Incident near petrill bridge

[Wheatley]

Part of the remedial work is to reinforce the bridge deck and repair scour damage caused by the upside-down wagon changing the flow of the river. It's not just a bit of relaying and some tamping. 

[newbryford]

Ta to LD.

Set to reopen next week.

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/railway-line-set-to-reopen-after-carlisle-train-derailment?fbclid=IwAR3CQ5zZRXBztYadhIeT1H9Egv5nnsV89Wi2lSPVY-OYe92e4kgP9k-2dT8

[Wickham Green too]

I note that "Passengers will once again have direct trains between Carlisle and Newcastle and Carlisle and Skipton from next week ..." - does that mean that naughty freight trains are still unwelcome ? 🙃

[Simon Lee]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I note that "Passengers will once again have direct trains between Carlisle and Newcastle and Carlisle and Skipton from next week ..." - does that mean that naughty freight trains are still unwelcome ? 🙃

 

Only if they have troublesome trucks......

[Wheatley]

No it means the naughty freight trains haven't been complaining about buses, or having to go the long way round, or lamenting that "in the good old days this would all have been cleared up in 20 minutes" even if it wouldn't have been. 

[newbryford]

Looks like the S&C has had the first through train in weeks.

3J11 RHTT https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:08126/2022-12-06/detailed

Timetable in place for resumption of passengers tomorrow 7/12/22.

 

[The Border Reiver]

WCRC 37685, 37668 & 47804 have run between Carlisle and Corby Gates (where they crossed over and reversed) this afternoon route proving and clearing the rails ahead of the Petterill Bridge reopening tomorrow morning.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, The Border Reiver said:

WCRC 37685, 37668 & 47804 have run between Carlisle and Corby Gates (where they crossed over and reversed) this afternoon route proving and clearing the rails ahead of the Petterill Bridge reopening tomorrow morning.

Northern are currently running 5Z00 ECS Carlisle to Hexham and return with a 158.

[newbryford]

The Castle Cement JPAs involved in the incident (apart from those that were scrapped), have been fitted with axle/wheel/bearing monitoring equipment to prevent a similar occurrence.

(There has been another locked wheelset after the original derailment, but this was picked up before it caused any real damage)

 

Pics from Steve Moore - with permission.

(This is actually VTG 12449)

 

 

 

 

[4630]

3 hours ago, newbryford said:

The Castle Cement JPAs involved in the incident (apart from those that were scrapped), have been fitted with axle/wheel/bearing monitoring equipment to prevent a similar occurrence.

(There has been another locked wheelset after the original derailment, but this was picked up before it caused any real damage)

 

Pics from Steve Moore - with permission.

(This is actually VTG 12449)

 

 

 

Interesting. I wonder if the fitting of this type of axle/wheel/bearing monitoring equipment will become more widespread (mandatory?) on freight vehicles, particularly those carrying dangerous cargo?

 

The derailment and subsequent spillage and fire of a TEA wagon loaded with diesel fuel in the consist of 6A11, Robeston to Theale, near Llangennech on 26th August 2020 springs to mind.   The immediate cause of that derailment is similar to the cement tanker derailment at Petrill Bridge. 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by 4630
to correct spelling

[melmerby]

How common is this with modern bearings?

 

Also how common was it the days of the loose coupled short wheelbase wagons that dominated the UK railway for a well over 100 years?

Hotboxes were quite common but how often a complete seizure?

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

How common is this with modern bearings?

 

Also how common was it the days of the loose coupled short wheelbase wagons that dominated the UK railway for a well over 100 years?

Hotboxes were quite common but how often a complete seizure?

We had one on the Meldon Ballst one night back in the 1970s.  Because of the position of signal boxes 'Stop & Examine' was not sent until the 'box was well on its way.  When the train was stopped the axle journal was running on the wagon underframe - the bearing had disintegrated and vankshed, the W iron had gone,  and all that was left was the journal and the sideframe.

 

That was an ordinary oil box.  And they did still occur at that time.  It was very rare to get a hot box on a roller bearing but if it did happen I was told that the failure tended to be far worse, and potentially far more destructive, than an oil box running hot.

 

But the introduction of hot box detectors (HABDs) in MAS areas was helping by then to catch boxes much more frequently.and before excessive damage occurred

 

In the '90s there were several instances of seized axles on Class 373 Eurostars and SNCF TGVs.  A 373e arrived at Waterloo with a U shaped grove in what was left of the tyres and wouldn't have listed much longer - it had been perfectly ok when it left the Tunnel as the detector din't pick it up.  A similar failure on a TGV in France - also due to a seized drive shaft/gearbox - resulted in a derailment at fairly high speeed when the train entered pointwork (fortunately for the diverging route so not at full LGV line speed

[Steadfast]

3 hours ago, newbryford said:

The Castle Cement JPAs involved in the incident (apart from those that were scrapped), have been fitted with axle/wheel/bearing monitoring equipment to prevent a similar occurrence.

(There has been another locked wheelset after the original derailment, but this was picked up before it caused any real damage)

 

Pics from Steve Moore - with permission.

(This is actually VTG 12449)

 

 

 

 

Interesting to see photos of this being rolled out and deployed onto active wagons. VTG have developed the system and intend to fit it to much of their fleet, these are some of the first wagons so fitted. Here's some info about it.

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2023/10/trial-starts-of-digital-freight-wagon-with-remote-monitoring.html

 

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

How common is this with modern bearings?

