GWR O11/15 Opens and V14/16 Vans - order book now open!

[Wickham Green too]

6 hours ago, SRyan said:

... attached to ... a pull-push train on Southern metals at Brockenhurst in 1960 ...

The caption says it's come from Bournemouth West via the 'Corkscrew' - so it's a fair bet that the van is substituting for one of the ex SECR Air-Control vans which were regulars on those services.

[57xx]

53 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

Not easy to see on a mobile but I think it has the flat rather than round type tie bars which also suggests a later wagon (tho not conclusive).

 

There was a debate a while back about how long the 9' V21s lasted, let alone the earlier ones Rapido are doing. I sold mine in the end as hadn't come across one in the late 50s so would actually be quite interesting in its own right, if it was one!

 

Yes, they do look flat on a 27" monitor too. :)

[Dunsignalling]

On 12/01/2023 at 19:24, Hal Nail said:

Not easy to see on a mobile but I think it has the flat rather than round type tie bars which also suggests a later wagon (tho not conclusive).

 

There was a debate a while back about how long the 9' V21s lasted, let alone the earlier ones Rapido are doing. I sold mine in the end as hadn't come across one in the late 50s so would actually be quite interesting in its own right, if it was one!

There is a photo, dated July 1960, in "Twilight of the Goods" (Don Rowland) of an unfitted V18 (the later Morton-brake diagram) in freshly overhauled condition, though I doubt it remained in revenue traffic for more than a couple of years thereafter. 

 

1960s photos of unfitted V16 vans (with DC brakes) are harder to find but, on page 62 of "The Acquired Wagons of British Railways, Vol. 4" (David Larkin) there's one in pretty good condition pictured at Salisbury in August 1961. However, I suspect that any needing repairs would be routinely condemned by then.

 

I've seen several photos of vacuum-fitted V14s either side of 1960 (two, captioned 1961 and 1962, on the same page of Mr Larkin's book mentioned above.

 

Vacuum-fitted V18s don't seem to have completely disappeared until 1964/5.

 

John

Edited January 20, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Sitham Yard]

On 12/01/2023 at 19:24, Hal Nail said:

Not easy to see on a mobile but I think it has the flat rather than round type tie bars which also suggests a later wagon (tho not conclusive).

 

There was a debate a while back about how long the 9' V21s lasted, let alone the earlier ones Rapido are doing. I sold mine in the end as hadn't come across one in the late 50s so would actually be quite interesting in its own right, if it was one!

The V21 vans story seems complicated. Reference to John Lewis's article in Great Western Journal Numbers 9 & 10 shows that although both unfitted and fitted vans were originally on diagram V21 the unfitted vans were later transferred to diagram V33. However some of these were equipped with the vacuum brake between 1958 and 1960. Quite a number of fitted vans were converted by BR in the 1950's into Pallet Vans, probably from 1955 onwards although as a result of a number of accidents they were withdrawn in the mid 1960's. I suspect by the late 1950's the unfitted vans were being withdrawn in favour of fitted and 10ft wheelbase vans as traffic was in decline.   

Andrew

[Dunsignalling]

Photographs suggest that unfitted vans remained surprisingly numerous into the first half of the 1960s but disappeared rapidly from 1964/5. A lot of smaller goods yards closed around then, which might offer an explanation for that.

 

Up to that time, one factor was probably more influential in deciding the fate of older 9' wheelbase vans than any other; whether or not the roof remained weathertight. 

 

That would have trumped the presence or lack of vacuum brake by some margin!

 

John

Edited January 20, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

58 minutes ago, Sitham Yard said:

The V21 vans story seems complicated. Reference to John Lewis's article in Great Western Journal Numbers 9 & 10 shows that although both unfitted and fitted vans were originally on diagram V21 the unfitted vans were later transferred to diagram V33. However some of these were equipped with the vacuum brake between 1958 and 1960. Quite a number of fitted vans were converted by BR in the 1950's into Pallet Vans, probably from 1955 onwards although as a result of a number of accidents they were withdrawn in the mid 1960's. I suspect by the late 1950's the unfitted vans were being withdrawn in favour of fitted and 10ft wheelbase vans as traffic was in decline.   

