GWR O11/15 Opens and V14/16 Vans - order book now open!

[Miss Prism]

2 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

Black background on plates - do you think these would have been mostly grey?

 

Instinctively, I want to say definitely yes (like everything else on a GW wagon), but I will look through the Bible tomorrow night when I get home.

 

[RapidoCorbs]

I was skimming through it and it does describe the plates but not so much on the colour of them (so far but will keep looking).

 

One other thing that needs adding to the above are a few more 'Non Common User' plates to the 16" and small lettering O15s. These should be present in the next draft.

[NHY 581]

Looking at these wagons, and mindful of those GW wagons already delivered and on their way.......I can't help but wonder if we "need" an earlier brake van....an AA16 perhaps ? 

 

Not essential though as many, like myself, will be using these wagons in scenarios other than Great Western based projects. 

 

Rob. 

 

 

[41516]

12 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

BR Bauxite

 

Do you have a rough date for when this is supposed to represent?  Post 1952 the brake pipe should be painted freight red (bauxite) and only going to red enamel in the late 1960s, when I would expect the wagon to be out of service.

 

Previous details discussed previously on the subject:

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

22 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I guess, though, it's more likely a common user vehicle would be used for cross-border traffic if there was a choice available.

 

Non common user wagons were generally specials of one sort or another - e.g. meat vans. So if the consignment is, say, sides of beef from cattle slaughtered in Devon to a wholesale butcher in Sheffield, then perforce a GWR non common user vehicle would be used to convey it via Banbury to Sheffield (GC)*. So, no bar to non common user wagons appearing off-system; it's just that the old rules about sending them home pronto still applied.

 

*Whether this example is realistic in terms of meat distribution practices up to WW2 I don't know but I suspect the Sheffield butcher would have sourced his supplies more locally. The example is just to illustrate the principle.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Compound2632

[RapidoCorbs]

6 minutes ago, 41516 said:

 

Do you have a rough date for when this is supposed to represent?  Post 1952 the brake pipe should be painted freight red (bauxite) and only going to red enamel in the late 1960s, when I would expect the wagon to be out of service.

 

Previous details discussed previously on the subject:

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, very good, thank you - a misreading of freight red as red on my part, will amend :)

 

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Non common user wagons were generally specials of one sort or another - e.g. meat vans. ...

... but could be other things like 20T mineral wagons, for instance, which would be as appropriate for a load of coal as, say, a pair of ten tonners ( Though, of course, the latter would more likely be Private Owners so not Common User either ! ).

 

Anyway, I hope you're example isn't realistic and that nobody ever even dreamt of sending a consignment of meat from Devon to Sheffield in a non-refrigerated non-vacuum-fitted wagon ......... it would have been well hung by the time it got there ! ☹️

[Aire Head]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Non common user wagons were generally specials of one sort or another

 

Vacuum braked merchandise vehicles were non common user until the late 1930s too.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

Vacuum braked merchandise vehicles were non common user until the late 1930s too.

 

Well, they were specials too, even if increasingly common, for a working definition of a special wagon as one that was not an ordinary hand brake-only open goods or mineral wagon, covered goods wagon, timber truck, or cattle wagon. The "special wagon" category in the Board of Trade / Ministry of Transport returns (from 1913 onwards) was rather more restrictive but I think a return had also to be made of the number of wagons fitted with automatic brakes. 

[RapidoCorbs]

In the Atkins book, it infers that most of the non-vac stock was common user post-grouping, but in general the vac stock wore NCU plates. Imagine some of these would have been removed in wartime? Certainly our lone O15 photo in post-36 livery had no NCU plate.

[The Stationmaster]

I've never seen any reference to wagon plates having rger rganb a bkack backround but I wouldb;t be surprised if they were grey at eome point in GWR days when everything els was grey on a wagon.  Is it perhaps that the rectangular plates were at some time grey while the oval plates were black..  But whichever the colour difference between grey and black should show on a monotone photo and there is definitely one official photo indicating that a rectangular plate was grey. 

 

Presumably the change to oval plates was to come onto line with wider practice, possibly an RCH standard?  There are plenty of oval GWR wagon plates in existence and the change to them could no doubt be easily dated by matching running numbers to works lot numbers.

 

Incidentally I'm surprised that there does not appear to be a plate on the solebar of the BR vacuum braked livery wago (one which I will be ordering as it happens as the plates were the ultimate decider when it came to identifying the running number of a wagon.    Incidentally variations in painted number from one side of a wagon to the other were far from unknown, but variations from side-to-side in the respect of the plated number were very rare although it did happen occasionally (although I've never heard of it on a GW wagon).

 

BTW are you sure that the white star on the solebar of the bauxite painted wagon and the fitted wagon in GW livery is in the right place?  Whie it deends on the design of teh cylinder the cords tended to be to one side or other of the cylinder.

