Hornby announce TT:120

[JohnR]

1 hour ago, Robin Brasher said:

Thank you for the update. Most of the people in the model railway clubs I belong to are over 65 years old yet 20% of these may not have access to the internet. I think lots of these people are interested in Hornby TT 120. One of these has asked me to order some locomotives on his behalf. 

 

And those people are not the target market. Listen to what Simon Kohler says about where Hornby are pitching this. Sure, they're not going to complain when your older, established modellers buy some TT stuff for "nostalgia" reasons (or indeed any other reason). But they are not who this is aimed at. So the internet only sale route is not a problem to reaching the people they are targeting. 

Edited November 1, 2022 by JohnR

[Hroth]

19 minutes ago, Paul Cram said:

What about Suttons Locomotive works?

 

Who cover OO, EM and P4 wheelsets to order for their class 24/25 diesels.  I wonder what the proportions of wheelsets provided are!

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Hroth

[Chris116]

2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Oh give me strength, we haven't the first products yet. Just no 

Does the mean my saying earlier that I would like them to produce all of the TT3 range of the 50s and 60s puts me on the naughty step?

[gc4946]

8 hours ago, peak experience said:

May as well start my wish list. Dear Hornby, I'd very much an EM2/77/NS1500 class loco for Christmas. With a UK and Dutch market, you know it makes sense. 

 

And the original EM1 Tommy which ran in the Netherlands between 1947-1952, and its later British companions. I found out Arnold produces epoch II and III train ferry wagons as well. No worries about scale incompability, unlike N or OO/HO any longer!

[gc4946]

If Hornby under its own brand name in the UK doesn't want to take the lead for some models, Arnold could introduce them instead.

I'm thinking of S160 2-8-0, WD 2-8-0 and 2-10-0, many of which spent time in Europe.

Also other train ferry stock such as Night Ferry sleeping cars plus wagons.

 

A Night Ferry sleeping car might not be viable in OO however many people request it because of its limited market, but release one in TT, it's much more feasible financially from their point of view.

 

PS - a few J94s served on the continent so could be rebadged as an Arnold model

Edited November 1, 2022 by gc4946
added J94 info

[Hobby]

11 minutes ago, gc4946 said:

a few J94s served on the continent so could be rebadged as an Arnold model

 

Yes, in amongst the  near 100 pages I'm sure they were mentioned, in amongst plenty of other locos which ran on British lines as well as on the Continent such as USA tanks, 8fs, etc., not to mention more recently many diesels and electrics. Plenty of crossovers which can be sold by Hornby/Arnold if they wish! The more we look at it the more sense one scale covers all makes.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Hobby

[jjb1970]

I think Hornby are not unusual in deciding that the great bulk of potential customers are connected and happy to shop on-line. Even if they distributed their TT range via shops I am guessing most sales would be online via retailer websites. More and more businesses and organizations are adopting a position that a high enough percentage of their market is online to accept losing a bit of outreach for those not connected. 

[andythenorth]

For those who cannot resist wish-listing* 🙃

 

Wishlist on Hornby forums: https://uk.Hornby.com/community/forum/what-do-people-hope-to-see-in-the-range-329864?ccm_paging_p=5#end-of-replies

 

Existing TT:120 wishlist thread in rmweb:

 

* happens to many of us, no shame in it, just try not to let it happen too often eh? 😛

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by andythenorth

[AY Mod]

3 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Oh give me strength, we haven't the first products yet. Just no 

 

[andythenorth]

14 minutes ago, thetrains said:

I don't know where Govt. gets its stats from as per earlier post I now can't find.

Quality and methodology is published transparently here https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/householdcharacteristics/homeinternetandsocialmediausage/methodologies/internetaccesshouseholdsandindividualsqmi

 

There's always a risk that the ONS statisticians don't know what they don't know, but they really do try very hard to get this data right.  Lives depend on some of the information they collect. ONS don't sit in Newport making the figures up to make nice government headlines for some dubious politicians 🙂  They do identify that the internet access survey is a small sample size, which introduces a little more uncertainty about the results.

 

There's not much mileage in 'but everyone I know' though :🙂 I could equally say that every elderly relative in my family has internet access, usually via a tablet or smartphone.  But it doesn't prove anything useful about the country 😉

 

Hopefully, for those older folks who want some TT:120, but can't order online for themselves, kind folk like you can order on their behalf. 🙂

Edited November 1, 2022 by andythenorth

[Padishar Creel]

6 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

 

Imagine arriving in Hell, to find out that you are a to be a moderator of a forum where every thread comprises nothing but wishlists

 

😱😱😱

 

es grüßt

pc 

[Ravenser]

23 minutes ago, gc4946 said:

If Hornby under its own brand name in the UK doesn't want to take the lead for some models, Arnold could introduce them instead.

