Hornby announce TT:120

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, franciswilliamwebb said:

 

Funny you should mention Silver Bullets.  I wish, but seeing the rest of the debut freight range I'm expecting a Polo Mint Tanker real soon 😉

Wot? No giraffe car? 🦒

[andythenorth]

29 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

it looks like a separate piece to me.

Removable boiler top, for insertion of DCC and the as-yet-announced smoke generator.

 

Alternatively, a mould line, for accurate 1960s nostalgia.

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

Long dead frogs.

 

Leaving the finer scale stuff to Peco I expect. We have the dead frog discussion on 009 forums all the time but fron my experience of 0-4-0 mechanisms its track laying that causes any issues rather than the dead frog. I expect any layouts laid on carpets or trackmats the locos will be going too fast to notice it anyhow! ;)

Edited October 15, 2022 by Hobby

[Ravenser]

38 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Anyone else think this is a handrail, extending to the dome, then over the boiler ?

(Extract from HonestToms picture 1 page back).

 

it looks like a separate piece to me.

 

i can can see a faint line in the same place in the one behind it too.

 

 

Possibly more serious - should the steam pipe be that side of the boiler on an A3?

[Hobby]

Perhaps they aren't the production versions... Cobbled together just for show because the real thing is just round the corner? Until we see what we know is a production version perhaps too early to start making comments? It's debatable if even the A4 is an actual production model rather than a pre production test model?

[JohnR]

Theres too many posts to respond to, so I'm not going to quote individuals, but here are my replies to some of the points raised.

 

Firstly, kids. I have 2 boys (ages 10 and 5), who, while also being into Minecraft etc, are also "into trains". They like my modelling efforts, and I'm working with them on creating a OO layout for them. We live on the Scottish ECML and see a variety of stock running through. What are the models they want or look out for? Eldest loves HSTs. His favourite livery? Original BR Blue/Gray. They both prefer 66s over 70s (that we see more of on freight here).  No favourite livery, but again, EWS Maroon or DB Red are appreciated. 170s are a bit "meh", but a 158 is interesting. LNER Azumas are also a bit boring (and long). Their modelling is totally eclectic. They are just as likely to want a grouping livery tank engine to run alongside a 66, or a BR Green Brush 4. The 66 is just as likely to pull an odd selection of wagons (or Mk 1 coaches) as a line of containers or TTA tanks. 

 

In short, the young family/kids market isn't into "prototypical fidelity" or "running exactly what they see today on the railway". Its nice, not essential. 

 

In terms of getting the stock into a model shop, if I was a model shop owner (and I've seriously looked into this in recent years), my concern would be the investment in Hornby TT I would have to make, with no guarantee of sales. I'd probably have to buy £20k-£40k worth of stock (if not more - thats just a back of the envelope calculation), just to get a reasonable spread of items from their range, even for my (potential) small model shop. Thats a big gamble. While this investment in TT probably wont break Hornby if it fails (their shareholder and financial backers are probably prepared for that), it WOULD break my business if it failed, and I couldn't shift that stock, and my capital was tied up in it. I'd have to heavily discount to just get some cash back to buy stuff that I know WOULD sell. So, if I had my model shop today, I wouldn't be wanting to stock much - if anything from Hornby TT. Lets see the sales figures in 12 months time, before I spend hard earned money (or expensively borrowed money) on it. 

 

I've bought one of the sets, because I want to see what its all about. 

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Delta_Who said:

Just been to Kings Cross myself. Strange seeing TT in person, it didnt look too far off OO. Was nice to see Pullmans in the correct umber. Layout behind glass and non running.

 

Correct colour or different liveries?

 

The lighter shade of Pullman livery arrived with the BR Mark One derived stock. The darker livery is correct for stock previous to that.

 

 

Jason

[spamcan61]

2 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Long dead frogs.

Sounds like a Nick Cave album title.

[RichardT]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

Possibly more serious - should the steam pipe be that side of the boiler on an A3?