[Aire Head]

23 minutes ago, RapidoCorbs said:

In the Atkins book, it infers that most of the non-vac stock was common user post-grouping, but in general the vac stock wore NCU plates. Imagine some of these would have been removed in wartime? Certainly our lone O15 photo in post-36 livery had no NCU plate.

 

Before the war VB stock was added to the common user pool. Can't remember the exact year (1937/8?) but that would be why the NCU plate was no longer present

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

 

Ah, very good, thank you - a misreading of freight red as red on my part, will amend :)

 

I hope you don't.   After the change of the colours in 1952  the official colour for the standpipe of a braked vehicle was red, irrespective of the body colour(see note below regarding the source of this official information).   That was the only way to quickly identify a fully fitted vehicle when bagging up the vacuum bags (aka pipes) and when checking for braked requirements.

 

Note re source for the above. Internal letter from the WR -

Operating Superiuntendents Office, Rolling Stock Section, dated 21 April 1952 

'It was recently decided by the railway Executiove ...   ...   the standpipes of fully fitted coaching and freight stock  ...   ... should be as follows -

 

Fully fitted coaching and freight stock - standpipe to be painted red ... ...

 

This instruction is now be'ng implemented as the vehicles pass through Swindon shops  ...   ...'

 

It then goes on to state that a suitable amendment would be published in the General Appendix - that amendment was published, dated September 1954,  in Supplement No 30 to the GWR General Appendix. (it had probably been published by Notice prior to then but I have no record of that.

[Miss Prism]

40 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Presumably the change to oval plates was to come onto line with wider practice, possibly an RCH standard?

 

Yes. For GWR wagons manufactured with RCH fittings after 1922, the solebar numberplate became the standard RCH 'D' shape.

 

[RapidoCorbs]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

BTW are you sure that the white star on the solebar of the bauxite painted wagon and the fitted wagon in GW livery is in the right place?  Whie it deends on the design of teh cylinder the cords tended to be to one side or other of the cylinder.

 

Not 100% certain, no. I've tried to base it on the location of the star on the V14s (although these are not always consistent) for which I have more photos to hand.

On this O15 photo I thought the white blob (see red arrow) might have been the star between the two V-hanger rivets. 

 

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I hope you don't.   After the change of the colours in 1952  the official colour for the standpipe of a braked vehicle was red, irrespective of the body colour(see note below regarding the source of this official information).   That was the only way to quickly identify a fully fitted vehicle when bagging up the vacuum bags (aka pipes) and when checking for braked requirements.

 

Note re source for the above. Internal letter from the WR -

Operating Superiuntendents Office, Rolling Stock Section, dated 21 April 1952 

'It was recently decided by the railway Executiove ...   ...   the standpipes of fully fitted coaching and freight stock  ...   ... should be as follows -

 

Fully fitted coaching and freight stock - standpipe to be painted red ... ...

 

This instruction is now be'ng implemented as the vehicles pass through Swindon shops  ...   ...'

 

It then goes on to state that a suitable amendment would be published in the General Appendix - that amendment was published, dated September 1954,  in Supplement No 30 to the GWR General Appendix. (it had probably been published by Notice prior to then but I have no record of that.

 

So this is where I am slightly stuck as does it mean 'freight red' (bauxite) or enamel red? If the latter then does that make the later notice of enamel red a bit strange?



Ref: numberplates - I consulted with the team and their thoughts are grey background is correct and that the preservation black backgrounds are 'prettified' versions, so these will likely change to grey in the next iteration.

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by RapidoCorbs

[Siberian Snooper]

The white star on the solebars, denotes where the string to release the vacuum, in the vacuum cylinder is attached.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

6 minutes ago, RapidoCorbs said:

 

Not 100% certain, no. I've tried to base it on the location of the star on the V14s (although these are not always consistent) for which I have more photos to hand.

On this O15 photo I thought the white blob (see red arrow) might have been the star between the two V-hanger rivets. 

 

 

So this is where I am slightly stuck as does it mean 'freight red' (bauxite) or enamel red? If the latter then does that make the later notice of enamel red a bit strange?



Ref: numberplates - I consulted with the team and their thoughts are grey background is correct and that the preservation black backgrounds are 'prettified' versions, so these will likely change to grey in the next iteration.

 

As far as the standpipes are concerned it meant red - after all it refers to both passenger and freight vehicles in the same sentence.  The same colour would have to be used consistently otherwise the Instruction becomes  meaningless and we are talking about a safety issue - don't forget that freight stock could be attached to passenger trains in various circumstances and in any case not all fitted freight vehicles were painted in bauxite.