I'm thinking of S160 2-8-0, WD 2-8-0 and 2-10-0, many of which spent time in Europe.

Also other train ferry stock such as Night Ferry sleeping cars plus wagons.

 

A Night Ferry sleeping car might not be viable in OO however many people request it because of its limited market, but release one in TT, it's much more feasible financially from their point of view.

 

PS - a few J94s served on the continent so could be rebadged as an Arnold model

 

There is a seperate thread for this here: TT-120 wishlist

 

 

[gc4946]

I'm curious what advertising Hornby plans later this year on non-model railway media.

However I hope the train sets arrive before Xmas, or even by "Black Friday" to capture maximum online sales and that Hornby is prepared for a deluge of customers requiring help and assistance.

[AY Mod]

2 minutes ago, gc4946 said:

However I hope the train sets arrive before Xmas, or even by "Black Friday"

 

It's been previously said that the sets won't be here for Xmas unless they airfreight some over.

[Pacific231G]

10 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

Correct me if I'm wrong , but isn;t the little Kof shunter they do a West German loco?

 

To the best of my knowledge the Arnold range is purely Hornby tooling - Rekoboy commented on its development in a post about 30 or 40 pages back

It's a Kof II which was a long lived DRG type introduced from 1932 and produced into the 1950s including for DB . Arnold offer it in DB (red), DR Ep III (black) and DR Ep IV (orange). There's also an Ep V  DBAG  brakevan in the range.

 

What I don't understand is why, if this range is all new tooling by Hornby, is it so clearly based on E. German DR stock when the DDR disappeared thirty two years ago. There can't be that much nostalgia in Germany for the Stasi and the  "Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart"  so it does suggest that the tooling patterns at least came from a DDR source even though the Arnold range was introduced after Hornby's purchase of the brand in 2014 .  

Edited November 1, 2022 by Pacific231G

[gc4946]

9 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

It's been previously said that the sets won't be here for Xmas unless they airfreight some over.

Thanks for clarification, apologies for repeating some points,  I haven't read all the 90 plus pages on this topic yet

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

 

 

You know its like herding cats in these parts....

 

[AY Mod]

Just now, Hroth said:

You know its like herding cats in these parts....

 

Deaf cats who don't read!

[Ravenser]

It is becomng clear that TT-120 may become the most divisive and bitterly opposed development in the hobby since P4 half a century ago, although the circumstances are rather different.

 

However since the announcement we've seen a steady trickle of people declaring they are attracted by the possibilities of TT-120, and want to try it out. In most cases they have either ordered from Hornby or say they are going to. The reasons given are that they haven't got the space to do anything meaningful in OO, and can't get on with N , which is just too small for them. Which is exactly what I would expect to hear.

 

Despite the comments that the main target market is elsewhere, TT-120 is drawing noticeable  support from within the existing modelling community . There seems to have been plenty of interest at KX and they filled the display room at Gaydon despute the access restriction. I do now think this project is at least going to leave the runway

 

N gauge has an abnormally low market share in Britain , despite our chronic and severe housing shortages. So potentially there's a reasonable slice of the hobby for whom neither OO nor N really works - and that's the target market. Some of them aren't in the hobby because the existing gauges don't work for them , some are on the margins of the hobby. We are yet to see if TT-120 will actually work for them, but they'll find out in the near future . (Somehow , every time I see 4mm/ TT-120 / N comparison I feel that N has just slipped over a line where things slide out of focus) . If these people get seriously involved the total market for the hobby grows

 

By definition those committed to N gauge won't change - N works for them. Those trying N as a last resort might. I've seen a few comments of the "Haven't really got space for OO. Tried N but just couldn't get on with it" form: that's the target group here

 

So - in the short term this looks like a British equivalent of Marklin's Z gauge - a Marklin speciality , to be different , that hasn't really challenged N gauge but has bobbed along for decades

 

But - the fact TT is a well-established scale on the Continent changes the equation

 

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Thanks you caught me mid update… Ive updated to reflect March 1974, but additionally this picture from 26th June 1975 where it clearly did not have ladders…and an additional OHLE flash by the front shunters steps, not on the EP.

 

flickr url, not mine.

