Hornby announce TT:120

[J-Lewis]

I could see Rapido dipping a toe into the market.  They’ve already teased the idea of doing a 3mm model a few years back, plus they helped promote the TT scale MTB SW1200 when that was released.

 

I’d wager we won’t need to wait five years to see another entrant into UK TT.  My bet would be two years at the outside, maybe even sooner.

[britishcolumbian]

I still have a feeling we may see something from MTB - something that could suit both the Continental and British market. Since it won't be a Class 66, maybe it'll be the first British electric in 1:120...

[woodenhead]

So I had a quick look at the Hornby stand yesterday at Warley and whilst I am not about to swap scales the first murmurings of a potential layout idea was displayed - so far to me the introductions have been around steam stuff but a Western Region model looks possible now, something around say Didcot - blue grey HST, class 50s with Mk1s and Mk2 aircons, class 08, MGR and bogie TEAs - all were on display yesterday.  Some bauxite vans plus a 47 and 37 is all you really need extra and they're all in the pipeline.

 

Like I say I am not jumping scales, but I can see there is enough to begin your journey now.

[dunnyrail]

There were also a couple of early Duchess locs as well as the LMS coaches. All look superb and I suspect we may be getting pre-ordered LMS coaches early next year if not before. I have some ordered in BR livery, though a Duchess is unlikely for my Wakefield Westgate layout as to the best of my knowledge the closest one ever got (in BR steam days) was on the HCRS special from Kings x to Doncaster Works. I was on that special and it did 112 coming down (on the up line) Stoke Bank though this is reputed by some. Certainly going like the proverbial rocket. 

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

bogie TEAs

 

Bogie TEA wagons? That would be something new (to me, at least) - or were they TTAs?

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Porfuera said:

 

Bogie TEA wagons? That would be something new (to me, at least) - or were they TTAs?

Big long tank on bogies

[J-Lewis]

The Duchess and Class 66 test shots were both in the TT display case at Warley today.  The 66 was assembled as Evening Star and looked fantastic, really superbly detailed.

 

I did grab some photos but didn’t focus properly due to the glass cabinet.

[Delta_Who]

On 24/11/2023 at 15:58, Ravenser said:

 

Well, I am pretty confident about the existing companies who won't get involved: Bachmann, Dapol and Accurascale

 

Heljan flirted with the idea. RevolutionBen's comments are very interesting. And there is the question of who was behind Gaugemaster's kite-flying about a TT:120 Class 66. I'm convinced that a Continental manufacturer with existing TT interests must have been behind that.,

 

So my speculation about further entrants into British outline TT:120 would be:

 

1. A Continental manufacturer with TT interests (Tillig, Roco, Piko or whoever) 

2. Heljan might decide to go for it after all

3. Revolution?

4. Rapido??

 

But I would be doubtful that we will see any model from anyone bar Hornby on sale in the next 5 years. Other players will want to be certain that there's a significant market long-term before investing in tooling

 

 

Even though TT:120 is not my scale currently (I have floated the idea a few times for a shelf layout)... the presence at Warley and GETS I think is irreversibly setting the scale's presence. Not only did PECO and Hornby have impressive displays, but so did other vendors and stalls. What's more, is that Hornby seems to be showing a certain pace to trying to convert their "staplehold" locomotives. 

 

I do think Heljan may be looking at this, and trying to figure out what Diesel/Electric locos they could snipe off Hornby before they get bored. Incidently, there is a market gap for multiple units in TT, so potentially something for Revolution to get involved.

[MartinRS]

53 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

Incidentally, there is a market gap for multiple units in TT, so potentially something for Revolution to get involved.

Something that appeared in BR green livery which had a long service life to maximize its appeal would be nice. 

[Ravenser]

8 hours ago, woodenhead said:

So I had a quick look at the Hornby stand yesterday at Warley and whilst I am not about to swap scales the first murmurings of a potential layout idea was displayed - so far to me the introductions have been around steam stuff but a Western Region model looks possible now, something around say Didcot - blue grey HST, class 50s with Mk1s and Mk2 aircons, class 08, MGR and bogie TEAs - all were on display yesterday.  Some bauxite vans plus a 47 and 37 is all you really need extra and they're all in the pipeline.

