GWR O11/15 Opens and V14/16 Vans - order book now open!

[Compound2632]

On 17/02/2023 at 11:43, RapidoCorbs said:

In the Atkins book, it infers that most of the non-vac stock was common user post-grouping, but in general the vac stock wore NCU plates. Imagine some of these would have been removed in wartime? Certainly our lone O15 photo in post-36 livery had no NCU plate.

 

On 17/02/2023 at 12:08, Aire Head said:

Before the war VB stock was added to the common user pool. Can't remember the exact year (1937/8?) but that would be why the NCU plate was no longer present

 

According to the lists in Atkins et al., GWR Goods Wagons (3rd edition) and Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 4A, the following were added to the Common user pool:

• LNER, LMS, and Met open wagons fitted with vacuum brake from 9 Oct 1936
• LNER, LMS, Met, and SR covered wagons fitted with vacuum brake also from 9 Oct 1936
• All open wagons from 5 Sept 1939
• GWR fitted covered wagons from 5 Sept 1939.

In other words, GWR vacuum-braked opens and vans remained NCU up to the outbreak of war.

[Compound2632]

On 17/02/2023 at 12:40, Miss Prism said:

Yes. For GWR wagons manufactured with RCH fittings after 1922, the solebar numberplate became the standard RCH 'D' shape.

 

Which was, of course, simply the Midland design of 1913. I'm trying to get to the bottom of RCH design. What is clear is that the drawings for the first RCH PO wagon specification of 1887 were made under Thomas Clayton's direction, i.e. in the Derby C&W Drawing Office, apart from those relating to iron or steel underframes, which were made under William Dean's direction, i.e. in the Swindon C&W Drawing Office. But I've not yet got to the bottom of later revisions and additions. The Midland was the largest company in terms of volume and value of goods and mineral traffic, so it's hardly surprising that it should have had the greatest hand in the RCH specifications. 

[41516]

On 17/02/2023 at 14:42, The Stationmaster said:

As far as the standpipes are concerned it meant red - after all it refers to both passenger and freight vehicles in the same sentence.  The same colour would have to be used consistently otherwise the Instruction becomes  meaningless and we are talking about a safety issue.......

 

It does seem that either direction was not followed universally or body colour was tolerated for use on vac pipes on fitted freight stock in the steam era - I can only go from photograhic evidence as far as possible as I don't have the direct experience of my primary modelling period (mid 1950s) to go on.  

 

I've ignored any B/W images and anything post the end of steam for these, but most are from the 1960s (1950s colour images, especially of freight stock being rare) and from what I have to hand.

 

It's something I'd love to really get to the bottom of - the more evidence and research that can be pulled together then better, as far as I'm concerned. 

 

 

Swan necks are much harder, both to find good photos and because they are normally filthy!

 

 

 

[BenL]

12 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

 

The wartime O11 draft may end up reverting to an ex-works look without the faded patches (where it's clearly had planks swapped from another wagon), but likewise it may having these represented by an ever-so-slightly lighter shade of grey. TBC...

Please take this as a strong vote for keeping the faded patches on the post-1942 GW example, as it’s what’s on the prototype photo (which from memory is in Russell’s Pictorial Record of GW Wagons). Plus if you look at the photo closely, you’ll see it was not fully repainted when the post-42 lettering was applied - you can see that the only new painting is on the l/h bottom plank for the post-42 branding to be painted on to, and over the remnants of the pre-37 16 inch G W branding, of which the location of part of the G has been shifted by the rearrangement of planks during  the overhaul. This fits with wartime wagon overhaul policy, which generally involved patch painting only where necessary, and not full repaints. So in this instance, depicting an ex-works full repaint would not be prototypical. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by BenL

[The Stationmaster]

56 minutes ago, 41516 said:

 

It does seem that either direction was not followed universally or body colour was tolerated for use on vac pipes on fitted freight stock in the steam era - I can only go from photograhic evidence as far as possible as I don't have the direct experience of my primary modelling period (mid 1950s) to go on.  

 

I've ignored any B/W images and anything post the end of steam for these, but most are from the 1960s (1950s colour images, especially of freight stock being rare) and from what I have to hand.

 

It's something I'd love to really get to the bottom of - the more evidence and research that can be pulled together then better, as far as I'm concerned. 

 

 

Swan necks are much harder, both to find good photos and because they are normally filthy!

