4, which I suspect was the body used in the WoR photo, but the train set image looks substantially better and it is unlikely to be the 00 version (chassis is different).
 

Tim