A plea for organisers - please fully describe the layouts !

[PaulRhB]

6 minutes ago, jonhall said:

I think the other side to this is that actually a lot of Exhibitions are precarious at the moment, and need your support. If you want to have a choice in future years, then they need your support this year - if a hypothetical 2024 show is cancelled because insufficient people come to the 2023 show, then the likelihood of the '24 show having something to interest you enough to leave the house, becomes a bit of a moot point.

 

Jon

I agree and half an hour listing the layouts and sending the list to Ukmodelshops is an easy way to grab people’s attention. I’ve made an effort to support local shows, even travelled two hours via diversions for one last weekend, and thoroughly enjoyed each one. 

[C126]

It has just occured to me with my deranged Cataloguer/Librarian's hat on that what we need is a central internet data-base of every layout that each exhibition can use, by providing just a simple U.R.L. to in their web-pages.

 

I will get my hat and coat...

[rob D2]

23 minutes ago, jonhall said:

I think the other side to this is that actually a lot of Exhibitions are precarious at the moment, and need your support. If you want to have a choice in future years, then they need your support this year - if a hypothetical 2024 show is cancelled because insufficient people come to the 2023 show, then the likelihood of the '24 show having something to interest you enough to leave the house, becomes a bit of a moot point.

 

Jon

So I should spend money to go to a show with nothing to interest me, so that show exists in 2024 , with probably nothing to interest me again. 
 

Doesn’t seem a very wise investment ?

 

 

[jonhall]

27 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

So I should spend money to go to a show with nothing to interest me, so that show exists in 2024 , with probably nothing to interest me again. 
 

Doesn’t seem a very wise investment ?

 

 

 

But the '24 show might have a dozen different things to interest you - but only if it happens, and whilst your £5-10 on the door  wont individually make the decider,  100 people like you leave a £500-1000 hole in the budget might well stop a club from holding the next one.

 

If you (and others) take the selfish view and only attend shows that interest you, then there is some likelyhood that there will be fewer shows, those shows that survive may be further away than the ones that fail, and therefore your costs to travel to the survivors goes up, they put the entrance fee up to cover the costs with fewer visitors,  and in turn you attend fewer because the cost/reward ratio goes down. 

 

There are lots of reasons that clubs are giving up shows, but a big one is the risk/reward ratio is terrible. 

 

As a (not very good) analogy, do you pay your taxes because you know will need an Ambulance this year? or because you want an Ambulance to be available when you do need one*

 

Jon

*who has already required both a fire engine and an ambulance on separate occasions in 2023, and who's 84 year old dad with a suspected stroke would have had to wait 2 hours if I hadn't been able to take him to A&E myself.

[Oldddudders]

42 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

Doesn’t seem a very wise investment ?

Investment? Is every pound you spend necessarily to be thus? Supporting exhibitions, our hobby's glamorous public window, should be an aim for all those who can afford it. 

[rob D2]

I seem to have entered a parallel universe .

 

I start a thread asking if it's possible to get more info on layouts before spending money to go see them .

 

But apparently I'm selfish and unsupportive ,

please leave my thread to what was intended or take your zeal someplace else !

Edited February 9, 2023 by rob D2

[Huw Griffiths]

7 minutes ago, jonhall said:

If you (and others) take the selfish view and only attend shows that interest you, ...

 

Excuse me?

 

As I've previously mentioned, getting to just about any show involves me in a lot of time, effort and cost.

 

I've attended lots of events over the years - including "village hall" shows and "open days" / "members' days". However, there are limits to how much time and money I can throw at events so, sometimes, I need to "make a call".

 

 

7 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Investment? Is every pound you spend necessarily to be thus? Supporting exhibitions, our hobby's glamorous public window, should be an aim for all those who can afford it. 

 

Over the years, I haven't just supported exhibitions as a "punter". I've also helped to man society stands - I'll do more in future - and this isn't always exciting. It also costs money to get to these events (you can often forget about expenses).

 

There have been a number of shows at which the organisers etc have been genuinely surprised at just how far I've been prepared to travel - even more surprised when they've learnt this travel has been by public transport.

 

I make the effort to get to events. I also make the effort to get on with the people running them. If it's obvious that my efforts won't be repaid - even in part - then a certain "call" becomes inevitable. Unfortunate - but unavoidable.

 

Like anyone else, I need to draw the line somewhere.

 

I certainly don't need lectures about making the effort to attend as many shows as possible.

 

Selfish? Definitely not. Not even close, in fact.

 

 

[Nile]

Something to bare in mind, according to the recent survey on here most members attend no more than 2 shows a year.

Survey results here:

 

 

[steve1]

I’m more than happy to supply words and images to exhibition managers in advance of any show to which my layouts are invited.

 

However, I don’t do Faceache or have a website, Youtube channel or blog, the only place you’ll find my layouts online is here on RMWeb, 😉 

 

steve

[jonhall]

1 hour ago, rob D2 said:

I seem to have entered a parallel universe .

 

I start a thread asking if it's possible to get more info on layouts before spending money to go see them .

 

But apparently I'm selfish and unsupportive ,

please leave my thread to what was intended or take your zeal someplace else !

 

Or to put it another way you start a thread criticising volunteer exhibition organisers for not doing their job the way you think it should be done, and then tell them that even if they do, you might well use that information to their disadvantage (unless they happen to be a mind reader and know what you want and that sufficient others have the same interests as you) , so they might be wasting their time and costing their club a significant amount of money.  That doesn't seem to be the most promising way of getting them on side either?