 

 

 

But are the wagons fitted or 'blow throughs' (i.e. piped) - that' could be something of a dangerous puzzle for those who needed to know and probanly didn't have time to look i under the wagon - not an easy tak at night when you're ina hurryr.  Most likely down to sloppy repairer or works procedure in my view as teh WR Instruction which I have quoted very clearly listed coaching stock anf d wagins together.

 

And there are pre-1960 dated colour photos showing standpipes in the correct colour red which in turn suggest to me that it was either misinterpretation or sloppy painting practice at some places.

[RapidoCorbs]

44 minutes ago, BenL said:

Please take this as a strong vote for keeping the faded patches on the post-1942 GW example, as it’s what’s on the prototype photo (which from memory is in Russell’s Pictorial Record of GW Wagons). Plus if you look at the photo closely, you’ll see it was not fully repainted when the post-42 lettering was applied - you can see that the only new painting is on the l/h bottom plank for the post-42 branding to be painted on to, and over the remnants of the pre-37 16 inch G W branding, of which the location of part of the G has been shifted by the rearrangement of planks during  the overhaul. This fits with wartime wagon overhaul policy, which generally involved patch painting only where necessary, and not full repaints. So in this instance, depicting an ex-works full repaint would not be prototypical. 

 

Yes I agree, we'll try and see if we can achieve it without it looking naff or tacky.

[MarkSG]

One of the things that factory weathering can do much more effectively than end-user weathering, at least without a lot of work and some considerable skill, is reproduce faded lettering and colours. 

 

Dirt and grime effects are relatively easy to add to rolling stock because, like real dirt and grime, it's going on top of what's already there. But fading isn't an addition to what's there, it's a removal (or alteration) of what was once there. Similarly with rust and stains, they're something which comes from the inside out rather than being the outer layer. So you can't easily reproduce them by adding another layer on top of what's already there, you have to use a much more invasive form of weathering to do it by hand.

 

I have seen some really good hand-weathered stock that does effectively reproduce fading, rust and staining. But I've never managed anything that good when I've tried it myself, and, to be honest, I have a feeling I never will. I simply don't have the time (or, to be frank, the dedication) to hone my skills to that level. But, from a manufacturer perspective, it's just a different livery to apply to the unpainted model. So I would like to see more of it done, and I'd buy models (particularly wagons and locos) which do offer those kind of factory weathered effects. 

 

I suspect the issue for manufacturers, though, is offering a weathered finish isn't likely to signficiantly increase overall sales. The people like me who would buy a weathered finish are, on the whole, those who will simply buy the pristine model and weather it themelves if that's all that's available. I'm not necessarily particularly in the market for GWR wagons as that's a bit out of my area, but I'm not going to not buy a Midland wagon just because it isn't available weathered, if you see what I mean. So offering a weathered version tends to split, rather than extend, the market, and hence may not be financially justifiable. 

[GreenGiraffe22]

On 18/02/2023 at 15:32, McC said:

All the chaldrons are painted black?

 

I assume replaced planks is what accurascale have attempted here

 

https://www.accurascale.com/products/national-coal-board-chaldron-pack

[McC]

38 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

 

I assume replaced planks is what accurascale have attempted here

 

https://www.accurascale.com/products/national-coal-board-chaldron-pack

 

 as such. as always we just replicate the real thing as per the data we have. for these, the livery and painting is replicated in the model (bear in mind these are about the size of a thimble) :) 

Edited February 19, 2023 by McC

[Wickham Green too]

9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

But are the wagons fitted or 'blow throughs' (i.e. piped) ...

The Southern van, LNER fruit van and GWR 'MOGO' will definitely be vac-fits ..... the others less easy to identify from those snippets.

[Dunsignalling]

22 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

But are the wagons fitted or 'blow throughs' (i.e. piped) - that' could be something of a dangerous puzzle for those who needed to know and probanly didn't have time to look i under the wagon - not an easy tak at night when you're ina hurryr.  Most likely down to sloppy repairer or works procedure in my view as teh WR Instruction which I have quoted very clearly listed coaching stock anf d wagins together.

 

And there are pre-1960 dated colour photos showing standpipes in the correct colour red which in turn suggest to me that it was either misinterpretation or sloppy painting practice at some places.

 

Though, having once owned a "red" car, how some brake stand-pipes painted that colour appeared after a few years outdoors, was probably quite variable...

 

John

Edited February 20, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[RapidoCorbs]

A few livery drafts of the van range. I've tried to show a V14 and V16 variant of each.

Please note these are not final and are subject to change.

Also ignore the fact that they are all vac-fitted, this is the 'working' CAD and will be corrected.

 

Thoughts and notes welcome!

