Hornby announce TT:120

[Dunsignalling]

51 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Yep, I've read through the TT120 thread myself (I also live in Germany, Hi!)

 

Hornby is not missing a trick here. TT expanded out from its "home turf" in the GDR into western Germany after the fall of the wall. Germany has the largest or second largest model railway market in the world (can't remember if the US is larger). There is a lot of interest in this announcement over here and the prices for "express steam engines" are a lot lower than those being asked here, and British steam engines are colourful by comparison to most continental ones. 

 

 

 

The big question, which nobody can yet answer with any confidence, is how Hornby TT:120 may (or may not) match continental expectations on detail, performance and quality.

 

John

 

['CHARD]

26 minutes ago, Sam Szeto said:

Are the images on the Hornby website renders or real? And if they are renders, are they just scaled down of oo models with a different coupling, or actually a render of the TT model

 

Hi, it was established several pages back that pictures of certain OO rolling stock have been photo-shopped with TT couplings for the launch of this new range.

 

However, as others have said, the 1:120 Corgi die-cast range has also featured, probably(!!!), and perhaps a couple of the train-set locos are possibly ready, to hand and have already been photographed.

Edited October 12, 2022 by 'CHARD
Grammar 'n' speeling.

[melmerby]

21 minutes ago, Sam Szeto said:

Are the images on the Hornby website renders or real? And if they are renders, are they just scaled down of oo models with a different coupling, or actually a render of the TT model

As Andy has said several timesin this topic the images are 00 models with scaled TT120 couplings shown

[rembrow]

12 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

And if Hornby's direct sales are disappointing, neither said retailers, or even serial remainderists Hatton's, will be interested in taking the leftovers off their hands, however cheaply. 

 

The more I look at this, the more I think that for Hornby, unless TT;120 amounts to a new beginning, it could easily spell the end. If it works, they reap all the rewards; if it doesn't, there's nowhere to spread the pain.

 

John

I agree and I wouldn't be surprised if retailers, having seen the writing on the wall with the allocation fiasco, withdrawal of area reps and now this confirmation that Hornby us pulling the rug out from under them, use remaining time to diversify and expand brand recognition of the other brands in the market. That would take the rug out from Hornby, who are reliant still on retail sales  until this takes off or not. I feel Hornby need a big kick up the backside from those they have been kicking.

Others produce in multiple scales, all that has happened is that Hornby want to be a big slug in the cabbage patch. 

I gave up with Hornby after the allocation fiasco and the double 10% price rises. I knoe they are not interested in me as I model in oo. I don't really know where they believe the large level of new interest will be. Model railways do not have the widespread interest they had in the period before the millenium and I don't think a new gauge will do anything to garner the interest they need to make it profitable. 

[Hobby]

16 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

So investors aren't rushing to judgment on it at the moment.

 

Shame the same can't be said for some people on here! If any investors have read some people's posts they'd be running for the hills by now... 

 

There are lots of "what ifs" and scenarios about what might happen but I find it sad that a large number of posts are damning the launch without any concrete evidence about what will happen. as someone else said we don't have a time machine so we simply don't know. 

 

It would be nice to get back to the models rather than continual speculation and knocking of Hornby, they should be applauded for having a go in a new market, not knocked down for it.

[Hobby]

4 minutes ago, rembrow said:

I agree and I wouldn't be surprised if retailers, having seen the writing on the wall with the allocation fiasco, withdrawal of area reps and now this confirmation that Hornby us pulling the rug out from under them, use remaining time to diversify and expand brand recognition of the other brands in the market. That would take the rug out from Hornby, who are reliant still on retail sales  until this takes off or not. I feel Hornby need a big kick up the backside from those they have been kicking.

 

 

Perhaps Hornby are just taking on the risk on a new scale where no-one is sure how it will pan out. I doubt retailers would be too keen on spending lots of cash only to have the stock sitting doing nothing. As someone said many pages ago they could be doing the retailers a favour... Who knows!

 

6 minutes ago, rembrow said:

I don't really know where they believe the large level of new interest will be.