 

(There is a picture of it at Radyr in 1969 in Green with ladders, which is quite a nice pleasing picture to see, but not relevent as it was pre-Tops and Green).

(Flickr url not mine)

it does bring one interesting point though, whilst the blue EP has 5 lamp irons on the front, (Ive only ever seen 2 in blue), but if you note the image above, the 3 lamp irons are GWR style.. makes sense as its a WR 08, but ive never considered that before.

 

I suspect for most people the blue 08 “will do”.., today, though that maybe less acceptable in the future. However the GBRF and DB ones may really need a bit more convincing. Contemporary image modellers tend to go for accurate details, especially when other scales are ever increasing offering this level of accuracy.

One important thing about the removal of ladders on 350s (Class 08 to younger readers) is that a lot of it must have been done at depot level because Classified works visits were so rare.  One of ours at Radyr in 1973 was called in for main works  attention (technically classified as an Exam but actually a major overhaul) and talking to one of the Technical Assistants at Canton about it he said that it was its first works visit since it had been built.  So dates of ladder removal would have been subject to. 'a bit of flexibility'.

[Hobby]

41 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

What I don't understand is why, if this range is all new tooling by Hornby, is it so clearly based on E. German DR stock when the DDR disappeared thirty two years ago. There can't be that much nostalgia in Germany for the Stasi and the  "Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart"  so it does suggest that the tooling patterns at least came from a DDR source even though the Arnold range was introduced after Hornby's purchase of the brand in 2014 .  

 

I doubt there's much nostalgia for the Stasi(!!), but there is a lot for the railways in those times, most German NG stock is based on the old East German lines mainly because they survived. Also TT is big in East Germany and Eastern Europe (second to H0) hence the models will reflect that interest.

[Hobby]

5 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

The reasons given are that they haven't got the space to do anything meaningful in OO, and can't get on with N , which is just too small for them. Which is exactly what I would expect to hear.

 

Nope, and nope! I just prefer the scale, and feel it's better than 00 or N! I'm sure I'm not alone in that as several others have expressed similar views.

 

I sincerely hope that it doesn't cause the trouble you seem to think it is doing, what i see is a small number of people for reasons of their own (dislike of Hornby, the scale, they way it's being marketed, the list is endless!) knocking it and those views being blown out of all proportion, though I suppose if we'd had social media back then we'd have seen the same about P4, TT3, N and even 00 far enough back! I'd rather hoped that this thread would have been more constructive, though of late it's is becoming that as the furore dies down!

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

Thank you for the information about the lack of lights in the Pullman cars in the Scotsman set. 

 

I wonder if it has occurred to Hornby that some modellers are not on the internet. As the TT 120 range is only available direct from its website these modellers will not be able to buy any Hornby TT 120 models. This will mean that Hornby will be missing out on nostalgia sales possibly mainly for people in the over 70s age group who are still active modellers.

I wonder just what percentage of people in their 70s aren't on the 'net in one way or another. (i.e. including the fancier type of mobile devices that receive pictures and adverts)?   Don't forget that we are a generation which was very much in the front line of seeing things like the internet introduced into our daily working lives when we were in our 40s and 50s. True we didn't grow up with it as many younger people have but many of us got involved with it in order to do our jobs and then created or became involved in it in our leisure time and everyday lives.

 

I can think of very few people I know in their '70s who aren't using the 'net in one way or another.

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

Yes, in amongst the  near 100 pages I'm sure they were mentioned, in amongst plenty of other locos which ran on British lines as well as on the Continent such as USA tanks, 8fs, etc., not to mention more recently many diesels and electrics. Plenty of crossovers which can be sold by Hornby/Arnold if they wish! The more we look at it the more sense one scale covers all makes.

J94s are also pretty versatile even within the UK market - the industrial variants were used by the NCB and other industrial users, some in plain black or green and others in more colourful liveries.

 

48 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

However since the announcement we've seen a steady trickle of people declaring they are attracted by the possibilities of TT-120, and want to try it out. In most cases they have either ordered from Hornby or say they are going to. The reasons given are that they haven't got the space to do anything meaningful in OO, and can't get on with N , which is just too small for them. Which is exactly what I would expect to hear.