 

Like I say I am not jumping scales, but I can see there is enough to begin your journey now.

 

Several people have done a Hymek from a Lincoln Locos body. If a way to motorise a Western from a LL body can be found then a mid 70s WR main line looks pretty possible

 

The key package I think will be available once the 66 is out - a 66 + an 08 is what you need for most modern freight operations.The labels on the stand said Summer 2024 for the 66, Spring 2024 for the TTAs and Summer 2024 for the HAAs.

 

Obviously wagons then become an issue - TTA and HAA are not perfect for the 21st century. But wagons are territory where 3D printing becomes a serious possibility, even ahead of kits. What could be rescaled from existing 3D prints for N , 3mm and even 4mm is an interesting question. It won't be shake-the-box modelling, but that itself will appeal to some. A TEA would be very useful , wherever it comes from

 

I notice that Hornby are now displaying both Toad B (wooden ducket) and Toad E (steel ducket) brake vans.

 

By next summer things should have moved on substantially. If the market absorbs these new models and they keep flying out of the warehouse this scale could start to take wings

 

Peco had some of their PO minerals running round a display layout behind an 08. The scenic work and structures were very crisp and high quality

[GenericRMWebUsername]

7 hours ago, MartinRS said:

Something that appeared in BR green livery which had a long service life to maximize its appeal would be nice. 

If someone came out with a Class 101, I know I would buy it. Maybe multiple! 

 

The only piece of advice I would give to a potential TT120 loco manufacturer is to consider the HM7000 decoder. They are on the larger side and they won't fit in all locomotives. This is important, because many of the Hornby TT120 buyers have adopted this system. HM7000 presents an affordable way into the world of DCC, since no base station or anything is needed. If a manufacturer were to launch a TT120 loco, they should absolutely make sure that the locomotive can fit the decoder and guarantee the loco will perform well. They could even have a recommended profile to get decent sound effects. If they don't, they will shrink their addressable market considerably. In a choice between a new loco and HM7000, there are a segment of people who would choose HM7000. Besides that, I'd be curious to see what a manufacturer would come up with! 

[smr248]

10 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

Several people have done a Hymek from a Lincoln Locos body. If a way to motorise a Western from a LL body can be found then a mid 70s WR main line looks pretty possible

 

The key package I think will be available once the 66 is out - a 66 + an 08 is what you need for most modern freight operations.The labels on the stand said Summer 2024 for the 66, Spring 2024 for the TTAs and Summer 2024 for the HAAs.

 

Obviously wagons then become an issue - TTA and HAA are not perfect for the 21st century. But wagons are territory where 3D printing becomes a serious possibility, even ahead of kits. What could be rescaled from existing 3D prints for N , 3mm and even 4mm is an interesting question. It won't be shake-the-box modelling, but that itself will appeal to some. A TEA would be very useful , wherever it comes from

 

I notice that Hornby are now displaying both Toad B (wooden ducket) and Toad E (steel ducket) brake vans.

 

By next summer things should have moved on substantially. If the market absorbs these new models and they keep flying out of the warehouse this scale could start to take wings

 

Peco had some of their PO minerals running round a display layout behind an 08. The scenic work and structures were very crisp and high quality

The over bridge, tunnel mouths and fences on the Peco layout are N scale (I asked).  Apparently they will be bringing out GWR fencing at some point.

[Hobby]

14 hours ago, MartinRS said:

Something that appeared in BR green livery which had a long service life to maximize its appeal would be nice. 

 

Such as an 08...

 

Once they'e issued the green version which should be out sometime next year...

[Les1952]

On 24/11/2023 at 09:54, ixionmodels said:

So here’s a fun speculation: which existing company do you think might be the next to join Hornby and Peco in RTR 2.5mm scale? (Spoiler alert: it’s not Ixion Models. 😄)

 

One thing you MIGHT see after I had a chat with Joel at Dapol this weekend is a sticker applied to packs of their Easi-shunt couplings or some marketing from them to point out they are suitable for TT:120.   Dapol were not aware that they fitted TT NEM pockets or that people like me were using them.  Indeed the prospect of selling something into a new market without spending heavily to develop the product seemed interesting to them.

 

Will it happen?  Time will tell.