No, it shouldn’t for an A3.  
 

Fortunately, the loco illustrated appears to be a Gresley A1, not an A3, so the pipe position is correct. (Note no superheater covers on the smoke box, and LNER crest not number on cab side.)

 

IIRC one of the proposed TT models is a Gresley Pacific in original condition.

 

RichardT

 

(N gauge modeller pondering what this might mean for his UK modelling.)

Edited October 15, 2022 by RichardT
Paragraphs

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

Prototype photos suggest that's the boiler handrail, in the correct place

 

The A4s have them too, but they stop short.v I think you'll find its a steam pipe. Kettles had them . A quick look at photos suggest it's entirely correct for an A4 

No, on the A3s there is a seam visible above the handrail and ejector pipe - probably related to there being a slide in the tool to allow for different domes and chimneys although there is a similar line on the  A4.  The A3s are obviously right hand drive versions, so they're actually reboilered A1s, with the elector pipe (it is not 'a steam pipe' as such) visible on the right hand side of the boiler.  We don't know whether or not the range will include production left hand drive A3s (or indeed if anybody cares about the niceties of the detail differences between them).

[TomE]

8 hours ago, Ravenser said:

But citing the very best specialist N models as indicative of the average standard in contemporary N is misleading. The very worst models you'll see in TT-120 are that A4 and the private owner wagon . Because TT-120 is starting with a clean sheet, it doesn't carry all that old coarse stuff as a legacy.

I'm comparing RTR N to RTR TT:120, I don't think there is anything misleading there. My point is the Hornby TT range does not appear to be as detailed (and those photos from KGX reaffirm my first impressions) as recent N Gauge models from Revolution, Farish, Dapol etc, and it's disappointing to keep seeing, throughout this thread, the same old outdated tropes about N still being wheeled out even in the face of clear evidence the scale has moved forward significantly in the last decade. If, as you have asserted, the main competitor to TT is N, then Hornby are not making it particularly attractive by going for something only slightly better than railroad. I'm willing to bet that those not worried about the size of N gauge, when faced with the decision, will go for detail and breadth of range over a fractionally larger scale. 

I also think comparing one corner of the hobby that is trying to approximate a prototype using old and out of date parts to a RTR range being released in 2022 is really comparing apples to oranges, and given the limited initial range I'd wager you may see more of that type of modelling in TT as people try to use the limited available parts in an attempt to produce different models. 

Tom. 

Edited October 15, 2022 by TomE

[Samedan]

Well, I have to eat humble pie, I guess. A few months ago, on a different thread, I more or less said that launching TT-120, in the then economic climate, was a massive gamble on the part of Peco and a number of other companies who were joining them, and threatened to undermine viability of their existing contribution to the hobby. Some answered not to worry, because Peco would recoup their investment in the Continental market. I also worried that some consumers would be lured into the new product, only to find that too few products emerged and that they would be left disillusioned.

All that was before Hornby’s bombshell. 
OK, as SK admits in his interview, most of their range is still in the design, pre-production stage, but Hornby have clearly been preparing for this moment for some time. For once, it seems that Hornby are actually ahead of the curve, notwithstanding that Peco and one or two others preempted their launch. 
Whilst I still have my doubts about whether there is the capacity in the hobby at present to sustain such a radical new venture, the backing of Hornby certainly gives it more of a chance. SK makes much of his almost evangelical support for the scale, even whilst the bean counters said no, on the grounds that modellers were apparently crying out for a scale between OO and N, but I suspect that the need for Hornby to grow the market in order to flex their corporate muscles and fulfil shareholder expectations was as much behind the move as anything else. 
I applaud Hornby’s declared desire to use TT 120 to win new converts to the hobby, through ambitious marketing beyond the usual channels (eg full ads in National newspapers) but I do think that their decision to retail only directly online demonstrates their characteristic corporate hubris and is extremely unfair to local model shops, which have struggled through the last couple of years and which help to sustain the grass roots of the hobby. I think it could well prove counter-productive to their aims. Time will tell. 