In my case, when I started in railway modelling my main interest was and is in narrow gauge, but I also like standard gauge industrial and light railways. I was initially going to build a standard gauge light railway in 00, but this clearly wouldn’t have fitted into the space I had available. Fortunately I then found an interesting and inspiring NG prototype that would fit the space, and have continued mainly with narrow gauge (because that’s what interests me, not for space-saving reasons). This is mostly in 009, as 016.5 (or anything on 16.5mm gauge track) would have similar limitations to those of 00 when working in small spaces. But if I wasn’t interested in NG then TT standard gauge would be a similarly good fit in terms of space, and I might still do a little bit in future, as I have a few ideas for standard gauge micro layouts that I might like to have a go at at some stage.

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

It is becomng clear that TT-120 may become the most divisive and bitterly opposed development in the hobby since P4 half a century ago, although the circumstances are rather different.

 

However since the announcement we've seen a steady trickle of people declaring they are attracted by the possibilities of TT-120, and want to try it out. In most cases they have either ordered from Hornby or say they are going to. The reasons given are that they haven't got the space to do anything meaningful in OO, and can't get on with N , which is just too small for them. Which is exactly what I would expect to hear.

 

Despite the comments that the main target market is elsewhere, TT-120 is drawing noticeable  support from within the existing modelling community . There seems to have been plenty of interest at KX and they filled the display room at Gaydon despute the access restriction. I do now think this project is at least going to leave the runway

 

N gauge has an abnormally low market share in Britain , despite our chronic and severe housing shortages. So potentially there's a reasonable slice of the hobby for whom neither OO nor N really works - and that's the target market. Some of them aren't in the hobby because the existing gauges don't work for them , some are on the margins of the hobby. We are yet to see if TT-120 will actually work for them, but they'll find out in the near future . (Somehow , every time I see 4mm/ TT-120 / N comparison I feel that N has just slipped over a line where things slide out of focus) . If these people get seriously involved the total market for the hobby grows

 

By definition those committed to N gauge won't change - N works for them. Those trying N as a last resort might. I've seen a few comments of the "Haven't really got space for OO. Tried N but just couldn't get on with it" form: that's the target group here

 

So - in the short term this looks like a British equivalent of Marklin's Z gauge - a Marklin speciality , to be different , that hasn't really challenged N gauge but has bobbed along for decades

 

But - the fact TT is a well-established scale on the Continent changes the equation

 

 

 

People are comparing this to other " left-field scale" ventures . Specifically I'm thinking about:

 

- Triang "Big-Big" in O ; Lima's 1970s O gauge range

- The short-lived flirtations with British outline HO by Lima , Fleischmann and Rivarossi in the late 70s

- Triang TT3 ( 3mm scale) 

- Lone Star OOO 

 

Barring TT3, all of these were small, just 1-2 locos and a couple of coaches and a couple of wagons.

 

TT3 lasted longest , but every single one  left behind a legacy modelling community (OK the existing Gauge O community snapped up Big -Big and Lima , but Gauge O was pretty tiny in the 1970s)

 

None of the British HO ranges were exactly the same scale as another, their different stock didn't go together in prototype terms - but the thing won't quite lie down and die completely

 

(In the case of Lone Star , N gauge happened second time around)

 

Given how much Hornby have announced, even if they were later to drop their British TT-120 range , enough will have been made for the legacy RTR to go far beyond anything above , except for TT-3.

 

However the fact that TT-120 is a significant commercial scale on the Continent makes a huge difference.

 

Once Triang stopped production there was no commercial supply of 3mm scale material, at all. Once Rokal folded in 1971-2 nobody was making 12mm gauge track or mechanisms outside the Soviet Bloc . And you couldn't buy goods from the Soviet Bloc online. In the Communist Bloc goods were rationed. Commercial supply was therefore nil...

 

British TT-120 will never face anything like that. 12mm gauge track and mechanisms will be readily available from the Continent. Peco track and probably the Hornby track will remain in production. The Hornby 66 should remain in production, at least off and on , for the Continental market. There is an existing eco-system of 1:120 material on the Continent 

 

At that point - and remember this is the "reasonable worst case scenario"  where bodies are piling up in the streets- TT-120 starts to look more like OO9 from 1970-2010 . Little or no RTR and not a model shop scale, but a community building quite a lot of models based on kits and commercial track and mechanisms. The rise of OO9 and the almost total eclipse of OOn3 shows how much of a difference a supply of  commercial track and mechanisms makes

 

TT-120 might do substantially better than that. It might well carve a niche for itself

 

There are certainly going to be some people in the hobby who want TT-120 to fail completely and ignominously as a scale, if only to teach Hornby and SK a very painful lesson. But I do think the genie is out of the bottle - this won't simply go away now

Edited November 1, 2022 by Ravenser