Hornby announce TT:120

[whart57]

35 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Do you seriously think Hornby haven't thought this through and have an understanding of the basics of how a business operates, market research, financial backing etc, etc.

I don't know the ins and outs personally but I'm sure a multi-million pound operation like Hornby do.

 

 

Hornby can't be expected to have predicted Covid or Trussonomics. It's really unlucky timing to make your big launch a day or two after the Chancellor has made everyone with a mortgage a hundred quid poorer each month

[jonhall]

38 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Do you seriously think Hornby haven't thought this through and have an understanding of the basics of how a business operates, market research, financial backing etc, etc.

I don't know the ins and outs personally but I'm sure a multi-million pound operation like Hornby do.

 

 

Unfortunately some of Hornby's recent decisions has made some of us wonder if they do...

 

...and that seems to be reflected in the financial performance of their business - they are not exactly making money, are they?

 

Jon

[davidw]

1 hour ago, Trainnoob said:

Off course everyone has different views. I find these price tags a bit steep for a smaller scale, the price for me makes no economic sense to move from 00 down to TT. There are 00 scale sets that are cheaper then this.

 

However I feel like this is a good step from Hornby, instead of just trying to compete with others Hornby seems to be attempting uniqueness.

Quite and I don't think they'll stay this low either. IMHO the rises that Hornby  have applied to  the OO range will filter through to this range and I suspect those rises have helped finance this too 

[britishcolumbian]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Another lifetime is something none of us have. Unless you are under 20, with a loco fetish that matches Hornby's, I'd recommend sticking with OO.

 

If in all these years (I'm 46) I've never been able to get myself past the scale/gauge mismatch of British modelling, I'm not going to get past it now.

[TomE]

22 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

N gauge market share here seems genuinely abnormally low. There seems an opening for an alternative small-scale product.

 

Or the limited market size for a smaller scale in the UK has already been fullfilled by N and TT will find itself trying to fill a gap that doesn’t really exist. 
 

N Gauge has seen a total transformation since Bachmann took over the Farish range, pushed on by Dapol’s entry and latterly Revolution Trains, to make it a more attractive alternative to OO in terms of detail, features, reliability and range. If N hasn’t been able to shift it’s market share upward, even with those improvements and in the face of shrinking house sizes, what chance does a railroad level product have with limited range, limited distribution and limited exposure?  

 

Point accepted on total market share, I wasn’t considering the other scales.

 

Tom.

[HonestTom]

11 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Tell me about it, I chose to have my trainset in my bedroom instead of a bed.  I sleep on my sofa at the moment, although I am suffering a bit for it 🤣

 

 

I'm strictly a micro-layout man at this point and TBH, 009 takes up most of my modelling time these days.

 

I think Hornby may be thinking in these sorts of terms, though. One thing they do emphasise in their publicity is the storage advantages. Without getting into a rant about the housing market (I've rewritten this paragraph about five times), there are an awful lot of people who can't afford to buy a house or even a sizeable flat, even on a substantial income. I'm looking at TT and thinking, could I build a decent, portable Inglenook with that?

Edited October 13, 2022 by HonestTom

[MyRule1]

10 minutes ago, jonhall said:

 

Unfortunately some of Hornby's recent decisions has made some of us wonder if they do...

 

...and that seems to be reflected in the financial performance of their business - they are not exactly making money, are they?

 

Jon

 Have you actually read the most recent Hornby Group annual report when making this statement? They made a profit before tax of over three million pounds double the year before.

 

10 minutes ago, jonhall said:

 

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by MyRule1

[Steamport Southport]

9 minutes ago, TomE said:

 

Or the limited market size for a smaller scale in the UK has already been fullfilled by N and TT will find itself trying to fill a gap that doesn’t really exist. 
 

N Gauge has seen a total transformation since Bachmann took over the Farish range, pushed on by Dapol’s entry and latterly Revolution Trains, to make it a more attractive alternative to OO in terms of detail, features, reliability and range. If N hasn’t been able to shift it’s market share upward, even with those improvements and in the face of shrinking house sizes, what chance does a railroad level product have with limited range, limited distribution and limited exposure?  

 

Point accepted on total market share, I wasn’t considering the other scales.

 

Tom.

