Hornby 2023 Speculation?

[The Black Hat]

13 hours ago, markw said:

WCRC maroon is not the same as BR maroon it is a brighter more red colour, they also do not have the cantrail lining.

I've used Pheonix Paints BR Maroon for coaches, which I think goes with the BR blood and custard livery. It matches quite well. The coaches do have the cantrail strip painted on the lip of the roof, I think its the top yellow and black stripe your thinking of which is no longer there on WCRC stock. 

[Downer]

Seems to me that Hornby have lost/abandoned the already saturated diesel and electric loco markets. I disagree with some on here who think the steam market is saturated  - it’s certainly shrinking, but not that fast - so Hornby’s best bet might be to just concentrate on modern units and the steam they do so well.  If they issue, say, four new motive power toolings, I think they could do at lot worse than add an Electrostar in several liveries to join the already announced Flirt, and produce any three of the following five steam locos: a Southern U, an LMR Stanier or Fowler 2-6-2T, a B16, a Caley 0-4-4T and a J69.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Downer

[Mark Dickerson]

35 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Not sure I like the rods on it though.

 

From that angle it looks like yet another body on a smokey joe chassis.

 

Given how tight filming of the first series was avoiding giving any clues at all, I doubt they’d commit an obvious fauxxpas of unveiling anything serious in the adverts for the new series.

But apparently serious enough to make. Maybe the future isn't just units?

 

(Gotta lure them onto the Pecketts  🧐)

[adb968008]

33 minutes ago, Mark Dickerson said:

But apparently serious enough to make. Maybe the future isn't just units?

 

(Gotta lure them onto the Pecketts  🧐)

Smokey joe probably outsells any other loco in the last 40 years.

 

i’d imagine as the tooling starts wearing out, they simply doll up a newbody to go on it.

 

I’m just surprised they still havent moulded buffers onto it, rather than separate fitting…time/money/margin.

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by adb968008

[adb968008]

A J69 pops up so many times its hard to ignore the comments.

 

But is that interest pulling it, or insiders pushing it ?

 

I cant imagine two manufacturers being successful with a J69.

 

i’d buy the end of service BR Lined blue one, but thats the limit of my interest. J68 variants.. nah. How many J69’s would great eastern fans really buy.. 3, 5, 6 ?
I stopped at 2 N7’s.

I have 2 J50’s also… they sat on shelves for years, indeed I think in some places they still are, and c£60. Theres a lot of N7’s still about too, and they only made a few liveries. Come to think of it the Claud, the B12 and the B17 have all been shelf queens.

 

i’m not a fan of LNER “J”s.. too many of them, too geographically limiting, very samey after a while. I know for those who model a 4 sq mile their chosen “J” operated in would be happy with it, but i’m not sure its always a widened interest.

But for a J69 I suppose it completes a GER collection from small to large passenger and freight loco series.

Edited December 21, 2022 by adb968008

[papagolfjuliet]

My attitude to Hornby's business practices has reached the point where if they made a model of my mum I wouldn't buy it, but trying to be dispassionate for a moment it seems to me that it wouldn't hurt for Hornby to raid its own and the Tri-ang and Dublo back catalogues for models which nobody else makes, and produce new versions of those models to current standards. Some of them are, to my mind, fairly obvious choices which someone is bound to produce sooner or later and so it might as well be Hornby: the D49, the Saint, the R1, the E2, the J83, the Caledonian/Neilson Pug, the Hawksworth County, the 2P, the 06/Barclay shunter, the Dean Single, even the Maunsell L1 if the much-mooted Night Ferry sleeping cars are to appear at some point.

 

But they'll probably just copy what a smaller rival is doing instead.

['CHARD]

12 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

I'm sorry but there isn't general agreement.  If there was why would Bachmann re-issue their Grey Pullman six car unit?  
 

 

I don't think they have, TBH.  The trainset/ Dynamis version is no longer available. This recent announcement wasn't a further production run, just a repackaging of the three year old slow-moving stock as train-packs. 

[E100]

15 hours ago, markw said:

WCRC maroon is not the same as BR maroon it is a brighter more red colour, they also do not have the cantrail lining.

 

Fair enough. That being said I can't see Hornby noticing!