Andrew

TTBOMK, B.R only added vacuum brake to 10' wheelbase vans and wagons.

 

V21 and V33 were both built on 9' underframes. 

 

John

Edited January 20, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Sitham Yard]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

TTBOMK, B.R only added vacuum brake to 10' wheelbase vans and wagons.

 

V21 and V33 were both built on 9' underframes. 

 

John

I agree it seems strange and I thought the same as you. However  John Lewis appears to have had access to BR records (probably notes in the GWR Wagon Register) as he quotes 11 example numbers with the month and year each one was converted. It appears that The Titfield Thunderbolt Bookshop still has this edition in stock if you wish to read it. 

Andrew

 

[Dunsignalling]

9 minutes ago, Sitham Yard said:

I agree it seems strange and I thought the same as you. However  John Lewis appears to have had access to BR records (probably notes in the GWR Wagon Register) as he quotes 11 example numbers with the month and year each one was converted. It appears that The Titfield Thunderbolt Bookshop still has this edition in stock if you wish to read it. 

Andrew

 

I wonder if it was, perhaps, a case of re-using vacuum brake equipment salvaged from withdrawn V21s on (newer?) unfitted examples that happened to be in Swindon for overhaul at the right time.

 

John

[Sitham Yard]

8 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I wonder if it was, perhaps, a case of re-using vacuum brake equipment salvaged from withdrawn V21s on (newer?) unfitted examples that happened to be in Swindon for overhaul at the right time.

 

John

Good thought. The equipment could have come from any suitable fitted wagons or vans that were being scrapped at the time.  

Andrew

[RapidoCorbs]

Hi folks,

 

We are putting together the running numbers and artwork designs for this project at the moment (concentrating on the open wagons first).

 

For O11s (unfitted) we have a full set of running numbers which have corroborating photos (not always for livery but also for the build spec. of that wagon - rub strips, door springs, buffers, V-hanger location, horizontal straps, tie bars etc.) but O15 photos are very thin on the ground.

 

I have a list of proposed running numbers, mostly from the batches listed in the Atkins/Tourret bible, and a couple of photos, but if anyone has photos of O15s they would be willing to share (or could point me in the direction of where to find) I would be very grateful. Either in this thread or by direct message.

 

Many thanks

[Dunsignalling]

 

Thanks for the info, but slightly disappointed that the vans aren't being dealt with first. 😉

[RapidoCorbs]

54 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Thanks for the info, but slightly disappointed that the vans aren't being dealt with first. 😉

 

Got to wait until after CNY for the factory designers to make their amends :D

 

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

I have a list of proposed running numbers, mostly from the batches listed in the Atkins/Tourret bible,

 

This sentence implies that you have grounds for thinking that the information in GWR Goods Wagons (or whichever edition you are using) is incomplete?

[RapidoCorbs]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This sentence implies that you have grounds for thinking that the information in GWR Goods Wagons (or whichever edition you are using) is incomplete?

 

For the O11s, the details vary between Lots and sometimes in the middle of Lots.

As an example from the O11s, we've disregarded any running number from L732 as photos of wagons from that Lot show that them with transverse leaf sprung buffers, offset V-hangers and the earlier diagonal strapping with the 'hockey stick' bend at the base.

 

Like this one:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GWR_'OPEN_A'_No.10931_-_33581519598.jpg

 

This doesn't match the version we are tooling, so am keen to avoid any clashes.

Likewise some wagons have round rub strips, some have the door springs close together, etc.

 

I only have one (!) period photo of an O15 in the reference folder, which is 30307 in 1947. Thankfully this does match the tooling.

[Craigw]

On 23/01/2023 at 19:44, RapidoCorbs said:

 

For the O11s, the details vary between Lots and sometimes in the middle of Lots.

