Hornby announce TT:120

[Pacific231G]

45 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

Turning to Hornby's website 7 items of track are currently available but there is no means of buying them.  I tried to buy the track for the starter oval. Then I rang up Hornby and they said that they are not selling the track, although they have it in stock, as they have not produced any locomotives to run on it yet. They also said that there was a problem with their website and told me to try again in a few days time.

 

It was a lot easier when I could just walk into my shop and buy my track over the counter

There's always Peco or Tillig for TT track but that is frustrating.  when Tri-ang launched 3mm/ft TT in 1957 the major retailers were announcing that they had stock within a month or so.

I've just watched Simon Kohler's interview on TT Talk and, for me, his most telling remark was that one reason for going for 120th scale was because they are now global. Whether that implies that they will be rolling it out with their Jouef and Rivarossi brands is something we'll have to wait to see.

I did though find this announcement from REE (who make very detailed fine-scale models of French locos and rolling stock in H0 and now H0m/H0e) on the Loco-Revue forum 

 

Dear customers, dear partners,
Our common passion for the train allows us to constantly explore new paths.
We know you are loyal to the brand and its values and we thank you for that.
In the coming weeks, we want to start a new adventure with you… More than a new adventure, a new experience! An experience that will strengthen our ties and highlight our beautiful community of enlightened amateurs. So say goodbye to preconceived ideas and flat launches and get ready!
We are very soon going to revolutionize the way you design the train.
The REE team

(Google translation of the French text)

This is being interpreted as meaning that they may also be about to get into TT. That would be a major development as  TT has never had any significant following in France. 

 

[Mike Harvey]

2 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

Looking at that picture sent me off to look up the chassis list for the Bedford OB published by the PSV Circle.  Checking some thirteen thousand entries for registration and first owner British Railways didn't buy a single one of these new- though it had a pair of Bedford OLAZ with BUS bodies by Allweather.   Not having found a photo of a real one in BR livery- is it a ficticious livery, a preserved one in a "wouldn't that be nice" livery or did BR buy some Bedford Vistas secondhand?

 

Les

 

BR operated at least two Bedford OBs with Duple Vista bodies. The one modelled fleet number 1203W  HWO 881  and fleet number 1229W FWO615. Both were acquired second hand. There is a photo of 1229W in the book “The Bedford OB and OWB” by John Woodham. Details of the original owner can be found by using the Search tab on this site:-

 

https://www.buslistsontheweb.co.uk/

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

22 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

snipped

 

As I see it, Hornby seems to be attempting to circumvent their declining competitiveness in OO. Unless they can reverse that, it might eventually follow them wherever they go, however virgin the territory. 

 

John   

Not so much about their competitiveness in 00 (although that obviously matters in some respects) but I suspect more about the slice of the total market cake which they are getting in terms of spending.   Hence going for a different scale which is an open goal and is an area where they can - at least for now - very attractively price their new range and by direct selling can also offer club member customers a discount.  Doing that will attract money that might otherwise have been spent on another scale/gauge combination plus, very ambitiously, hoping to open up a new market and then dominate it

 

It could work provided the market responds - which is something of a gamble of course - and if those who go into teh scale concentrate their model railway spending on it (where lack of competition in the early stages will mean the spend goes to Hornby).  The big question for Hornby - especially having sunk a lot of money into the range - is whether or not its implied attractiveness will work and not only take spend from 00 etc but also bring in new spend both of which should increase the portion of the total cake which goes to them.

[Dunsignalling]

17 minutes ago, Mike Harvey said:

BR operated at least two Bedford OBs with Duple Vista bodies. The one modelled fleet number 1203W  HWO 881  and fleet number 1229W FWO615. Both were acquired second hand. There is a photo of 1229W in the book “The Bedford OB and OWB” by John Woodham. Details of the original owner can be found by using the Search tab on this site:-

 

https://www.buslistsontheweb.co.uk/

 

 

 

Both of which are represented in my collection of EFE models. 

 

John

[Allegheny1600]

19 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

feel that one reason for Hornby taking this course, is simply that the OO scene is getting too hot for them.

I thoroughly disagree on this point!

Just look at the new Hornby 9F in 00 - in real life, it’s quite remarkable! I had a good look at one in my LHS last week and it’s heavy and powerful, looks the part and will surely pull the house down. It’s virtually as good as a Trix H0 loco but at half the price.

Apparently, they are selling well too.