[The Stationmaster]

Having recently carried out some 'research' to try to establish which company(ies) has(ve) shown an interest in looking at (and more?) with the contemporary 'Saint'  all the likely ones seem to have not been involved - they said.  So are Hornby or the Barwell concern in the hunt - time will tell.  So maybe I should add it to my Hornby 'outlier' list alongside the B16?

[TomScrut]

10 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Tooling up a new 4 car multiple unit from scratch now looks like a step too far in OO. Space demands and price point are heavily against you

 

Other than Hornby with the 755 and Revolution with the 180.

[Delta_Who]

Lads, once again... lets try and avoid the Hornby financial speculation and keep it purely on 2023 model speculation. Otherwise we'll be perpetually arguing about Hornby all day xD

There's a thread with pages and pages of this anyway : https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/175754-Hornby-loss/page/7/#comment-5023146 

[Watto1990]

11 hours ago, Yankee said:

Could we be seeing a Adams B4 in some form. 

Screen shots taken from Hornby Model World 2023 trailer.

That really looks like the generic Smokey Joe chassis to me. New bodies for that could be interesting but it’s got me wondering if the chassis itself could be due an update. DCC compatibility, for example? 
 

 

[cctransuk]

4 minutes ago, Watto1990 said:

That really looks like the generic Smokey Joe chassis to me. New bodies for that could be interesting but it’s got me wondering if the chassis itself could be due an update. DCC compatibility, for example? 
 

 

 

Whatever; with a NEM pocket - if that is what the red thing is - way out there, there'll be no chance of buffer-locking!

 

CJI.

[The Black Hat]

3 hours ago, E100 said:

 

Fair enough. That being said I can't see Hornby noticing!

I think most people wont notice about the ends of the coaches being painted maroon either when the Bachmann stock comes out in a standard BR maroon appearance with some lovely WCRC logos added. Still, many will like them and be happy.... I guess that's what matters. 

I'm doing a set based of coaches on the market that I can get without needing much filling and I know Mick has done a charter set too. The stock can get interesting, but it is possible to do. 

[Ravenser]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

 

Bachmanns 150/2 is so close to a 455 its painful to watch !

Its a pity they havent gone beyond to a 150/0 or 318 or even change the cab and do a 319 or a 320/321 or 456 !

 

Bratchell models has built a business for 3 decades doing exactly this.

 

https://www.bratchellmodels.com
 

 

 

 

i bet this wont age well…. I might even give it less than a month, you might even be “doubly” surprised 😀

 

but meanwhile feast on this..newly tooled 4 car multiple unit from scratch. Whats more its a really extremely odd prototype, its not even a mass market model.
 

 

plus youve ignored the 4 car class 755 completely in your dismissive.

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/greater-anglia-class-7554-flirt-4-car-train-pack-era-11-r3964?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIt-KuqqmK_AIVkx4YCh2q4QJ0EAAYASAAEgIUgvD_BwE
 

 

 

So what do you suggest companies do ?

 

Surely your not advocating they all give up OO and goto TT ?

 

.....indeed had TT started with contemporary MUs it would probably stand a much better chance…. As it would appeal directly to those modelkers who dont have grey hair, dont have a big house, dont have as much income but have 3 more decades of enthusiasm and time to make space, build a layout and still have the exact same contemporary units around them.

The hobby will need to adapt, it has no choice as theres too many modellers in the hobby to give up and walk away, the market is too big to simply fade, or change gauge. 
 

like it or not, passenger locomotive haulage ended for the most part by 2005. The future of the real railway, therefore the future of the hobby is multiple units.
 

Additionally, when it comes to 1948-2005 in locos, it needs to widen its scope… wind the clock back 100 years for steam, imo theres a market for it, its the only steam that seems to be consistently selling out…secr D, Terrier, LNW Precursor, Caley, NER railcar, GW SRM, GNR C1, Marsh Atlantic, Stirling Single…. theres a very distinct pattern of success there.

 

 

Have you ever attempted to build a Bratchill kit? I have . 

 

My verdict on the 150 ? Everything on the underframe needs replacing , as the kit supplies underframe bits for a Mk3 3rd rail EMU not a DMU . No engine , no exhaust, no radiators, wrong equipment boxes...

