Incident near petrill bridge

[newbryford]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Bridge looks a mess:

 

Only the parapet hopefully.

[Ncarter2]

32 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Slued the track about a foot then ripped the cess rail from the pandrols.

Good indication that the sleepers, while looking poor, are not as bad as they may seem. 

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

14 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Only the parapet hopefully.

B&Q probably dont have any sand and bricks on site,if so they are good to go.

[newbryford]

12 minutes ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

B&Q probably dont have any sand and bricks on site,if so they are good to go.

 

As one of the tanks has split, there's plenty of cement available.......

[phil-b259]

9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

There are some very ropey looking sleepers in there 

 

 

 

Get used to more of this sort of thing because of the "We don't need to maintain anything any more - we can use remote monitoring technology (and sack / deskill / remove loads of workers from the front line) attitude at the top of NR.

 

Its not just about rates of pay....

Edited October 21, 2022 by phil-b259

[Jonb82]

 

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

10 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

As one of the tanks has split, there's plenty of cement available.......

Talk about excess stock........we have 306ton out the back

[uax6]

9 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Get used to more of this sort of thing because of the "We don't need to maintain anything any more - we can use remote monitoring technology (and sack / deskill / remove loads of workers from the front line) attitude at the top of NR.

 

Its not just about rates of pay....

I have to agree with Phil here, maintenance isn't seen as sexy, just expensive, so something that can be lived without. Just fix it when it goes wrong....

 

Interestingly the only time remote monitoring has affected things here was when a point motor was detected as being slow and likely to fail. They swapped it out, and less than a fortnight later that new machine was failing to go over.... but that wasn't detected by the monitoring!

 

Andy G

Edited October 21, 2022 by uax6

[newbryford]

14 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

There is a pic somewhere, showing a big flat on one of the wheels of the wagon upside down in the river.

 

 

The offending wheel flat can be seen at 0.51 in the video.

 

 

24 minutes ago, Jonb82 said:

 

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by newbryford
pic added

[Titan]

1 hour ago, newbryford said:

 

The offending wheel flat can be seen at 0.51 in the video.

 

 

 

 

Whilst the flat itself a bit difficult to make out, especially with all the other dings from the derailment, what is clear is the nicely blued heat affected area, so yes - pretty conclusive.

[lmsforever]

Thats going to be an interesting recovery the current view on maintenance seems to be in line with how this country is run.

[Reorte]

3 hours ago, uax6 said:

I have to agree with Phil here, maintenance isn't seen as sexy, just expensive, so something that can be lived without. Just fix it when it goes wrong....

 

Interestingly the only time remote monitoring has affected things here was when a point motor was detected as being slow and likely to fail. They swapped it out, and less than a fortnight later that new machine was failing to go over.... but that wasn't detected by the monitoring!

 

That's the distinct impression I get about a great deal of things, not just the railway, although usually I'm only in a position to tell from the perspective of a random bloke who doesn't work in the industry and just has the casual visual appearance to go on, so probably doesn't mean anything.

 

The other thing money spent on maintenance does is mean there isn't money for the big fancy new stuff to make people go wow (that's  the sexy part I suppose). Which itself ends up tatty and worn out and in need of replacement by the next new shiny thing before long because it's not been maintained.

 

Mind you they said expect the line to be closed for four days, I'll be pretty impressed if that's all cleared and fixed in that time!

Edited October 21, 2022 by Reorte

[The Border Reiver]

Railway engineers have carried out an initial scope of damage to tracks, a railway bridge and line side equipment like signalling. Making those repairs combined with the challenge of recovering the train’s wagons is estimated to take weeks rather than days.

 

Extensive damage to the bridge which is the original one built for the Carlisle to Newcastle line in 1837

 

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/update-on-disruption-for-passengers-after-carlisle-freight-derailment

[big jim]

And an update from RAIB 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/derailment-of-a-freight-train-at-petteril-bridge-junction-carlisle?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications-topic&utm_source=bd6d5b81-9382-4bea-86a3-21a2a4aec22e&utm_content=immediately

[Wheatley]

1. A lot of the 'dodgy' sleepers still have the baseplate attached, as has already been pointed out, so that wasn't the bit that failed. 

 

2.  Spot resleepering is evidence of ongoing maintenance, not lack of maintenance. 

 

3. It was apparently working quite well until someone dragged a 100 ton sledge through it. 

 

I've no idea what the interaction between a locked wheel with a massive flat on it and a trailing point crossing is, but I bet it's violent and I bet the loading/unloading behavior of the suspension on the other wheelset in the bogie is fascinating. 

[Wickham Green too]

39 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

... I've no idea what the interaction between a locked wheel with a massive flat on it and a trailing point crossing is, but I bet it's violent ...

Intriguingly, it seems to have been so violent that what must have been the bottom of the wheel is now at an angle ! 

[newbryford]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-63344421?fbclid=IwAR2UCqm2fjLPPNARECyJFIn-_AxdNb7t2IBFapV2hfrbz5KmSyFp72D2bEQ

[KingEdwardII]

4 hours ago, lmsforever said:

in line with how this country is run

Wot, someone new in charge every other day???