All this is to say that Hornby have little to fear in 00.

[spamcan61]

3 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

I thoroughly disagree on this point!

Just look at the new Hornby 9F in 00 - in real life, it’s quite remarkable! I had a good look at one in my LHS last week and it’s heavy and powerful, looks the part and will surely pull the house down. It’s virtually as good as a Trix H0 loco but at half the price.

Apparently, they are selling well too.

All this is to say that Hornby have little to fear in 00.

No doubt Hornby can make some seriously nice models when they try; however there is far more competition, especially at the 'HiFi' end of the range, than there used to be. Presumably (?) this is where they expect to make the biggest return on investment - compared with 60 quid sets in Argos or whatever. So not too surprising they decided to try something new where there is to all intents and purposes no competition, even if the actual market size is as yet unknown, and they must've staked a big chunk of money on it.

[Dunsignalling]

34 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

I thoroughly disagree on this point!

Just look at the new Hornby 9F in 00 - in real life, it’s quite remarkable! I had a good look at one in my LHS last week and it’s heavy and powerful, looks the part and will surely pull the house down. It’s virtually as good as a Trix H0 loco but at half the price.

Apparently, they are selling well too.

All this is to say that Hornby have little to fear in 00.

I agree that the Hornby 9F is a stunner, but the problem for Hornby is that the best of the newcomers could probably, if they so wished, produce and sell something comparable for fifty quid less. They are not going to do this with a 9F, but they have other locos in the pipeline that Hornby will be able to match on quality or price, but not both. 

 

That's may not be too much of an issue right now, but it's a situation that won't go away.

 

Quite simply, Hornby's newer competitors have set their businesses up in accordance with modern practice, which makes it hard for Hornby to match them on value. Whether Hornby can (or even considers it necessary) to rearrange theirs to achieve a more competitive match remains to be seen.

 

John

 

PS. I have three Bachmann 9F's that do all I need and look perfectly good running on layouts. If I wanted something to look at from six inches away, I'd buy a new Hornby one. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

9 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I agree that the Hornby 9F is a stunner, but the problem for Hornby is that the best of the newcomers could, if they so wished, produce and sell something comparable for fifty quid less. They are not going to do this with a 9F, but they have other locos in the pipeline that Hornby will be able to match on quality or price, but not both. 

 

That's may not be too much of an issue right now, but it's a situation that won't go away.

 

Quite simply, Hornby's newer competitors have set their businesses up in accordance with modern practice, which makes it hard for Hornby to match them on value. Whether Hornby can (or even considers it necessary) to rearrange theirs to achieve a more competitive match remains to be seen.

 

John

 

PS. I have three Bachmann 9F's that do all I need and look perfectly good running on layouts. If I wanted something to look at from six inches away, I'd buy a new Hornby one. 

Don't necessarily confuse retail price with cost of manufacture in all this.  I suspect that Hornby pay about the same, or possibly less, for models of equal detail level etc as other 'manufacturers' are paying.  But their organisation costs more to run because they have more people on the payroll and, far more importantly, they need a particular (high) level of profit because of their financial state and the need to achieve and maintain a certain level of profitability.  

 

In addition the retail price is as much fixed by charging what they think the market will bear as it is by other factors.  Just look at the considerably lower prices they are offering with TT120 where - according to one industry source on RMweb - the manufacturing cost is c.85% of the manufacturing cost for 00 although there would also be reduction in transport cost (if it could be practically achieved by getting more items onto the same size pallet).   Simple conclusion I think is that if TT120 is being priced  at a gross profit then 00 is being priced at a higher rate of gross profit.

[Dunsignalling]

37 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Don't necessarily confuse retail price with cost of manufacture in all this.  I suspect that Hornby pay about the same, or possibly less, for models of equal detail level etc as other 'manufacturers' are paying.  But their organisation costs more to run because they have more people on the payroll and, far more importantly, they need a particular (high) level of profit because of their financial state and the need to achieve and maintain a certain level of profitability.  

 

In addition the retail price is as much fixed by charging what they think the market will bear as it is by other factors.  Just look at the considerably lower prices they are offering with TT120 where - according to one industry source on RMweb - the manufacturing cost is c.85% of the manufacturing cost for 00 although there would also be reduction in transport cost (if it could be practically achieved by getting more items onto the same size pallet).   Simple conclusion I think is that if TT120 is being priced  at a gross profit then 00 is being priced at a higher rate of gross profit.