 

The bogie sideframes are wrong . You need to replace them. The windows aren't good - new etches and glazing required. The ends need detailing etches. The basic bodyshells are ok , but there the good news stops. Everything else is a source it yourself job.

 

(Then you have to sort out the paint job...)

 

Have you ever seen a Bratchill 150 running on a layout? 

 

(Mines stalled on a bookshelf , as I lost one of the JSW window frame etches at a show and can't source a matching replacement. I gather I got further than most)

 

Bratchill have in fact done a 321  . I've seen one built. It fell off coming out of the fiddle yard on the club project, every time. Possibly due to the tension locks used between vehicles. You need 2 motor bogies to shift one (source those now...) The paint finish wasn't anywhere near modern RTR standards - and it wasn't one of the tougher liveries. Windows - see comments on the 150

 

We don't see many Bratchill EMUs out there on layouts . The fact that a credible Southern / GE suburban train is 8' long in OO and 4' long in N may have something to do with it. You need a VERY large  layout to operate 8 car trains in squadron service

 

The fact Charlie Petty thinks it isn't worthwhile keeping DC Kits in production , and that Bratchill haven't extended the range speaks volumes for demand

 

(Meanwhile a Bratchill kit for a 4 car unit now costs £430 , without anything to motorise them... That ewill need  2 motor bogies, and thick end of a hundred quid on top..)  The wheels supplied are unpowered, for all bogies. When I queried this for the 150 (why am I paying an extra 25% for wheels I won't be using?) I was told he expected the majority of purchasers wiouldn't motorise the model....

 

If the future lies in MUs, then that is inexorably going to push the future into a much smaller scale than OO. N gauge or potentially TT120 are your options.

 

But the idea that a 313 (spent most of its life between Moorgate and Letchworth, with occasional outings on the N London as far as - gasp - Watford! , with Coastway thrown in) is a better commercial proposition than a large class of Pacifics, with a 40+ year service life , operating between London,. West Yorkshire, Tyneside, Edinburgh , Glasgow and Aberdeen , plus Manchester - Marylebone via leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield , and a very high profile preserved example, is absurd.

 

Yet the claim that a 313 would have been a much better flagship for TT120 than an A3 is being given a surprising level of credance . Not even Bratchill can be bothered doing a kit for 313/4/5... 

 

We will see how commercially successful KR models are with the 4DD . As someone noted, only 2 vehicles have to be tooled up, prices have now risen to £375 a unit, and this is a direct sales business model , so there is no retailers markup. (The fact the 180 is Revolution - also based on the one run / sign up before hand with deposit/ driect salex/it doesn't get made until we have enough orders business model , is also significant)

 

Most EMUs seem to have 4 different vehicles - motor /pantograph intermediate, intermediate with toilet, DTCO and DTSO

 

The Flirt is actually 3 and a bit cars . But more importantly it's not a pure electric. The 800 series are hybrids. You do not have to erect OHLE to run them sensibly. Erecting OHLE is another major hurdle to modelling 25kV electrics.

 

For my sins, I spent a number of years heavily involved with an unsuccessful club project to build a medium sized 25kV electric layout using EMUs (and quite a few DMUs too). I have a home layout which is normally heavily dependant on DMUs . Both in OO. So I'm probably more familiar with the practical issues raised than most....

Edited December 21, 2022 by Ravenser
Merchant Navies aren't a small scale. N gauge is

[adb968008]

Interesting post.

 

My experience with Bratchels kits has been pretty good. The cab ends could be better, and agree spares is given to you up front are as at your own risk.

None of that detracts from the fact it exists.

 

if you look back at most rtr locos, they seem to exist in a sliding scale of demand from various kits made in the past.

(Kit manufacturers bemoan that rtr destroys their business).