 

Les

(who finds they work better in TT than in the N they were designed for due to TT kinematic springs being stronger and TT stock being heavier- just like Kadees work better on heavier US stock than on lighter British)

 

[J-Lewis]

A revolution DMU would be amazing.  There is a definite gap in the TT ‘branch line’ market at the moment.  Maybe we will see an announcement sometime time later next year?  

[MartinRS]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

 

Such as an 08...

 

Once they'e issued the green version which should be out sometime next year...

I was responding to a suggestion that that a DMU would be a nice addition to the TT:120 range, though it is interesting to note that Hornby's BR blue Class 08 stock level is now shown as being down to the 'Last Few'. It could be the low price which has resulted in the low number of units left for sale, in which case I would expect the two other liveried Class 08s to sell out. I bought the blue 08 earlier this year, though I really wanted a green or black liveried version. I suspect the relatively high sales volume of the blue 08 is caused by BR green era modelers compromising, and going for the nearest chronological era.

 

If another manufacturer does decide to produce a loco in TT:120 then a Class 20 could be an option. Serious modelers would buy them in pairs! (I do remember seeing short mixed freight train being operated out of Tinsley yard behind a single Class 20. I knew the regular driver of what he called 'the tripper', a fellow model railway enthusiast). The Class 20 appeared in many BR liveries as well as GBRf, HNRC, DRS, Hunslet Barclay, London Transport (new and retro) liveries. Some were bought for use on the CFD Autun-Avallon network which would make the model attractive to continental modellers. Industrial users include Hope Valley Cement Works and Corus. Australian kit bashers would also find the loco attractive as the MRWA G class is based on the Class 20.
 

[MartinRS]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

Such as an 08...

 

Once they'e issued the green version which should be out sometime next year...

Do we get ladders?

[J-Lewis]

5 minutes ago, MartinRS said:

Do we get ladders?

The original test shots had ladders, so yes.

[Hroth]

5 minutes ago, MartinRS said:

I bought the blue 08 earlier this year, though I really wanted a green or black liveried version. I suspect the relatively high sales volume of the blue 08 is caused by BR green era modelers compromising, and going for the nearest chronological era.

 

Very much my reasoning.

 

A green one would be nice, so would a transition era DMU in GREEN, to go with a 31 or a 37 also in GREEN!  🤪

 

[GenericRMWebUsername]

5 hours ago, MartinRS said:

If another manufacturer does decide to produce a loco in TT:120 then a Class 20 could be an option. Serious modelers would buy them in pairs! (I do remember seeing short mixed freight train being operated out of Tinsley yard behind a single Class 20. I knew the regular driver of what he called 'the tripper', a fellow model railway enthusiast). The Class 20 appeared in many BR liveries as well as GBRf, HNRC, DRS, Hunslet Barclay, London Transport (new and retro) liveries. Some were bought for use on the CFD Autun-Avallon network which would make the model attractive to continental modellers. Industrial users include Hope Valley Cement Works and Corus. Australian kit bashers would also find the loco attractive as the MRWA G class is based on the Class 20.

Spot on. I've thought that the Class 20 is one of the low-hanging fruit locos that should be snapped up. The fact that it worked overseas is one of its best selling points. Heljan would actually be a suitable manufacturer for this product. They could try their hand at TT120 after initially being driven off, and secure a significant locomotive before Hornby makes one. They also have the continental presence to sell European variants overseas.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Gaugemaster's TT Class 66 was going to be designed by Heljan. Gaugemaster's TT120 announcement and Heljan's TT120 announcement were timed nearly exactly the same. Gaugemaster is Heljan's distributer in the UK. From Heljan's website:

 

"Since March 2020, we have been working in close co-operation with Gaugemaster, our UK agent for trade sales, distribution and spares, but we also have excellent relationships with all the major UK model railway retailers. In recent years we have expanded our business into producing exclusive RTR models for major retailers and magazines."

 

Gaugemaster and Heljan seemed like they had significant TT120 plans that were scuttled by the huge Hornby opening salvo. Heljan could still try to secure key models. The Class 20, the Peaks, the Deltics, the Class 58 (which also saw use in Europe) along with other diesels are wide open. Well-made models crafted now could allow a firm like Heljan to own certain TT models for the next 10 to 20 years.  