Though I'd suggest the competitive advantage held by the leaner newcomers kicks in before anything gets as far as the manufacturing stage.

 

The problem for Hornby will become evident when (as it surely will) the next unavoidable duplication crops up. Previously, Hornby has been able to speed up their release to get theirs out before or alongside its rival. However, that inevitably creates delay for other items under development. If an "equal" competing product can be sold significantly below the price level that generates Hornby's required margin, something will have to give. With the number of players now active in OO there is an increased danger of two duplications occurring simultaneously or in quick succession, which might make for some very tricky choices at Margate.  

 

The beauty of launching TT:120 on direct selling is not only the price/profit calculation, but that full-RRP direct sales volumes won't be impacted by retailer discounting. If TT:120 does especially well, I'd expect to see an acceleration of Hornby's transfer of the OO range to direct sales, and possibly a gradual transfer of resources away from OO, depending on how the figures compare.

 

As with every other aspect of life at present, though, nothing is certain. The take-up of TT:120, whether strong or weak, will inevitably impact Hornby's other activities. 

 

John

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[whart57]

The last few weeks I have been getting Rapido adverts in my feed for their Wisbech and Upwell offerings. Lovely if you are into East Anglian tramways but seriously, how many will they sell? I would suggest that the difference between Hornby and the "leaner" entrants is that the latter can make a living from relatively short runs. The problem in 00 is that all the guaranteed hits have been done. 

[AY Mod]

21 minutes ago, whart57 said:

how many will they sell?

 

Sufficient.

[Dunsignalling]

23 minutes ago, whart57 said:

The last few weeks I have been getting Rapido adverts in my feed for their Wisbech and Upwell offerings. Lovely if you are into East Anglian tramways but seriously, how many will they sell? I would suggest that the difference between Hornby and the "leaner" entrants is that the latter can make a living from relatively short runs. The problem in 00 is that all the guaranteed hits have been done. 

Another problem is that some of the "guaranteed hits" have been done to death. By my reckoning, there must already be enough Hornby Flying Scotsmen kicking around for every family in the country to have at least two!

 

The tramway coach is a (prototypical) spin-off from the Titfield Thunderbolt set, so probably not that short a run.  Rapido will probably clear their costs on the sets, and the "real" ones will be the cherry on top. 

 

I'm thinking of having at least one for a freelance light railway layout idea that's floating around in my head.

 

John

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Ravenser]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Don't necessarily confuse retail price with cost of manufacture in all this.  I suspect that Hornby pay about the same, or possibly less, for models of equal detail level etc as other 'manufacturers' are paying.  But their organisation costs more to run because they have more people on the payroll and, far more importantly, they need a particular (high) level of profit because of their financial state and the need to achieve and maintain a certain level of profitability.  

 

In addition the retail price is as much fixed by charging what they think the market will bear as it is by other factors.  Just look at the considerably lower prices they are offering with TT120 where - according to one industry source on RMweb - the manufacturing cost is c.85% of the manufacturing cost for 00 although there would also be reduction in transport cost (if it could be practically achieved by getting more items onto the same size pallet).   Simple conclusion I think is that if TT120 is being priced  at a gross profit then 00 is being priced at a higher rate of gross profit.

 

 

However the true comparision would be Hornby's wholesale price for OO versus their website retail price for TT-120. I would not be surprised to find that the gross profit to Hornby on TT-120 is higher than that on OO , simp;ly because the retailer is not taking a slice of the price.

 

This is why "the new boys" are able to undercut Hornby - the majority of their sales are direct, so they don't have to allow a slice of the retail price for the shops. Added to which , most of the run is sold on pre-order, so the commercial risk is limited. If they can cover the cost of the project from pre-orders, then the last 10-20% of the run that they sell on to  shops is pure profit and they can discount it deeply

 

I would not be surprised to learn that Hornby's actual revenue on a model is less than that of the new boys , even though the retail price to the end user is higher

 

That is their big problem.

 

At best , the "new boys"  work with a small subset of model shops. If sales move from Hornby to the "new boys" a substantial part of the revenue moves away from model shops

 

To paraphrase an old saw about photo processing , you can have it any two of cheap, good, and through your local model shop on terms favourable to the owner 

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Another problem is that some of the "guaranteed hits" have been done to death. By my reckoning, there must already be enough Hornby Flying Scotsmen kicking around for every family in the country to have at least two!