 

not sure why your comparing a 313 to a pacific. Its no different than comparing a Paget Locomotive to a class 180, and at least they operated on the same line in that comparison.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by adb968008

[wombatofludham]

Actually the "313" isn't such a niche idea as it might seem.  The "PEP" design was highly standardised, so using some clever tooling and a range of separately added details, any of Classes 313, 314, 315, 507 and 508 could be made with a limited range of mouldings.  Class 313 have worked not just GN line services in three liveries, but North London and Watford services in thre liveries, 315 the Great Eastern in blue-grey, NSE, FGE, WAGN and the possibly more lucrative London Overground livery (although lacking the iconic status of the Bachmann Undergound S stock which fetch daft prices second hand, no doubt the London Transport museum would be interested in flogging Overground units), and the 314s have soldiered on around Glasgow in blue/grey, Strathclyde "red", Carmine and Cream and (I think) "Spotrail" livery.  The 507-8 units have worked in blue grey (including south of the Thames), Merseyrail-Regional Railways yellow and the more recent liveries (including one that carried a "Beatles" special livery) plus, briefly, Connex, and South East trains.  The 313s of course are also running in the attractive "Southern" livery, on single track branch lines, as well as the celebrity "Big Blue" retro liveried unit.

Although personally I would struggle to find a use for a "PEP" unit as the Midlands was one area they never reached, a "PEP" unit with it's highly standardised bodyshell reducing the need for different mouldings, a huge range of iconic liveries, and quite a varied range of locations both on the stabiliser rail and knitting electric network, with the potential for London collectors, and those who snap up everything "Spotrail" (which do seem to sell extremely well) to generate sales plus eventually, when "Big Blue" retires, a possible NRM "National Collection in Miniature" tie in as 313201 has been earmarked for the National Collection, I wouldn't rule out a PEP style unit coming forward.

Just probably not from Hornby.

Edited December 21, 2022 by wombatofludham

[Ravenser]

58 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

not sure why your comparing a 313 to a pacific. Its no different than comparing a Paget Locomotive to a class 180, and at least they operated on the same line in that comparison.

 

 

 

There seems to be something of a drum  beat going that Hornby would have done much better tooling a 313 as the flagship of the TT120 , and the choice of an A3 shows SK's purblind refusal to understand the modern market..

 

As I've indicated , I think these line of argument is daft. There does seem to be a very strong prejudice against the A3s as a class these days, and loud orchestrated groans at the existence of  models of the things. In practice they were a very major class, which saw long and wide service. When we see the demands for every detailed varient of certain classes to be done RTR  it's surprising how few A1/A3 varients we see

 

There is also comment being made that Hornby are mis-serving the market by catering to modellers of the ECML rather than modellers of the Withered Arm. The ECML is the country's second most important mainline, and serves a lot of conurbations the length of the country. The Withered Arm was the number 2 route in the West Country - a smaller and much less populated area. Layouts based on the ECML include quite a few flagship famous 4mm layouts (Stoke Summit , Gamston Bank, Biggleswade, Gresley Beat, Retford, Little Bytham, Peterborough N ...) I'm struggling to think of many equivalents for the LSWR main line, though we do see a lot of models of the West Country branches off it

 

So the market for ex LNER stuff should be intrinsically stronger. The great strength of a West Country Pacific is simply that you can credibily run it on a branch line hauling 3 coaches (Space again)

 

P.S I don't think the 150 was Bratchill's finest hour. It was plainly a spin off from the rest of the range - "how can I get a cheap entry kit out with minimum investment in new tooling?"

 

But if you want to model the GE Main line - it will cost you nearly £1000 per train (2 x 321) , you'll have to do it north of Shenfield (no 315), and you will need space to accomodate banks of 8' trains in the fiddle yard. This means you'll need at least 20' of length available. Even then, compression of the formations is needed (no 12 car trains, cut down Norwich expresses). Some serious conversion work on a 350 will be needed to product 360s

 

Then you have to get your soldering iron out and scratchbuild the knitting

 

You start to see why modelling a railway run by 2 car DMUs with 153s as strengtheners, or modelling 3rd rail territory in N are much easier options...

 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Ravenser

[matchmaker]

6 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

I've used Pheonix Paints BR Maroon for coaches, which I think goes with the BR blood and custard livery. It matches quite well. The coaches do have the cantrail strip painted on the lip of the roof, I think its the top yellow and black stripe your thinking of which is no longer there on WCRC stock. 

One problem about changing Hornby Mk 1s to make them look reasonable for WCRC is the bogies - the Hornby TSOs have BR1 bogies, WCRC Mk 1 TSOs have either Commonwealth or B4. Guess what Hornby don't sell as spares?