 

How many times this phrase has been repeated over this (and other TT) threads! Yet, even though RMWeb is but a small number of railway modellers, quite a few of us have already put in orders and, as some people have pointed out we aren't even the main market Hornby are aiming at... I suspect that Hornby's marketing experts have a far better idea than us what they are expecting and are better placed to see the whole picture than a limited number of people on a model railway forum.

[jonnyuk]

9 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Shame the same can't be said for some people on here! If any investors have read some people's posts they'd be running for the hills by now... 

 

There are lots of "what ifs" and scenarios about what might happen but I find it sad that a large number of posts are damning the launch without any concrete evidence about what will happen. as someone else said we don't have a time machine so we simply don't know. 

 

It would be nice to get back to the models rather than continual speculation and knocking of Hornby, they should be applauded for having a go in a new market, not knocked down for it.

100% agree, some people (and usually the same ones) just like to knock Hornby for what ever reason, see the negative in everything with a red box. Don't get me wrong, Hornby have invited some of this onto them selves but still........Maybe Hornby should change the colour of the box for TT stuff to black and yellow?

This is a gamble, is it a huge one, not so sure on that. Hornby would not risk it all on this venture, they still have a massive OO presence and always will.

How much money have they sunk into it, where has this money come from, is it loans, capital built up over the last few years?

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by jonnyuk

[JSpencer]

It has to be remembered that Hornby is still, by and large, the main (almost the only) entry point into our hobby. Bachmann don't do a railroad range for example. And maybe Railroad is becoming old hat now....

 

I've chewed this over the past few days and have had thoughts about an entire DCC layout. My OO range is far too vast to convert to DCC, equally my layout using a cab-like control, does not lend itself to such conversion, not without re-wiring. And I have plans to expand that which makes it too painful to take to shows.

Now I'm dabbling a little in OO-9. Some of the locos are really too small to convert to DCC (especially sound), so I either concentrate more on the larger end but I then loose the charm of the small locos that I prefer.

But TT gives me an option to start afresh using entirely DCC and a layout compact enough for shows. This would need to be layout focused on a time period and region. Something we don't have right now. I guess I'll watch this space. 

[rembrow]

30 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Perhaps Hornby are just taking on the risk on a new scale where no-one is sure how it will pan out. I doubt retailers would be too keen on spending lots of cash only to have the stock sitting doing nothing. As someone said many pages ago they could be doing the retailers a favour... Who knows!

 

 

How many times this phrase has been repeated over this (and other TT) threads! Yet, even though RMWeb is but a small number of railway modellers, quite a few of us have already put in orders and, as some people have pointed out we aren't even the main market Hornby are aiming at... I suspect that Hornby's marketing experts have a far better idea than us what they are expecting and are better placed to see the whole picture than a limited number of people on a model railway forum.

As you will have seen on here already from those who are retailers, they weren't given the opportunity to be involved. Many of us value our retailers, be it by direct visit or by on line use, I do both and I have seen and discussed with two I know, the treatment they have been meeted out by Hornby. I have much greater interest and respect for the retailers I use, as they have supported me for many years. I lost one retailer that I'd known for 35 years, five years ago, when they gave up primarily due to Hornb's actions with it's smaller customers.

RMweb may be small in terms of overall purchasers, but we are a dedicated group of enthusiasts and as such are statistically important to any new model railway project. Most who have posted have little interest in this, as we are committed already to one or more guages. Let's not forget that 'n' gauge is much smaller in overall sales than 'oo' despite being marketed for years as the gauge for smaller areas. Yes there will be a place for 'tt' but I suspect no more in volume than 'n' 

Edited October 12, 2022 by rembrow

[Hroth]

11 hours ago, jonnyuk said:

100% agree, some people (and usually the same ones) just like to knock Hornby for what ever reason, see the negative in everything with a red box. Don't get me wrong, Hornby have invited some of this onto them selves but still........Maybe Hornby should change the colour of the box for TT stuff to black and yellow?

This is a gamble, is it a huge one, not so sure on that. Hornby would not risk it all on this venture, they still have a massive OO presence and always will.

How much money have they sunk into it, where has this money come from, is it loans, capital built up over the last few years?

 

 

Yellow was the box colour for Triang TT3, so there would be a historic resonance.