 

In my railway career I saw plenty of freight vehicles that were long out of shops in my career and I never saw the standpipe on a fitted wagon painted other than the standard red including many where paint had flaked off to reveal the previous paint..  if somebody is able to produce official written evidence to contradict the official WR Instruction which I have  provided in respect of vacuum brake standpipes I look forward to seeing it.  Otherwise I might as well not bother to research anything or offer the information to assist modellers and manufacturers.  And incidentally I can find no evidence at all in any operational publications - and they were the people who needed the information for safety purposes - running from the mid 1930s to the 1980s that the colour of the vacuum brake standpipes on wagons was ever altered in 1960 or any other year before or after the 1952 RE decision. 

 

I'm not sure about that item on that solebar as it doesn't look star shaped to me.  The marking was either applied as a star shaped cast item fixed to the solebar and painted white or as the white star painted directly onto the solebar.   On older wagons the cord ran from it to the release valve on the cylinder and from there to the solebar on the other side of the vehicle while on some more (i.e. BR built)  modern vacuum fitted freight stock it was arranged differently and was opposite the cylinder.  There are instances on older GWR fitted vehicles of the string and the marking (the latter was often indistinct in photos) being to one side or other of the cylinder; on a GWR vacuum cylinder the release valve was on the side of the cylinder with the operating lever arranged vertically.

[RapidoCorbs]

24 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

As far as the standpipes are concerned it meant red - after all it refers to both passenger and freight vehicles in the same sentence.  The same colour would have to be used consistently otherwise the Instruction becomes  meaningless and we are talking about a safety issue - don't forget that freight stock could be attached to passenger trains in various circumstances and in any case not all fitted freight vehicles were painted in bauxite.

 

In my railway career I saw plenty of freight vehicles that were long out of shops in my career and I never saw the standpipe on a fitted wagon painted other than the standard red including many where paint had flaked off to reveal the previous paint..  if somebody is able to produce official written evidence to contradict the official WR Instruction which I have  provided in respect of vacuum brake standpipes I look forward to seeing it.  Otherwise I might as well not bother to research anything or offer the information to assist modellers and manufacturers.  And incidentally I can find no evidence at all in any operational publications - and they were the people who needed the information for safety purposes - running from the mid 1930s to the 1980s that the colour of the vacuum brake standpipes on wagons was ever altered in 1960 or any other year before or after the 1952 RE decision. 

 

I'm not sure about that item on that solebar as it doesn't look star shaped to me.  The marking was either applied as a star shaped cast item fixed to the solebar and painted white or as the white star painted directly onto the solebar.   On older wagons the cord ran from it to the release valve on the cylinder and from there to the solebar on the other side of the vehicle while on some more (i.e. BR built)  modern vacuum fitted freight stock it was arranged differently and was opposite the cylinder.  There are instances on older GWR fitted vehicles of the string and the marking (the latter was often indistinct in photos) being to one side or other of the cylinder; on a GWR vacuum cylinder the release valve was on the side of the cylinder with the operating lever arranged vertically.

 

Excellent, then we get a nice splash of colour on the end of the wagon, which pleases me as I like colourful things 😄 Thank you for your help with this.

 

I think what might be best for the white star on the O15s is to directly mimic what I find on the V14 reference pics as the chassis is so similar, it would make sense to mount the release chords in similar places. Am part way through the vans currently so should be able to do those at the same time.

Just need to finish working on the [REDACTED] and tidy up some bits on the [REDACTED] first 😉

[County of Yorkshire]

Some WW2 wagons in distressed condition would be good to see. Large and small GW lettering with unpainted replacement planks etc. 

 

CoY

[Dunsignalling]

23 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

 

Excellent, then we get a nice splash of colour on the end of the wagon, which pleases me as I like colourful things 😄 Thank you for your help with this.

 

I think what might be best for the white star on the O15s is to directly mimic what I find on the V14 reference pics as the chassis is so similar, it would make sense to mount the release chords in similar places. Am part way through the vans currently so should be able to do those at the same time.

Just need to finish working on the [REDACTED] and tidy up some bits on the [REDACTED] first 😉

 

How soon will we be able to order a [REDACTED] or two? 😁

[GreenGiraffe22]

1 hour ago, County of Yorkshire said:

Some WW2 wagons in distressed condition would be good to see. Large and small GW lettering with unpainted replacement planks etc. 

 

CoY

 

I always think unpainted planks on 00 models just look like unfinished 00 models, looks awful on the Accurascale Chaldrons, not convinced by Bachmann's efforts either. 

[McC]

33 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

 

I always think unpainted planks on 00 models just look like unfinished 00 models, looks awful on the Accurascale Chaldrons, not convinced by Bachmann's efforts either. 

All the chaldrons are painted black?

[MarkSG]

2 hours ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

 

I always think unpainted planks on 00 models just look like unfinished 00 models, looks awful on the Accurascale Chaldrons, not convinced by Bachmann's efforts either. 