 

Can I just point you to a thread on here?

 

And suggest that whatever the answer is, N Gauge isn't it. I've heard this problem for decades. It's too small for many people and certainly doesn't solve the correct gauge/scale ratio.

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited October 13, 2022 by Steamport Southport

[britishcolumbian]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

Completely new coupling system, which looks rather odd. Can you close couple, shunt etc , automatic uncoupling - not really a lot of information around that?

How many times must it be said that this is NOT a new coupling system, it's the Continental standard that has been around for years.

[blueeighties]

11 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Their backers (the banks presumably) appear to have faith in them to make a profit from this but if you know better than them 🤷‍♂️

It's not a case of 'knowing better', it's there for all to see in company accounts. Open your eyes.

[Dunsignalling]

5 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Yep, I'm one of them.  Funny (?!), I can't get a mortgage costing £400 a month on a nice little flat because I don't "earn enough" yet I shell out £550 a month, every month in rent.  Utterly bonkers!

 

I'm fortunate enough to be still living in the terraced house I bought in 1983, never having needed to move for work reasons. Superb timing, as I doubt that I could have done it if I'd left it much later.

 

The market was bonkers then, and it hasn't acquired any sanity since.

 

John

['CHARD]

5 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I'm fortunate enough to be still living in the terraced house I bought in 1983, never having needed to move for work reasons. Superb timing, as I doubt that I could have done it if I'd left it much later.

 

The market was bonkers then, and it hasn't acquired any sanity since.

 

John

 

You could just as easily be known as 'Dunmoving' on here, John 😉

[PaulRhB]

Well I wonder how many have ordered something on here? A few have from posts. 
No doubt the big wider media push will only happen once the sets are here and ready to ship or they’d have lots of frustrated customers. No one but Hornby will have any idea how this is going. They can even create an impression of selling out fast by allocating stock to the website in batches so until the results come out to shareholders next year it may be impossible to tell 😉

[TomE]

5 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Can I just point you to a thread on here?

 

And suggest that whatever the answer is, N Gauge isn't it. I've heard this problem for decades. It's too small for many people and certainly doesn't solve the correct gauge/scale ratio.

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

Are you suggesting one person giving up on N means it’s not a viable scale?    
 

I absolutely accept that N will not be suitable for some, however I suspect it will be the older end of the age scale that discount it and logically that’s where Hornby should be targeting TT. But they’re not, they’re targeting new entrants at the younger end of the age range who will most likely not have any problem handling or working in N Gauge where they will find a much bigger range and wider support base. 
 

I also suspect the scale/gauge ratio issue is only a concern to a tiny fraction of the modelling customer base, and those are the people will look to 2FS, EM or P4 if they’re that worried about it. 
 

Tom. 

[melmerby]

11 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

If you need anymore figures, Google it for yourself.

Why google when you can read the official original figures?:

 

companies_house_document(2).pdf

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by melmerby

[britishcolumbian]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

TT:120 has been around on the continent for decades but TTBOMK, it's no higher than the fourth most popular scale in any country.

Inaccurate. Easily 2nd in Hungary, essentially tied for 1st in ex USSR, 2nd or close to 2nd in Poland, CZ, SK... easily 2nd in the former East Germany...

[Dunsignalling]

6 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

Inaccurate. Easily 2nd in Hungary, essentially tied for 1st in ex USSR, 2nd or close to 2nd in Poland, CZ, SK... easily 2nd in the former East Germany...

My post duly edited.

 

So, has TT:120 always been essentially a Soviet Bloc/ex-Soviet Bloc, thing and to what extent has it spread beyond that up to now? 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[melmerby]

Why isn't there a TT-120 replacement for the rock bottom starter sets in 00? (currently start around £80)

https://www.argos.co.uk/product/9343153?clickSR=slp:term:Hornby train sets:2:23:1

 

e.g. basic 4 wheel tank or diesel, 2 or 3 x wagons or 2 or 3 x 4 wheel coaches, complete with a basic controller and some track?

 

Or have I missed it?

[britishcolumbian]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

So, has it always been essentially a Soviet Bloc/ex-Soviet Bloc, thing and to what extent has it spread beyond that up to now? 