As an example from the O11s, we've disregarded any running number from L732 as photos of wagons from that Lot show that them with transverse leaf sprung buffers, offset V-hangers and the earlier diagonal strapping with the 'hockey stick' bend at the base.

 

Like this one:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GWR_'OPEN_A'_No.10931_-_33581519598.jpg

 

 

 

I just had a look again at the Goods wagon book and I read that as being some lots were a mixture of O11 and O14 wagons. If that is the case I think you may have lucked on the O14 wagons.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[RapidoCorbs]

On 25/01/2023 at 07:49, Craigw said:

 

I just had a look again at the Goods wagon book and I read that as being some lots were a mixture of O11 and O14 wagons. If that is the case I think you may have lucked on the O14 wagons.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

 

Quite possibly (aside from the door spring spacing difference which seems to vary).

VAN QUESTION

 

O15 question aside, we are working on the numbers/variants for the vaaaans.

 

In 1918-1919, 300 unfitted V16s (possibly also V12s, the 2 sources I have here don't agree) were converted for transporting meat, which involved insulating the bodies and blanking off the louvres (although the hoods remained fitted).

These were designated X6 and ran until 1921-1923 when they were either converted back to normal vans or Y4 banana vans (when vacuum brakes and steam heating was fitted).

In theory the external details should remain the same, so we might be able to produce a livery variant to depict these meat van conversions by taking the running numbers of known banana vans.

 

This is a long shot but has anyone ever seen a photograph or livery description of an X6 and would they be able to share details on it?

 

Gareth Price's notes say:
"MICA. A/B bodies were painted white with red lettering, whereas ‘MICA’ would be painted onto the standard GWR Freight Grey livery."

 

X6s were MICA A. Not yet figured out if they should be white/red or grey/white.

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by RapidoCorbs

[hmrspaul]

2 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

 

 

This is a long shot but has anyone ever seen a photograph or livery description of an X6 and would they be able to share details on it?

 

 

 

Are you working with John Lewis on these?

 

Paul

[RapidoCorbs]

9 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Are you working with John Lewis on these?

 

Paul

 

I've not yet spoken directly with John although his articles have been invaluable.

[hmrspaul]

2 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

 

I've not yet spoken directly with John although his articles have been invaluable.

 

He responds regularly on some of the specialist social sites. As you have specific questions I think you should get in touch - he is the GWR wagon steward of the HMRS. https://hmrs.org.uk/stewards

 

Paul

[David Stannard]

6 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

 

Quite possibly (aside from the door spring spacing difference which seems to vary).

VAN QUESTION

 

O15 question aside, we are working on the numbers/variants for the vaaaans.

 

In 1918-1919, 300 unfitted V16s (possibly also V12s, the 2 sources I have here don't agree) were converted for transporting meat, which involved insulating the bodies and blanking off the louvres (although the hoods remained fitted).

These were designated X6 and ran until 1921-1923 when they were either converted back to normal vans or Y4 banana vans (when vacuum brakes and steam heating was fitted).

In theory the external details should remain the same, so we might be able to produce a livery variant to depict these meat van conversions by taking the running numbers of known banana vans.

 

This is a long shot but has anyone ever seen a photograph or livery description of an X6 and would they be able to share details on it?

 

Gareth Price's notes say:
"MICA. A/B bodies were painted white with red lettering, whereas ‘MICA’ would be painted onto the standard GWR Freight Grey livery."

 

X6s were MICA A. Not yet figured out if they should be white/red or grey/white.

 

 

 

 

  With regards to the X6 it would be a lot of effort for a vehicle that only ran for about 4-5 years, mind you an X4, X5 or X7 would be more than welcome for an upcoming wagon project 😉.

 

On another note the X2's and X6 were painted the typical freight grey, there was a fairly extensive article in Railway Modeller back in the 80's that detailed the conversion of the Wrenn Mica's to a more accurate model, I will have to scratch around my collection to find it.