 

If there isn't a large gyre of the things clogging up one of the world's oceans, then the only possible reason is that some people are eating them and it can't be healthy.  Probably for the best that Hornby are reducing the portion size with their new range.

[jjb1970]

The missing link in a lot of discussions about price is market size. The reason Kato and Tomix churn out a vast number of models produced to extremely high standards at prices which make UK and European N gauge models look very expensive is that the size of the Japanese market for N gauge model trains is huge. Kato and Tomix work in tens of thousands for production, most of the tooling is used multiple times and costs for that tooling and associated R&D are amortized over production that companies in other model railway markets dream of.

I have to say, I am speaking as an enthusiast of Japanese model trains here and so maybe very biased but given that Hornby have an extremely rare opportunity to enter a market with pretty much a blank sheet of what to do I think they could do a lot worse than study Kato and Tomix. Japanese companies approach things significantly differently to the rest of the world and their approach basically starts with what might be derided as the toy segment and works up to the hifi enthusiast segment with no hard separation between them. They both sell train sets with are a gateway into the hobby and designed to be expandable in a way which is very logical and sensible. For example, buy a start set with a three car JR East E5 hayabusa shinkansen and Kato and Tomix offer a book set extension with foam cut outs to make that start set a six-car set with a lovely book set storage case and with further bookset expansion packs to make a full length train. The unitrack concept may not be taken seriously by a lot of RMWeb people but both Kato and Tomix offer a myriad range of expansion packs to build onto the basic starter ovals with powered points and exotic track plan ideas in a very easy and logical way. Importantly, they make no distinction between those who put something together on a bedroom floor to take down again later and the serious layout builder. The blending of what we might call the railroad or trainset ranges with full fat hifi models is superbly done and really works. My advice to Hornby (and actually a lot of others) would be to swallow price, ignore 'not invented here syndrome' and study what the Japanese manufacturers do. Their approach is different but the fact the hobby is so huge in Japan indicates they're doing something right.

[Les1952]

A couple of points that seem to be getting lost.

 

I've ordered the starter set with the A4, for less than I would pay for a Bachmann or Hornby medium-sized tank engine in OO or N.

 

Most new houses are small- they take interior doors off show homes so you are given the impression you can get your furniture inside the rooms...  That Hornby starter set will turn happily on a baseboard 2 feet 9 inches wide- the same I used for Hawthorn Dene and Croft Spa in N.  That makes TT120 a lot more suitable for modern houses and flats, where a 3 foot wide baseboard for a roundy-roundy will be difficult to store and a 4 foot for OO will be close to impossible.

 

I would welcome a bit less detail- I'm fed up of bits that drop off randomly (going round the club layout to find the bogie chains from the Accurascale Deltic was no joke and a small boy saying "Is the buffer beam supposed to come off that loco?"- a Heljan - in the middle of a show was no fun either).  I got out of US N-scale when locos began to appear with handrails so fragile they were vulnerable as soon as the packing behind them was removed- no good for exhibiting.  I glue pieces back onto locos after every show with Croft Spa and NO PLACE- assuming I can find the bits when they do drop off.   

 

I accept that most of the exhorbitantly priced recent locos have sold out- but nowhere near as many of them have been made as were produced even 20 years ago- this applied to OO and N. Where are the production numbers we used to see?  In N gauge Dapol made a total of 2400 B1s (300 each of 8 identities).  Is OO now down to those numbers?

 

My last two locos for Bregenbach were both cheaper than a similar loco would be for Croft Spa- sound fitted diesels from Piko and Minitrix.  If TT120 remains cheaper than OO and N then it has a future, especially as we are all going to be much more cash strapped for the next 5 years or so it seems.

 

Sensibly priced TT120 wins on price, size and robustness.  It needs sensible marketing to succeed.

 

Just a few thoughts

Les

 

 

[sleepyrider]

On 26/10/2022 at 15:41, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Has anyone received their (free) TT-members pack yet?

Mine just dropped through the letterbox

[jjb1970]

I do have some sympathy for manufacturers as feedback seems to be all over the place on level of detail. When a company goes all out for detail people complain about bits dropping off and fragility, when a company dials it down and tries to go for a balance between reasonable detail while being robust enough for play value people complain. A few years ago we had the Hornby design clever debacle, my view at the time and today is the problem with design clever was rubbish execution on some of the models but that if well executed it was a perfectly sensible idea. To come back to Japanese N gauge again, both Kato and Tomix have been very good at working to a design clever type philosophy, with a possible difference being that they both do very high quality mechanisms. Details are a balance between detail and being robust but they seem pretty expert at doing it very well. And they like trick features like removeable nose cones with sharfenberg couplings behind etc.