Edited November 27, 2023 by GenericRMWebUsername

[natterjack]

47 minutes ago, GenericRMWebUsername said:

Gaugemaster and Heljan seemed like they had significant TT120 plans that were scuttled by the huge Hornby opening salvo

Stlll falling for that one? If the projected Heljan line up and preparation were to be believed they would have beaten Hornby to the market with their own products. Even  with the Hornby 2-3 year production plan fairly clear to see there is no mention of TT120 in the Heljan 2024 catalogue.

[adb968008]

Theres nearly 50:new toolings in the 00 queue waiting to come out of China..

 

why are people so convinced theres enough money, as well as factory space for an expanded TT range, when so much 00 cannot get out of the door with cash already committed  into what is a mature somewhat safe market.

 

I think TT is Hornbys baby for a while, given the commitment, and economic risk and interest rates for cash, let alone uncertainties of entering an unknown market and the delays of deliveries spanning multiple years that others may face trying to enter…

 

Only Hornby know the true market size, and they are hardly going to say its small, given the time and treasure expended to get this far.

 

Imagine commiting a good 6 figure sum (say your house)  into a “TT safe bet”, and find a 3-4 year wait to get the product and suddenly find the rug pulled by Hornby walking after 2…. Its far safer to commit to a 00 wagon, and wait and see for a while what happens in TT.  TT is a walk not a race, its still new.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by adb968008

[Hobby]

I think the point being made was that Heljan seemed to indicate with their announcements that they were much further down the line than "3 or 4 years away" and so cpuld have got in first.

 

Perhaps they weren't being as truthful as some gave them credit for...

[teletougos]

16 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Theres nearly 50:new toolings in the 00 queue waiting to come out of China..

 

why are people so convinced theres enough money, as well as factory space for an expanded TT range, when so much 00 cannot get out of the door with cash already committed  into what is a mature somewhat safe market.

 

I think TT is Hornbys baby for a while, given the commitment, and economic risk and interest rates for cash, let alone uncertainties of entering an unknown market and the delays of deliveries spanning multiple years that others may face trying to enter…

 

Only Hornby know the true market size, and they are hardly going to say its small, given the time and treasure expended to get this far.

 

Imagine commiting a good 6 figure sum (say your house)  into a “TT safe bet”, and find a 3-4 year wait to get the product and suddenly find the rug pulled by Hornby walking after 2…. Its far safer to commit to a 00 wagon, and wait and see for a while what happens in TT.  TT is a walk not a race, its still new.

 

 

 

 

 

I think you've got it in the last paragraph. Houses. Ravenser brought this up in a comment of 21 11 23 :

 

If you accept the "rule of 3" that a the visible portion of layout should be 3x the length of the longest train , then you need 12' length visible + a 4' fiddle yard to run a freight train that looks absurdly short.... That's 16' , and most contemporary housing doesn't have rooms which have 16' long walls....

 

The other factor, not only are these locos big, but in the contemporary scene, they've swept all before them. Below the 66, the next most plausible modern image loco is now an 08.  There's 'heritage' stuff like a 37 class near where I live but you don't see it out hauling freight.  It's an unnecessarily streamlined, large switching locomotive.

 

Is the trend to larger locos is likely to continue? I can't find a diagram for a 70 class but available data tells me it's even longer than a 66. So probably, yes.

 

There's a well supported scale below OO and TT too, but I think TT is primarily aimed at people who would have gone for OO, till it got 'bigged' out of the equation. 

 

That's why I think Hornby is happy with this baby.  The dimensions of the human & the space he has to live in, require it. There's the novelty of an untried size, but this is TT, not T gauge.  And that novelty has presumably been addressed by pricing it lower.  

[BachelorBoy]

18 hours ago, Hobby said:

I think the point being made was that Heljan seemed to indicate with their announcements that they were much further down the line than "3 or 4 years away" and so cpuld have got in first.

 

Perhaps they weren't being as truthful as some gave them credit for...

 

You seem to be suggesting that they lied.

 

I suspect cockup is more likely than conspiracy, and they just got it wrong.

 

Or they got it right, but the management decided, for other reasons (such as risk, return on capital, allocation of resources) that there was no point going ahead.