['CHARD]

4 hours ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

To my OO(SF) eyes, that looks like broad gauge! 🤣

Top stuff 👍

 

Why, do derailments occur with greater frequency on broad gauge?  😉

 

EDIT: On reflection, I now wonder if this could be a rigid chassis for some reason - prototype/ Corgi undergubbins?  Or just not put on the track properly.  And please note, this is in no way knocking Hornby, it's genuine interest.

 

(Check the further of the two locos 'on shed' - Ed) 

Edited October 15, 2022 by 'CHARD

[Ravenser]

22 minutes ago, RichardT said:

No, it shouldn’t for an A3.  
 

Fortunately, the loco illustrated appears to be a Gresley A1, not an A3, so the pipe position is correct. (Note no superheater covers on the smoke box, and LNER crest not number on cab side.)

 

IIRC one of the proposed TT models is a Gresley Pacific in original condition.

 

RichardT

 

(N gauge modeller pondering what this might mean for his UK modelling.)

 

Thanks. Gresley Pacifics  isn't my field - I grabbed the first suitable book to check photos and had some difficulty finding an A3 picture (1950s) in it . It was only later I had some faint notion of there being a difference in drive side for original  A1 as against A3

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

Leaving the finer scale stuff to Peco I expect. We have the dead frog discussion on 009 forums all the time but fron my experience of 0-4-0 mechanisms its track laying that causes any issues rather than the dead frog. I expect any layouts laid on carpets or trackmats the locos will be going too fast to notice it anyhow! ;)

In 009 I find that dead frogs sometimes create problems on shunting layouts with short wheelbase locos, although to be fair that’s a scenario almost designed to cause stalling on the frogs. It’s annoying in this context that Peco doesn’t currently produce a live frog 9 inch radius point in 009 or N, though they do in larger radii. It works much better with my new Minitrains locos as they have flywheels and can deal with the dead section over the frog. Does Hornby actually do any live frog points in 00 currently, out of interest?

[rob D2]

To be fair TT looks to be optimum size for round my christmas tree .

[RichardT]

1 hour ago, TomE said:

it's disappointing to keep seeing, throughout this thread, the same old outdated tropes about N still being wheeled out even in the face of clear evidence the scale has moved forward significantly in the last decade.

Hear hear.  

This thread has in many ways been RMWeb at its best: a wide-ranging discussion ignoring self-appointed moderators. But there’s been rather too much of the dark side: the repeated assertion of individual prejudices and opinions as if they were universally-accepted truths.

 

Some people may genuinely find N “too small”, but others with seemingly no experience of N do seem to be taking SK’s assertion of that at face value, ignoring the fact that he’s got a new product to flog in a different scale - he’s not going to point out that most of the advantages he claims for TT also apply to N.

 

I think I said back in the Peco TT thread that I couldn’t see why anyone modelling the post 1968 GB railway would get anything from TT that they couldn’t get in N and more. There’s a large range of post-steam stock to completely modern standards of detail and performance available, much now sound-fitted; the scale allows full length trains in a modest space, and the fixed-formation nature of much post-steam operation means that the (horrible) Rapido coupling is less of an issue. (Or fit Microtrains/Dapol knuckle couplers).

But I also wondered if TT might be a game-changer for *steam-era* modelling in a small space.  I’m working on Alne (ECML north of York) in N, pre and post war eras.  It’s possible because of the number of right or almost right items made by Dapol, Farish and now Sonic (and less detailed locos from Union Mills).  Track is Wayne Kinney’s Finetrax, so it looks good.  BUT…even as a died-in-the-wool N gauge modeller I have to admit that steam sometimes doesn’t work as well in N  - both mechanically and in terms of presence and looks especially  with outside motion.  And then there’s shunting the goods yard…

 