Modern roller bearings very rarely cause much problem, especially when compared to older types. What is much more common (though still far from a common day to day occurrence) is a fault with the brakes (for example, but not limited to distributor, brake cylinder, brake rigging, brake block damage) or wheel damage (potentially caused by a slide or a brake defect for example - again not an exhaustive list). Monitoring the axle box rotation should help detect some of the issues causes elsewhere on the wagon that affect wheel rotation.

 

Hopefully that illustrates a little how all the systems on a wagon are reliant on each other, and how the obvious symptom, ie an axlebox seized or rotating slowly, is often not the root cause.

 

Jo

Edited December 20, 2023 by Steadfast

[Reorte]

What does this system do in practice, if it detects a problem? Presumably a message has to get to the driver via some means.

[APOLLO]

Interesting story here.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/25/us/ohio-train-derailment-bearing-vibration/index.html

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11754485/Why-East-Palestine-bomb-train-not-stopped-fire-broke-out.html

 

Question, Did the flat wheel / false flange stop the wheel rotating and caused the subsequent derailment at Petrill Bridge, so no "hot boxes" were detectable ?

 

Brit15

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

21 hours ago, melmerby said:

How common is this with modern bearings?

 

Also how common was it the days of the loose coupled short wheelbase wagons that dominated the UK railway for a well over 100 years?

Hotboxes were quite common but how often a complete seizure?

I think they were likely to be detected more quickly because there were more lineside signalboxes where the bobby had a good chance of noticing the problem visually, at least if the fault was on his side of the line, more workers at the lineside, a guard at the back who might notice smoke or smell from the train in front of him and in steam days the power/weight ratio was a lot less than modern trains, which meant there was a better chance of a driver noticing that "something seems to be dragging".

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Interesting story here.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/25/us/ohio-train-derailment-bearing-vibration/index.html

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11754485/Why-East-Palestine-bomb-train-not-stopped-fire-broke-out.html

 

Question, Did the flat wheel / false flange stop the wheel rotating and caused the subsequent derailment at Petrill Bridge, so no "hot boxes" were detectable ?

 

Brit15

 

 

Some early types of HABD would search a particular temperature range only.  If the axkbox temeorati ure was below that range -or above it(!) the detector would not take notice of t.  An HABD is aimed at the mean level above rail head where axleboxes will be.  Thus if an axle had stopped rotating for some reason and the wheel tyre is overheating/wearing away the axlebox will not be overheating and the detector might not pick up the heat from the skidding wheelset because that heat is at rail head level.

 

It al; depends on the angle of view and sensitivity setting of an HABD.   And don't forget that BR had to improve that sort of thung on theirs because some early HABDs were set off by the exhaust pipes on DMUs

[Wheatley]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

And don't forget that BR had to improve that sort of thung on theirs because some early HABDs were set off by the exhaust pipes on DMUs

 

153s were still setting them off well into the 2000s, when they were converted from 155s the exhaust pipes were re-routed leaving a particularly sharp bend which overheated. Heat sheilds were fitted but were vulnerable to damage and falling off. 

 

On 20/12/2023 at 16:32, melmerby said:

How common is this with modern bearings?

 

Also how common was it the days of the loose coupled short wheelbase wagons that dominated the UK railway for a well over 100 years?

Hotboxes were quite common but how often a complete seizure?

 

Oil bearings give plenty of warning by way of smoke and smell as the oil burns away, and as mentioned there were more people to notice and raise the alarm. Roller bearings tend to either work perfectly or go wrong very quickly but with no visual warning. The first indication is either the bearing disintegrating or the axle end toffee-twisting off. 

 

Incidently, the new 195s have a 'cardan shaft alarm' which essentially measures whether one end of the shaft is trying to go faster than the other. Until the monitoring equipment settled down they appeared in the Control log quite regularly, much to the excitement of those reading it and particularly the non-technical types (like me) responsible for ORR and RAIB reporting. Up til that point cardan shafts usually only made the log if they'd run amok and either pole-vaulted out from under the unit or flailed about removing underframe equipment. Took a while to get used to them being false alarms. 

[rodent279]

Does the nature of the cargo, in this case presumably cement powder, make problems with brake gear seizing up more likely?

[Robert Shrives]

6 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Does the nature of the cargo, in this case presumably cement powder, make problems with brake gear seizing up more likely?

Unlikely, bearings are sealed units so ingress of large particles - cement dust large in this context, water ingress is seen as an issue - one of reasons why modern trains do not paddle any more. 

A non rail incident in Leith docks ended up with a gear box in the water. Inspection showed a thumbprint of stain on a bearing surface, SKF expert explained that it was saltwater a few micron under the surface, it would eventually flake off and cause a rumbling bearing and had potential to fail, eventual home of gearbox was in the upper floors of a building, replacement access would  have be a real PITA... new gearbox and bearing ordered. 

Back in the day the network had wagon depots with covered work bays - I have seen in recent years more mobile solutions used, possibly using MARPLAN  techniques for work planning.  Hence proactive works stop and problems are not caught in time.  The cost saving of extended maintenance periods over "over maintaining" can sometimes cause a storm much bigger than the few pounds the account sees.  

 

 

     

[newbryford]

The last of the repaired JPAs from the derailment was roaded to Clitheroe Cement Works a couple of days ago.

I passed it on my way to work and tipped off my mate to go and get a pic!

(Ta to SM for the pics)

This is VTG 12450 - it doesn't carry the "smart wagon" mods as detailed upthread - yet.

 

 

It looks like 12451/454 455/459 are the writeoffs, leaving just 12 in the fleet.

 

(edit 455, not 454)

Edited January 31 by newbryford