[RapidoCorbs]

21 minutes ago, David Stannard said:

 

  With regards to the X6 it would be a lot of effort for a vehicle that only ran for about 4-5 years, mind you an X4, X5 or X7 would be more than welcome for an upcoming wagon project 😉.

 

On another note the X2's and X6 were painted the typical freight grey, there was a fairly extensive article in Railway Modeller back in the 80's that detailed the conversion of the Wrenn Mica's to a more accurate model, I will have to scratch around my collection to find it.

 

Well if it is as we are hoping which is a livery variation of a V16 then it's nowhere near as much effort as tooling a whole new model  😜 not much different to offering a wartime livery really.

 

We have been having a debate about white/red vs grey/white, much as I would be disappointed if they were grey it would at least provide an answer. If you do happen across the article or know which RM it was in, I would very much appreciate it!

 

 

[David Stannard]

2 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

We have been having a debate about white/red vs grey/white, much as I would be disappointed if they were grey it would at least provide an answer. If you do happen across the article or know which RM it was in, I would very much appreciate it!

 

 

Luckily I have a slight degree of organisation with notes and old magazines, I’ve also got some old drawings which I have no idea where I sourced them nearly 30 years ago. The issue of Railway Modeller was from July 1977, I’ve also attached photos of the drawings as I don’t have access to a scanner, I will try and get some scanned copies for you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by David Stannard

[RapidoCorbs]

6 hours ago, David Stannard said:

Luckily I have a slight degree of organisation with notes and old magazines, I’ve also got some old drawings which I have no idea where I sourced them nearly 30 years ago. The issue of Railway Modeller was from July 1977, I’ve also attached photos of the drawings as I don’t have access to a scanner, I will try and get some scanned copies for you.

 

 

Thank you David! I've read through the article but as far as I can tell it does not say what colour the X6s were.

 

As I understand it, the definitions and painting instructions are:

MICA - Ventilated (became MEAT) - Grey with white lettering - X1, 10 of X2

MICA A - Insulated (became INSUL-MEAT) - White with red lettering - X3, X9, X10

MICA B - Insulated and Ventilated/convertible (became VENT-INSUL-MEAT) - White with red lettering - X2 (apart from 10 which were MICA), X4, X5, X7, X8

 

The V16s converted to X6s had the ventilators blanked off and cork sheeting added to the inside, becoming MICA A, although remained unfitted and there is no mention of refrigeration (fridge wagons appear to have been zinc-lined).

 

(above from Atkins/Tourret book, Gareth Price's article on GWR.org.uk, John Lewis' article in GWR journal)

 

However, it makes sense that white+red livery means 'refrigerated' and as the X6s were not fitted with the ice system or zinc lining, it could be that they were indeed grey but with MICA A lettering?

Great Western Way would support this as it says 'Meat vans without lettering were painted all over grey'.

 

They don't neatly fit into any of the other categories so MICA A was probably the closest fit for these 'quick fix' wagons.

 

The Roche drawing confuses me a little, as it seems to conflate the MICA definition with MICA A, and is labelled X4 though these had DC not Morton brakes (unless later converted?)

[David Stannard]

41 minutes ago, RapidoCorbs said:

The Roche drawing confuses me a little, as it seems to conflate the MICA definition with MICA A, and is labelled X4 though these had DC not Morton brakes (unless later converted?)

 

I have a few more copies of the Roche drawing in my collection, the most frustrating part is that most of vans and opens don't have the actual diagram types or lot numbers.

[Compound2632]

59 minutes ago, RapidoCorbs said:

The Roche drawing confuses me a little, as it seems to conflate the MICA definition with MICA A, and is labelled X4 though these had DC not Morton brakes (unless later converted?)

 

12 minutes ago, David Stannard said:

I have a few more copies of the Roche drawing in my collection, the most frustrating part is that most of vans and opens don't have the actual diagram types or lot numbers.

 

The Roche drawings are very much a secondary source and known to be prone to errors. 

 

Does the GWS archive hold any Swindon C&W drawings?