 

The Bachmann ones benefit from a light once over with some weathering powder or dilute "dirt" paint. They way I look at it, they've done the hard work of printing a suitably distressed "livery", and all I need to do is add the final touches.

 

I'd typically do that with a pristine livery model anyway, so it's not a huge amount of extra work to also do it on top of factory weathering. And by applying it to both pristine and factory weathered models I get a good range of weathered effects, from "just a bit dirty" through "pretty manky" to "as absolutely grotty as it gets". Which is probably reasonably realistic.

 

That said, I would like to see Rapido's take on factory weathering. And what I'd really like to see are some wagons in early BR condition with very faded, but still visible, Big Four lettering on the sides and just a BR patch in the corner, as opposed to models of wagons that have been given a full repaint into BR colours. Bachmann have done that with their weathered ex-PO wagons, but I've not yet seen it done to a company livery.

[The Johnster]

 My approach is similar, nothing is quite the same as it was when I first took it out of the box and I am an accomplished and enthusiastic ruiner of resale values.  Weathering ranges from a light wash over to take the 'new' off to 1950s XPO minerals that it is impossible to discern the livery of under the coal dust; this is clearly evidenced on photos from the period.  Bare wood is a bit of an odd one, because it does not weather in the same way as a painted surface; rather the basic colour changes as the wood itself weathers and decays from a light creamy-yellow to an almost silverish grey.  This brings a lot of variables into play.  Does a wooden wagon retain the yellow/creamy cast if it gets dirty because the dirt protects the wood, or does it degrade to the light silver/grey anyway. 

 

On a period monochrome photograph, how certain can you be that the grey unfitted dirty 5-planker is painted grey or unpainted wood?  I am of the impression that the factory weathered 7-plankers that feature replaced planks for this period, like the MOY, have the wood too dark and yellow, but I am not able to state outright that this is incorrect.  Dapol, however, do 7mm RTR scale 5-plankers in early BR unpainted livery which look pretty much like I think they should look for new wagons, but if one weathered one of these without altering the base colour, one might be on wobbly ground.  All the same, I wish someone would do one in 4mm RTR

 

Unpainted unfitte wooden opens and replacement planks for painted ones and filthy 7-plankers for the 1948-58 period were not uncommon, yet nobody has as yet produced an RTR open from this very popular period in unpainted wood livery.  Like MarkSG, I would like to see this done because it is a surprisingly difficult thing to get right off one's own bat.   Hundreds of unfitted open wagons, both of the remaining big four orders which took until the mid 50s to complete and the early BR standard unfitted wagons, were unpainted wood, though of course the strapping and cornerplates were painted grey, and very rapidly rusted. 

 

Many of these, being of recent build, were selected for refurbishment with vacuum brakes, and repainted in bauxite livery, this process probably starting at the time of the first overhauls of the first-built 1948 wagons.  But unpainted wagons could be commonly seen in traffic into the 60s, though closures and mass withdrawals made them thin on the ground after 1963, any that weren't refurbished being scrapped around that time, some after very short periods in service.

 

Bachmann's weathered MOY 7-plank mineral features replacement unpainted wooden planks, and this was common in practice, especially the top planks which were prone to loading and unloading damage and the bottom planks which rotted in the acidic water runoff.  But replacements were not always done with fresh wood, as most of them were carried out at collieries or by C&W staff at yards with whatever was handy to keep the wagon in revenue, especially if it was loaded as unloading and reloading the coal into an empty was a lot of faff.  Planks from other wagons that had been failed in service, and in the remains of a completely different XPO's livery, and with no guarantee of the them being the right way round or the right way up, could be and were pressed into service to keep a wagon in traffic, as it was an easy replacement job that only took a few minutes to complete. 

 

Watching a train of loaded wooden XPO 7-plank minerals from a head-on perspective was worrying at anything more than about 10mph, as not only had the sides inevitably bowed outwards under pressure from the load, they would move inwards and outwards as well, wiggly wagons...  I've bowed some of mine out,  but never seen the wigglewaggle modelled; nobody'd believe it anyway!

Edited February 19, 2023 by The Johnster

[RapidoCorbs]

9 hours ago, County of Yorkshire said:

Some WW2 wagons in distressed condition would be good to see. Large and small GW lettering with unpainted replacement planks etc. 

 

CoY

It's an interesting point and something that we have discussed. There was one vehicle in another range that we considered but decided against because it very clearly had old and new markings and without a convincing 'distressed' effect, there is a risk that people take a glance and assume it is wrong/a mistake. But factory weathering is very divisive, there is only one thing in our current range that has it (which is Dan's House), but that is an exception because it's fake film weathering and IRL it never was 'ex-works' because it's just a prop.

The wartime O11 draft may end up reverting to an ex-works look without the faded patches (where it's clearly had planks swapped from another wagon), but likewise it may having these represented by an ever-so-slightly lighter shade of grey. TBC...