 

Actually, I think that SK announced TT:120 to take the heat off the "Lion" thread....

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Hroth
A couple of missed letters... And I only just noticed I'd typed a C for a K!

[PaulRhB]

30 minutes ago, rembrow said:

use remaining time to diversify and expand brand recognition of the other brands in the market. That would take the rug out from Hornby,

Well how are they going to do that when Hornby is a bit like Hoover and the de facto name for model trains known to the media? 😉

Hornby is pretty much the only brand known outside the hobby and they also own Corgi and Airfix the other similarly famous names plus Bassett Lowke which they’ve tried twice themselves to re establish somewhat less successfully. 
So it’s not the enthusiasts you need to catch the attention of it’s the general public. Bachmann getting the Thomas license is a great way to introduce your brand name into the wider market but Thomas isn’t the huge juggernaut it once was in toys for brand awareness. I’m guessing that’s why Hornby dropped it. They may be regretting that a bit as they won’t have it for TT and I’m a little surprised they didn’t bring out a Harry Potter set to fire the markets up in this Christmas opening to the range. 
This is where earlier comments about going for the new market, general public, over enthusiasts don’t really convince me as there’s no film or tv tie in to get national press attention. Even a new series of the tv show with Hornby launching a new range on all the adverts would get them some general media exposure.
Instead it appears the day after GETS, no tv adverts or exposure in the big press. Have they sold it to the Christmas toy sellers? There’s nothing there that screams here’s something fun for Xmas to the wider market. It doesn’t strike me as anything but marketing to enthusiasts so far, somewhat successfully on here 😆
 

[Johan DC]

11 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

 

 

Actually, I think that SC announced TT:120 to take the heat off the "Lion" thread....

 

 

 

🤔 😀

[Denbridge]

On 10/10/2022 at 12:17, woodenhead said:

Can't compete in OO, you can only retool big locos so many times, N too small for a big entry, this is prime for Hornby and for once I agree there is heritage for the company.

Can't compete in OO? So why do Hornby remain the market leaders? I think you're letting personal prejudice cloud your reasoning.

[Hobby]

16 minutes ago, rembrow said:

RMweb may be small in terms of overall purchasers, but we are a dedicated group of enthusiasts and as such are statistically important to any new model railway project.

 

I feel you over-estimate the forum's influence, especially in this scenario. As Paul rightly says we are not the target for sales of TT, though I'm sure they will welcome any sales that they do make to forum members!

 

17 minutes ago, rembrow said:

Most who have posted have little interest in this, as we are committed already to one or more gauges.

 

I'd never have guessed(!), so if no interest why all the negativity, why not just leave it alone rather than keep repeating the same old stuff over and over (and before I get accused of doing just that I'd suggest that people look in their mirror before saying it). At least I'm interested in TT, have modelled in the scale and have made a purchase. Whatever I feel about Hornby I still feel that it's important to support them in their efforts to kick start a new scale, not just knock it.

 

I do agree that sales is likely to be around N scale size, but that's no bad thing and would certainly be sufficient to keep Hornby going.

[spamcan61]

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Alternatively, are they perhaps targeting 00 at the ‘collector’/‘high detail’/‘scale’ market, and TT more at the ‘train set’/‘operator’ market? Although possibly that’s a slightly odd choice when one of the main points about TT is the correct gauge.

That's my take on it, especially as they're going to be advertising TT:120 in the national papers. It does indeed seem odd to worry about the correct gauge in that scenario, so maybe that's on the basis they're hoping to pick up sales from the overseas TT collector market.

[friscopete]

13 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

Can't compete in OO? So why do Hornby remain the market leaders? I think you're letting personal prejudice cloud your reasoning.

God forbid on this site .All postings are the  result of well reasoned non prejudicial thought processes....arent they ?

[009 micro modeller]

8 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

That's my take on it, especially as they're going to be advertising TT:120 in the national papers. It does indeed seem odd to worry about the correct gauge in that scenario, so maybe that's on the basis they're hoping to pick up sales from the overseas TT collector market.