[KingEdwardII]

1 hour ago, big jim said:

an update from RAIB 

That RAIB report has an excellent photo of the suspect wheel, showing a huge gouge - not so much a "flat". That must have been dragged locked a goodly distance - the blueing due to the heat shows up nicely.  Reminds me of the time when one of the rear disc brakes locked up on one of my cars - the whole wheel assembly got incredibly hot before I realized there was a problem.

 

Yours, Mike.

[Gilbert]

I see that an LSL Statesman Settle & Carlisle Circular is cancelled tomorrow - I assume because of this.

ChrisH

[Ncarter2]

16 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Get used to more of this sort of thing because of the "We don't need to maintain anything any more - we can use remote monitoring technology (and sack / deskill / remove loads of workers from the front line) attitude at the top of NR.

 

Its not just about rates of pay....

I get it is a testing time in the industry, but any engineer worth his salt would not knowingly let their asset get to a point it’s unsafe or be in a position where they bow to senior management who don’t hold safety of the line. Those who do, frankly shouldn’t be employed in the role. 

Maintenance will always be necessary, anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. As long as trains run on rails, there will be a need.
What will be different is how we accomplish it, be that revised working practices or alternative repair/replacement methods. We can safely push timescales out, we can safely use different process, providing it’s done in the correct way. 
Remote monitoring, when used correctly, is a fantastic tool, one of many technologies we fail to exploit the full potential of.
NR is on the back foot, its senior management/leadership is out of its depth, they are treating it like a business rather than an industry. I firmly believe  that those in the Ivory tower need to removed and industry experts put in their place, but at the same time, we need to accept that as an industry, we need to modernise and move forward. Just because it worked back in the day, doesn’t mean it’s suitable now. 

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

We need people climbing the ladder to get the top jobs,huge difference between the skilled man and the qualified man and its starting to take its toll,a lot who could write the book on the industry will have give up and left as in most things.

[newbryford]

5 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

That RAIB report has an excellent photo of the suspect wheel, showing a huge gouge - not so much a "flat". That must have been dragged locked a goodly distance - the blueing due to the heat shows up nicely.  Reminds me of the time when one of the rear disc brakes locked up on one of my cars - the whole wheel assembly got incredibly hot before I realized there was a problem.

 

Yours, Mike.

 

The distance between the works and Carlisle is just under 100 miles by rail.

The train would have done 2 "roll-by" inspections at Clitheroe as it backed out of the works, as well as passing numerous manual boxes on the route. In fact, it's manual boxes all the way between the Cement works and where the derailment happened.

 

So it would be unlikely that it would get that far without it being spotted.

 

Someone did mention Culgaith earlier.

Culgaith is about 25 miles and mostly downhill to Carlisle.

 

Anyway - enough of the speculation. I await the RAIB report.

[uax6]

7 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

The distance between the works and Carlisle is just under 100 miles by rail.

The train would have done 2 "roll-by" inspections at Clitheroe as it backed out of the works, as well as passing numerous manual boxes on the route. In fact, it's manual boxes all the way between the Cement works and where the derailment happened.

 

So it would be unlikely that it would get that far without it being spotted.

 

Someone did mention Culgaith earlier.

Culgaith is about 25 miles and mostly downhill to Carlisle.

 

Anyway - enough of the speculation. I await the RAIB report.

 

You would like to think that it would be spotted wouldn't you? But if you trawl through RAIB reports you will find a concerning number of cases where things aren't seen.

Its actually quite difficult to spot a locked up wheelset from a signalbox, here I've got freights going past at different speeds (about 40mph in on direction and about 70mph in the other). Even for the slow one I have to go on the balcony to get a good view of the wheelsets, and to see that they are going round, which is helped by the fact that the axlebox cover on the wagons down here rotates with the axle. The 70mph trains you get very little viewing time and its very difficult to see whats moving and what isn't.

Then add into the mix the fact that you might have other things going on in the box (phone calls, other trains, and windows that can't be cleaned) then its a lot harder than you think to see whats going on...

 

Andy G

[Poor Old Bruce]

15 hours ago, Ncarter2 said:

I get it is a testing time in the industry, but any engineer worth his salt would not knowingly let their asset get to a point it’s unsafe or be in a position where they bow to senior management who don’t hold safety of the line. Those who do, frankly shouldn’t be employed in the role.  

 

It has happened though. Remember Hatfield which led to the downfall of Railtrack?

 

17 hours ago, Wheatley said:

I've no idea what the interaction between a locked wheel with a massive flat on it and a trailing point crossing is, but I bet it's violent and I bet the loading/unloading behavior of the suspension on the other wheelset in the bogie is fascinating. 

 

It's not necessarily the crossing where things go awry, although it wouldn't do the crossing any good. it's at the blade of the points where the 'Outer' flange of the wheel pushes the stock rail out and allows the wheel to drop into the four-foot.