 

Notes from us (some from feedback on open wagons):

-GW grey shown in illustrations has been changed to match the real-life paint colour on the model

-Solebar plates are now grey rather than black

-BR-era vac pipes are red

 

25" GW

 

16" GW

Post-36 GW

 

 

BR Bauxite and Grey

BR Breakdown Train Red

*note that this is just the livery, it is unlikely we could tool for the additional lamp irons or steps

 

 

[hmrspaul]

W96873 wouldn't have a through pipe. They were very rare except on specialist wagons, and BR seemed to like them for some wagons such as Covhops. Also, through piped wagons were painted as if they had power brake by BR, not FSG but FSred. 

 

However, how any of us can claim to understand how wagons were painted is beyond me! But the discussion about unpainted opens has to be with caution, because the GWR open wagons had steel frames and therefore the instructions not to paint the body of open wagons doesn't include them - although as BR unfit new wagons were being built unpainted this instruction must have changed in the early 1950s.

 

The similar wagon to DW150066, 150063 when I photographed it on the SVR appears to have been untouched and the vac pipe is black. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrvans/e231e868e

 

Paul

PS I have checked the 1959 repaint instructions and for all sorts of stock the vacuum pipe of a power brake wagon is Freight stock red (bauxite to modellers) and white for through pipe. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by hmrspaul

[BenL]

The GW versions are looking good to me @RapidoCorbsbut are there no plans for some wartime/postwar GW versions?

[gwrrob]

2 hours ago, BenL said:

but are there no plans for some wartime/postwar GW versions?

 

Some with grey rooves would fit the bill nicely. 😉

[SteamingWales]

I'll take the BR Breakdown version please. Assuming this is the wagon that was mentioned earlier in the thread as being at Shrewsbury?

[41516]

21 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

The Southern van, LNER fruit van and GWR 'MOGO' will definitely be vac-fits ..... the others less easy to identify from those snippets.

 

All to the best of my knowledge fitted from built here - I excluded any obvious white piped wagons to keep it fully fitted only. Snippets so I didn't have to try and re-hunt down all sources/full photos to attribute for copyright.

 

L-R

BR 1/204 B751657

LNER Diag 116

SR van diag 1458?

LNER Fruit Diag 187 E285093

BR Iron ore hopper 1/182

 

 

7 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Though, having once owned a "red" car, how some brake stand-pipes painted that colour appeared after a few years outdoors, was probably quite variable...

 

Especially true for the swan necks between paint fade and filth.

 

 

GWR Mogo G31 W123983

B Class tank Esso 3555

BR 1/039 Hybar

BR 1/506 B952900 (vac fitted from lot 2741)

BR 1/208 van

 

6 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

PS I have checked the 1959 repaint instructions and for all sorts of stock the vacuum pipe of a power brake wagon is Freight stock red (bauxite to modellers) and white for through pipe. 

 

and back to

 

On 17/02/2023 at 12:18, The Stationmaster said:

Note re source for the above. Internal letter from the WR -

Operating Superiuntendents Office, Rolling Stock Section, dated 21 April 1952 

'It was recently decided by the railway Executiove ...   ...   the standpipes of fully fitted coaching and freight stock  ...   ... should be as follows -

 

Fully fitted coaching and freight stock - standpipe to be painted red ... ...

 

What shade of red would sir require?

 

I can only add I found it very difficult to find a steam era photo with a bright red pipe, the closest I found in my (admittedly limited) search of probably 1000 saved images (and mostly B/W) was this one from 53A models on Flickr (linked as they tend to request not to share images)- the brake van centre of frame - albeit post steam in 1969.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by 41516

[57xx]

11 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

W96873 wouldn't have a through pipe. They were very rare except on specialist wagons, and BR seemed to like them for some wagons such as Covhops. Also, through piped wagons were painted as if they had power brake by BR, not FSG but FSred. 

 

I think Corbs has just used the same CAD drawing to illustrate both fitted and non-fitted. Notice the vac cylinder is also "white" - e.g. it's not white, it's just an unfilled in out line and not illustrative of what is on that actual unfitted wagon, same as with the GW liveries.

[Dunsignalling]

 

Following on from the photos a couple of posts back, was there a BR policy regarding the painting of headstocks, i.e., body colour (as in most of the pics) vs. black, or was it left to individual wagon shops? 

 

John

Edited February 21, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Wickham Green too]

Clearly easier to do headstocks the same colour .......... and more so on a model !

[Dunsignalling]

24 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Clearly easier to do headstocks the same colour .......... and more so on a model !