The reason I said that is that there are some manufacturers producing two scales that do the same. Isn’t Japanese railway modelling a bit like that? N as the mainstream scale, a bit of H0 to quite a high specification and cost and then some very short run, highly detailed 0 scale models?

Edited October 12, 2022 by 009 micro modeller

[Il Grifone]

11 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

Not so much NOW, but when OO was adopted rather than HO motors were a good deal bigger.

 

Les

 

Commercial motors maybe* but the first demonstartion of a working 2mm/ft, model  dates from 1927.

http://www.2mm.org.uk/history.html

 

* 00 is blamed on the first Bing sets in the early twenties; allegedly 3.5mm/ft (if scale is appropriate for a rather crude toy) their large size (German loading gauge) was countered by a  claim that they are 4mm scale and the rest is history!

This problem has lumbered us with 1, 1: 29 and 32 (mainly American), 0, 1: 43 and 45, 00/H0 1:76, 80, and 87, TT 1:100 (approx.) and 120, and N/000 1:148, 152, and 160. If only they had listened to Stephenson and Brunel!

(The replica 'Rocket' has a considerably shorter chimney than the original!)

[009 micro modeller]

3 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

0, 1: 43 and 45

Also 1:48 (for American 0) although in that case the 32mm gauge track ends up being overscale.

[woodenhead]

42 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

Can't compete in OO? So why do Hornby remain the market leaders? I think you're letting personal prejudice cloud your reasoning.

It's an increasingly crowded market and not a great deal of new stuff to do - especially in big shiny express locos without going over the whole range again with a new finer toothcomb.

 

They want to establish a new captive market they can own for the time being, and it may be successful.  I don't have any prejudice against Hornby, however, they haven't been treating customers or retailers very nicely for a few years now and taking TT120 straight to online only means retailers don't get to share in any success that comes from this initiative.

[murphaph]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

The big question, which nobody can yet answer with any confidence, is how Hornby TT:120 may (or may not) match continental expectations on detail, performance and quality.

 

John

 

I'm not sure they have to. They definitely don't have to match top quality stuff because the German market at least also has room for less detailed ranges (see the Piko "Hobby" range). They obviously can't offer tat to the market and they had better watch the QC process very carefully at the beginning, lest they get a name for selling rubbish. A bad name at the start would be very hard to shake later.

[Hroth]

As an alternative to the big steam boxed sets Hornby could have done an "Early Heritage Railway" set with the blue 08 and a couple of Mk1 coaches...

 

[Guest]

What gets me about this new venture into TT (by both Hornby here and others, such as Heljan, Peco, etc...) is that if it had started much earlier, I might have considered it! But I'm already too invested with what I already own. One day perhaps, but we'll see, if it does become very successful and even overtakes OO (as well as N scale) then great! At the moment, I have an 8 x 4ft board and it has got me pondering on what I could potentially fit and run on it! For instance, the possibility of running prototypical length MGR coal trains, as well as full length HSTs and loco-hauled passenger services (the latter of load 6 and over).

 

But in any case it is still all but pipedream. I'll still be pressing ahead with what I've already got. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Guest

[Hobby]

12 minutes ago, Hroth said:

As an alternative to the big steam boxed sets Hornby could have done an "Early Heritage Railway" set with the blue 08 and a couple of Mk1 coaches...

 

 

Can't remember (m)any "early" heritage railways (60s or early 70s) with that set-up, most had some sort of steam loco, usually a tank or small tender engine? Perhaps when the later loco phases have come out, which include smaller steam locos we may see something along those lines, though. Also i suspect a basic goods set like Triang used to do - I see "Polly" is already mentioned somewhere (lost the place just now!)...

[Nearholmer]

3 minutes ago, R. Knowles said:

But I'm already too invested with what I already own

A great many people naturally are, but a great many people naturally aren’t.

 

Scales have waxed and waned before: Gauge 1 was a significant proportion of the (then still small) market until knocked off its perch by 0, which was knocked off its perch by 00 not long after, the size of the market overall growing with each step down in size.

 

N seems never to have done the same in Britain, Europe, USA etc, although it is possibly dominant in Japan.

 

So, we could be witnessing a significant shift. Or, a flash in the pan.