Edited December 21, 2022 by matchmaker

[D9020 Nimbus]

I'm pretty sure the class 110 DMU mentioned is the Hornby 1980s tooling. What — if any — changes are being made to it I'm not sure; it's in the railroad range. It was, IMHO, one of the better models of its time.

 

I'm puzzled about the references to the need for OHLE being a major issue. Some years back the complaint was that no OHLE was available; the trade have responded, in OO at least. And in other European countries — Germany, France, Austria, Switzerland and others — many electric locos and at least some units are available: no less than three models of the class 101 DB electric loco have been issued in N gauge since 2015. And the need for OHLE doesn’t seem to have deterred the many RhB modellers even in the U.K. …

 

The length of modern trains is an issue, and current demands for authenticity rule out the traditional means of selling centre trailers.

[Northmoor MPD]

3 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

I think most people wont notice about the ends of the coaches being painted maroon either when the Bachmann stock comes out in a standard BR maroon appearance with some lovely WCRC logos added. Still, many will like them and be happy.... I guess that's what matters. 

I'm doing a set based of coaches on the market that I can get without needing much filling and I know Mick has done a charter set too. The stock can get interesting, but it is possible to do. 

 

1 hour ago, matchmaker said:

One problem about changing Hornby Mk 1s to make them look reasonable for WCRC is the bogies - the Hornby TSOs have BR1 bogies, WCRC Mk 1 TSOs have either Commonwealth or B4. Guess what Hornby don't sell as spares?

I’ve just started building my rake of WCRC MK1s, I’ve found a good starting point are Hornby’s latest Harry Potter MK1s, They have maroon ends, orange stripe, correct bogies and are the latest toolings.

I’m just removing the Harry Potter logos and replacing with some WCRC transfers from Railtec, A covering of varnish, paint the bogie details and darken the roofs and that’s close enough for me 🙂

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Northmoor MPD

[MartinM]

 often wonder if they would do an up to date L1 4-4-0 like the old Triang one... >

[Dunsignalling]

21 minutes ago, MartinM said:

 often wonder if they would do an up to date L1 4-4-0 like the old Triang one... >

Hornby has had the best part of 40 years think about it, so I'd guess it's not high on their to-do list.

 

In the meantime they have done a couple of Southern 4-4-0s, the T9 and the Schools, to recent, if not fully current standards, and both are rather higher-profile classes than the L1.

 

I can't honestly see much likelihood of Hornby doing more, especially as Rails/Dapol have been working their way through the ex-SECR classes, including the E1 rebuild which is pretty similar.

 

If anybody did pick another, my money would be on the preserved T3.

 

John

 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[TomScrut]

6 hours ago, Ravenser said:

(no 315)

 

That's an interesting point of view. I have never thought of not modelling a location due to needing a particular thing to run in that area.

 

I think of it more as what you have set your region than what you don't have.

[adb968008]

13 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

There seems to be something of a drum  beat going that Hornby would have done much better tooling a 313 as the flagship of the TT120 , and the choice of an A3 shows SK's purblind refusal to understand the modern market..

If your hearing drums in your head i’d see a doctor rather than read a forum on line.

 

I’m not sure where a 313 is coming from ?

 

However York design units (thats 150/317/8/9/20/21/455/456) have between them, using the same basic body shell design, worked from Penzance, all the way to London, along the LSW, into Kent, upto Anglia, All of  Wales, all around the north, east and west, and all the way upto as far as Inverness.

That must surely be 90% of the navigable UK rail network.

Its also 35+ years

And 40+ liveries

I believe today, 35 years later, I could still cover at least half the UK rail network just using something based on this body shell, even to obscure places in Teeside and Wirral, Anglia, Surrey, Cornwall, Wales.

 

As side of an 08 shunter, I cannot think of any other design, thats achieved that level of regular consistent coverage, with no steam comparison.

 

Why you think thats era, geographically, age and artistically limited, maybe worth giving that head a second wobble.

everyone knows 3 locos will sell in this world, smokey joe, scotsman and mallard, everything else is about longevity and hobby interest, so lets move beyond comparing everything to those 3.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by adb968008