Certainly on a kit-built wagon, but most RTR goes the other way!

[RapidoCorbs]

Sorry if it was not clear - the only CAD outline I currently have set up is the V14 version, we are awaiting a few tweaks to make the V16 one available.

 

Note that the pictured wagons are not the full range which is yet to be confirmed, but I hope they serve as a sample and a way for people to feed back (as we really want to get these to be as good as we can).

[hmrspaul]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Following on from the photos a couple of posts back, was there a BR policy regarding the painting of headstocks, i.e., body colour (as in most of the pics) vs. black, or was it left to individual wagon shops? 

 

John

I have no evidence that BR ever distinguished the headstock from the remainder of the (under)frame. They should be lacquer black. But, down the years there is plenty of evidence that headstocks and solebars could be painted in body colour by BR. Well copied for example by Bachmann for some of their BR mineral wagons - even mid 1970s rebuilds. It is why I've refused to have anything to do with a book on BR liveries as there would be too many comments that it was incorrect whatever was written. 

 

Paul

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, 41516 said:

 

All to the best of my knowledge fitted from built here - I excluded any obvious white piped wagons to keep it fully fitted only. Snippets so I didn't have to try and re-hunt down all sources/full photos to attribute for copyright.

 

L-R

BR 1/204 B751657

LNER Diag 116

SR van diag 1458?

LNER Fruit Diag 187 E285093

BR Iron ore hopper 1/182

 

 

 

Especially true for the swan necks between paint fade and filth.

 

 

GWR Mogo G31 W123983

B Class tank Esso 3555

BR 1/039 Hybar

BR 1/506 B952900 (vac fitted from lot 2741)

BR 1/208 van

 

 

and back to

 

 

What shade of red would sir require?

 

I can only add I found it very difficult to find a steam era photo with a bright red pipe, the closest I found in my (admittedly limited) search of probably 1000 saved images (and mostly B/W) was this one from 53A models on Flickr (linked as they tend to request not to share images)- the brake van centre of frame - albeit post steam in 1969.

 

 

The usual shade of red used on countless vac pipe stands and on air brake wagons.  BTW having seen, up close and personal, large numbers of fitted wagons  including dozen of tank cars, over the years I only saw them with red 0r whitevac pipe standpipes.  At various times I either had to very closely examine, and in several cases re-rail fitted wagons - including a Hyfit and when you're working out the best order in which to remove the buffers without kiloing anyone you do get very close to the vac pipe so very definitely a bauxite body, and it had the usual 'real' red standpipe - same colour as on coaching stock.

 

As I regyl ularly visited a works reairing wagons in the early 1970s I saw plenty of ex-works wagons plus we had a nearby works building anbd repairing RTCs (plus over a hundred in the yard waiting repair) and all the fitted ones had red pipes.  And definitely red, not freight stock bauxite - in facy I cab;t even remember seeing any in that colour except possibly one or two in spray painting days when they had been oversprayed..

 

The low ones tended to get very dirty and it was often difficult to see the original but plenty of them were still very clearly red - particualrly when fres h out of shops,

 

Sorry but I was only a railway operator/operating manager involved in these things in marshalling yards and elsewhere and needing to be able, like my staff, y to distinguish a fitted wagon from a blow through in particular.  Or maybe the WR was still doing its own thing and sticking to theh original Instruction.

[41516]

Finding bright red pipes from the 1970s onwards is indisputable, absolutely no problem there but that's not the period I've been looking at, nor the period for the wagon which kicked this off. 

 

Looking at colour photos, there appears to be a change post steam where the colour definatively changes to a bright red as distinct from Freight Stock Red.

 

On 20/02/2023 at 11:18, hmrspaul said:

PS I have checked the 1959 repaint instructions and for all sorts of stock the vacuum pipe of a power brake wagon is Freight stock red (bauxite to modellers) and white for through pipe. 

@hmrspaul has also previously quoted an instruction before from 1969 with 'enamel red' as opposed to FSR ( Could you provide the source the 1969 instructions please Paul?)  

 

If this was the change it would be the simplest explanation why steam era pipes seem to be FSR and then a bright red is near-universal from the 1970s onwards.  Being a safety issue would also help explain the rapid change, as you've explained before.

 

1 hour ago, hmrspaul said:

It is why I've refused to have anything to do with a book on BR liveries as there would be too many comments that it was incorrect whatever was written. 

 

20 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Or maybe the WR was still doing its own thing and sticking to theh original Instruction.

 

Or both of these!