[Flying Pig]

30 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I do have some sympathy for manufacturers as feedback seems to be all over the place on level of detail. When a company goes all out for detail people complain about bits dropping off and fragility, when a company dials it down and tries to go for a balance between reasonable detail while being robust enough for play value people complain. A few years ago we had the Hornby design clever debacle, my view at the time and today is the problem with design clever was rubbish execution on some of the models but that if well executed it was a perfectly sensible idea. To come back to Japanese N gauge again, both Kato and Tomix have been very good at working to a design clever type philosophy, with a possible difference being that they both do very high quality mechanisms. Details are a balance between detail and being robust but they seem pretty expert at doing it very well. And they like trick features like removeable nose cones with sharfenberg couplings behind etc.

 

I pointed out earlier in (probably) this thread that the engineering sample of the Hornby 08 in TT clearly has less applied detail than the Farish equivalent in N (and imo this is no bad thing) and that one of the (not accidental) benefits of the smaller scale for Hornby may be that a design clever approach is more acceptable, allowing them to control production costs in a way that the superdetail market in 00 won't accept.  They also avoid a detail arms race while they have the scale to themselves.

 

 

 

[Jeff Smith]

Just got an email from Hornby now that I joined the TT:120 club, however although it is not obvious until you look more c!osely, it is advertising OO products.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Jeff Smith

[jonnyuk]

Saw the range today at Gaydon. I have to say I was on the fence, looked interesting and could see the appeal but part of me thought, nope.

however seeing the range in person I’m sold, the loco’s are the perfect blend between detail and robustness, I picked them up and not once felt something would drop off, but at the same time enough separately fitted detail to look good.

I’ve had n scale before and to be honest it just p*ssed me off with how difficult it was to put stuff on the rails, to hook rolling stock together etc, the slightly larger scale really appeals to me.

with everything they have for launch would suit me, new era and location to model. Highlight for me though as to be the 08, stunning little loco.

 

simon did say (and he said it many times), this is not replace OO, never will and it’s not the intention, he kept going back to size constraints of OO in the modern world, uni students, folk in flats etc.

 

He did also the sets might be after Xmas now, they spotted a mistake on the Loco which they fixed but they missed the Christmas boat by a week, they are trying to fly them over.

also the OO hst pullmans are on the boat and be here for Xmas (makes me a happy bunny).

the smoke generating loco’s will be here in may.

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by jonnyuk
spelling

[jonhall]

Don't those nose end ladders look great on the 08 

 

details, details, details

 

 

[newbryford]

3 minutes ago, jonhall said:

Don't those nose end ladders look great on the 08 

 

details, details, details

 

 

 

Who cares, who cares, who cares?

 

It's a diesel and it's Hornby.

[irishmail]

34 minutes ago, jonnyuk said:

Saw the range today at Gaydon. I have to say I was on the fence, looked interesting and could see the appeal but part of me thought, nope.

however seeing the range in person I’m sold, the loco’s are the perfect blend between detail and robustness, I picked them up and not once felt something would drop off, but at the same time enough separately fitted detail to look good.

I’ve had n scale before and to be honest it just p*ssed me off with how difficult it was to put stuff on the rails, to hook rolling stock together etc, the slightly larger scale really appeals to me.

with everything they have for launch would suit me, new era and location to model. Highlight for me though as to be the 08, stunning little loco.

 

simon did say (and he said it many times), this is not replace OO, never will and it’s not the intention, he kept going back to size constraints of OO in the modern world, uni students, folk in flats etc.

 

He did also the sets might be after Xmas now, they spotted a mistake on the Loco which they fixed but they missed the Christmas boat by a week, they are trying to fly them over.

also the OO hst pullmans are on the boat and be here for Xmas (makes me a happy bunny).

the smoke generating loco’s will be here in may.

 

It looks like that some of the coaches have bogie fitted couplings rather than body mounted KK couplings. Did Simon mention anything about  how the couplings are being fitted to the coaches, as when I emailed Hornby a couple of weeks ago I was told that they would be body mounted KK couplings. 

Thanks for sharing the pics.

Regards,   John

[Jeff Smith]

Great photos, not sure about the blue wheels on 2550 but the 08 coupling rods look great!