Gradual, to be sure, but it's happening. It's gone from virtually unknown curiosity in western Europe to 4th in 20 years. There are more and more western models appearing, gradually, but it's happening. There's even been an RTR North American locomotive issued, and RTR NorAm rolling stock, and a surge in cottage industry production of NorAm.

 

But even if it weren't, the fact is that the ex Soviet Bloc are now fully part of the western world and the people have money to spend on hobbies (occasional economic troubles notwithstanding), so it's a market manufacturers have realised is now worth exploiting with RTR production.

 

TT is growing, and with surprising speed.

[spamcan61]

2 hours ago, BRTrainz said:

Looking at tweets on the product line on Twitter, I noticed someone pointing out that Hornby seems to have pretty glaringly messed up the counterweight positions on the A3/A4 wheels.

Was seriously considering preordering the A4 set but might wait to see if it's fixed on actual production.

I saw a response from Hornby on FB stating they knew and would be fixed in production.

Edited October 13, 2022 by spamcan61

[Steamport Southport]

1 minute ago, TomE said:

Are you suggesting one person giving up on N means it’s not a viable scale?    
 

I absolutely accept that N will not be suitable for some, however I suspect it will be the older end of the age scale that discount it and logically that’s where Hornby should be targeting TT. But they’re not, they’re targeting new entrants at the younger end of the age range who will most likely not have any problem handling or working in N Gauge where they will find a much bigger range and wider support base. 
 

I also suspect the scale/gauge ratio issue is only a concern to a tiny fraction of the modelling customer base, and those are the people will look to 2FS, EM or P4 if they’re that worried about it. 
 

Tom. 

 

No, I'm suggesting N Gauge isn't the solution to the problems that are making TT viable and why Hornby has just spent millions on it. If it was, don't you think Hornby would have made N Gauge instead?

 

IF N Gauge was so good, how come it doesn't even equate to more than the 5 to 10% of the current market? If that. I was an early adopter of N Gauge and it hasn't progressed in those 45 years. Still has that awful coupling system for starters.

 

 

I think you're another one that didn't watch the video and look at the information Hornby highlighted as the reasons for going down this route. N gauge is too small was definitely mentioned as was the closer scale/gauge ratio.

 

 

Jason

[Hobby]

56 minutes ago, rogerzilla said:

the space issue mainly applies to homes with children taking up the bedrooms, so layouts need to be packed away.

 

29 minutes ago, TomE said:

Or the limited market size for a smaller scale in the UK has already been fullfilled by N and TT will find itself trying to fill a gap that doesn’t really exist. 

 

It's interesting re home (not house!) size, I suspect that N never took off in Eastern Europe simply because TT was there first and N offered no real advantages and TT had the advantage of being less fiddly. I've been in a few of the old Eastern Bloc blocks of flats and they are pretty close to modern UK housing sizes, i.e. "compact"!

 

Now N has never really been pushed hard in the way 00 was pushed, i.e. train sets, size advantage in modern homes, etc. Yes there's been some stuff  about it's size advantage over 00 in the enthusiasts market, probably starting off with CJF's N scale plans booklets, but when did Bachmann play that card? Most marketing has been rehashing 00 into smaller spaces which is fine if you want an Inglenook or branch terminus but not if you like to see stuff running or have kids which do the same. From what I can see that market is exactly where Hornby are aiming themselves, someone (adults and children) without the room for 00 and want to see stuff running and there's simply no competition from N as it's mainly aimed at enthusiasts like people on here.

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Do you seriously think Hornby haven't thought this through and have an understanding of the basics of how a business operates, market research, financial backing etc, etc.

I don't know the ins and outs personally but I'm sure a multi-million pound operation like Hornby do.

 

How many times have Hornby gone bankrupt or near as dammit in the last 50 years though?

[Hobby]

10 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Why isn't there a TT-120 replacement for the rock bottom starter sets in 00? (currently start around £80)

 

Priorities I expect. Large express engine sets have more pulling power than the sort of set you suggest. However Hornby have indicated that small tank engines will be coming along in due course and so that sort of set will appear. 

[Dunsignalling]

3 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

How many times have Hornby gone bankrupt or near as dammit in the last 50 years though?

 

They do seem to have been somewhat "accident prone" don't they?

 

Hope this isn't the next pitfall.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Dunsignalling