TT wouldn’t help with fitting my mainline into my attic, but I can see the attraction of a decently-complex steam-era BLT in a reasonably compact space where the models have presence and are mechanically easier to work on to finer standards.  See the 3mm “Masham” that was on the circuit a few years ago…

 

 

RichardT

Edited October 15, 2022 by RichardT
Adding stuff

[britishcolumbian]

1 hour ago, TomE said:

the same old outdated tropes about N still being wheeled out even in the face of clear evidence the scale has moved forward significantly in the last decade

Sure, it's moved forwards, everything has. But what N will never get past is its size. Some like it, for those it's great. But at the same time, I've heard more than a few N scalers comment at our displays at shows that had TT been available, they'd have chosen that over N.

['CHARD]

11 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

Sure, it's moved forwards, everything has. But what N will never get past is its size. Some like it, for those it's great. But at the same time, I've heard more than a few N scalers comment at our displays at shows that had TT been available, they'd have chosen that over N.

 

As a putative Waverley route modeller, lengthy secondary mainline trains (especially express freights) traversing 'big country' are my stock-in-trade.  So you could well have heard something broadly similar escape my cakehole. 

[Yorkshire Square]

38 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

To be fair TT looks to be optimum size for round my christmas tree .

 

Four of those couplings would make a grand support for your Christmas tree...

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, britishcolumbian said:

Sure, it's moved forwards, everything has. But what N will never get past is its size. Some like it, for those it's great. But at the same time, I've heard more than a few N scalers comment at our displays at shows that had TT been available, they'd have chosen that over N.

And my guess is that’s with N Scale that looks like this - even at 1:160 this is quite a bit bigger than a lot of UK N 1:148 models?

 

 

It was a luxury purchase I saw as a pre-owned bargain, but I do rather like it, Keith.

[gr.king]

If that's the actual track system on the demo layout then it's yet another example of hideously unrealistic "anything will do" stuff for the UK market, especially for the steam era. Rail section like huge girders and short spindly sleepers crammed far too closely together...

[britishcolumbian]

2 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

And my guess is that’s with N Scale that looks like this - even at 1:160 this is quite a bit bigger than a lot of UK N 1:148 models?

It is indeed.

[luke_stevens]

I went up to KX today too, not so much to see FS but to look at the TT120 and have a (brief) chat with SK. In discussion he conformed a number of points.

• Stage 1 is now until Easter next year, Stage 2 is Easter to roughtly October (next year)
• The train sets WILL be available before Christmas. I mentioned the risk of international Shipping but he was emphatic, which leads me to believe they are probably in the UK already (or nearly so)
• The LNER A3 is a production sample, the BR A3 is a pre-production sample as some of the lining still needs some work
• He wanted to make sure I had joined the club to get my 15% discount
• The Railway Modeller was wrong about club membership only being free for 3 months. That is a misunderstanding of what SK had said. If you join up until the end of Jan 23 you will get a fully 12month membership for free. If you join after this it will be £30. I said i had joined and SK said I would only need to pay when (if) I renewed in Oct 23
• The TT items with NOT be in the yearly 2023 catalogue. It will be a separate catalogue, though I think the existing brochure (of which they had none) will last into next year.
• There were quite a few people looking on but unsure what scale the layout was to
• The layout, that seemed to be working yesterday wasn't today.
• I didn't ask awkward questions about not supplying nor predatory behaviour :)

Things I didn't remember to ask!

• When are stage 3 and stage 4
• Will there be Next18 TTS chips
• Do the locomotives come pre fitted with speakers

 

I took several photos but most are similar to other already posted, but there are two worth posting.

 

1) The smokebox number is printed to the smokebox not on an vertical piece as per the prototype

 

2) 

Edited October 15, 2022 by luke_stevens

[jonnyuk]

i know very little of the prototypes but they look good and TT offers me a reason to model a different region and era that fits under the sofa or bed as apposed to my OO stuff in the shed i can't really use for 3-4 months of the year, maybe i'm your typical target audience and if so, its working.