 

Jon

 

 

[HillsideDepot]

20 minutes ago, jonhall said:

 

Or to put it another way you start a thread criticising volunteer exhibition organisers for not doing their job the way you think it should be done, and then tell them that even if they do, you might well use that information to their disadvantage (unless they happen to be a mind reader and know what you want and that sufficient others have the same interests as you) , so they might be wasting their time and costing their club a significant amount of money.  That doesn't seem to be the most promising way of getting them on side either?

 

Jon

 

 

Or put it another way, your want my entrance fee but can't be bothered to advertise your wares? You will though, judge me as narrow minded because I might make a choice of era, location, gauge interest which doesn't align with your selection of layouts? Fair enough, I'll stay at home and play with my own train set then.

I can't believe how negative some on here, who I take to be exhibition managers, have been over a reasonable request. Don't mind me though, I'll still be picking and choosing my attendance, or not, based on information available for each event. And when I do go to a show I will continue to look at every layout whatever size, age or colour the trains are. Only its very unlikely that I'll be at any where just the overall number of layouts is advertised. 

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Sorry Jon, are you reading the same thread as me?

 

51 minutes ago, jonhall said:

Or to put it another way you start a thread criticising volunteer exhibition organisers for not doing their job the way you think it should be done...

 

Where was the criticism? I see it as an appeal for a little more information about layouts attending a show, put reasonably in a discussion forum. Most exhibitions already list the layout name and scale, why not a couple more words, such as '1980s Scotland' or 'Epoch 2 Germany'. Many do, but this is not an onerous request for chapter and verse (or trackplans as someone facetiously added here - don't go there, I recall another rather involved thread about that!).*

 

51 minutes ago, jonhall said:

you might well use that information to their disadvantage (unless they happen to be a mind reader and know what you want and that sufficient others have the same interests as you) , so they might be wasting their time and costing their club a significant amount of money.

 

Swings and roundabouts. Of course if there is a show you probably weren't attending, but then you see that have they have 5 Western region 1980s layouts attending, then they have actually gained. 

 

 

3 hours ago, jonhall said:

As a (not very good) analogy, do you pay your taxes because you know will need an Ambulance this year? or because you want an Ambulance to be available when you do need one*

Not quite - it's a terrible analogy and utterly misses the point. Those shows known for catering for a wide variety of interests will stand a much better chance of survival - those that don't won't. C'est la vie - I am not going to subsidise a show who's exhibits do not interest me, much like I will not go to a shop that sells things I don't want to buy. I like music, but if the concert program does not have the music I want to hear, I won't go to the concert.

 

I model overseas prototypes, so I won't really bother attending shows that have UK-only layout. I will look at and enjoy British layout at a general show, but I also want to see something that specifically interests me, so will target shows that have at least one overseas offering.

 

I am waiting for the barrage of criticism because I chose one manufacturer over another because they make models I am interested in. I don't buy Hornby offerings - why not? Because they don't make German epoch 4 models. That's my selfish choice denying them custom...

 

 

 

* I have organised small shows in the past - and this information is always included. 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Claude_Dreyfus
Can't type!

[rob D2]

46 minutes ago, jonhall said:

 

Or to put it another way you start a thread criticising volunteer exhibition organisers for not doing their job the way you think it should be done, and then tell them that even if they do, you might well use that information to their disadvantage (unless they happen to be a mind reader and know what you want and that sufficient others have the same interests as you) , so they might be wasting their time and costing their club a significant amount of money.  That doesn't seem to be the most promising way of getting them on side either?

 

Jon

 

 

Unbelievable.

Read my original post , it was hardly argumentative or inflammatory , just as I said “ help me to help you “, or in other words - I’ll go to more of them with extra info.

That you’ve chosen to turn it into an argument says more about you than me. 

[Free At Last]

3 hours ago, rob D2 said:

But apparently I'm selfish and unsupportive ,

I can beat that...  I'm selfish, unsupportive and Xenophobic.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Free At Last

[pete_mcfarlane]

54 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

Unbelievable.

Read my original post , it was hardly argumentative or inflammatory , just as I said “ help me to help you “, or in other words - I’ll go to more of them with extra info.

That you’ve chosen to turn it into an argument says more about you than me. 

Well I hope you've learned your lesson, and will no longer be making polite constructive suggestions...

[stivesnick]

I very much support the original question - I usually attend one exhibition a month as a way of having a day out and perhaps an opportunity to visit a new place. So yes I would like some idea on what to expect. A variety of layouts is what I am looking for. 

 

I have helped plan a number of exhibitions in the past, so I am slightly surprised that some exhibition managers would consider this extra work. I would hope that most managers would do this as a matter of course as a way of checking that they are attempting to get a variety of layouts. Therefore, producing and then seeing a list where each layout says "00  steam engine shed " should raise the alarm bells. 

 

Regards 

 

Nick 

 

 

[rab]

There are going to be a lot of spares and repairs models on Ebay

with all these toys being thrown out of the pram.

 

Perhaps it's time to agree to disagree  on this topic

and move on to more positive discussions.

[Huw Griffiths]

1 hour ago, stivesnick said:

Therefore, producing and then seeing a list where each layout says "00  steam engine shed " should raise the alarm bells.

 

For all we know, they might need some kettles to keep the tea pot topped up ... .

 

 

Seriously though, if I were an exhibition manager, I'd be keen to get repeat visitors - not just this year, but also next year and the year after. I'd be honest about what's on offer - also say if it's for a recognised good cause.

 

You'd be surprised how accommodating some visitors can be if faced with honesty.

 

You'd also be surprised how far news travels if a "non-event" gets misrepresented as "the greatest show on earth". Some potential visitors have good memories, too - I should know.

 

 

Some people here might have heard Mozart's "Die Leyerer" (which could be roughly translated along the lines of "The Hurdy-Gurdy Men"). It starts off with a big fanfare - then we get introduced to the "main event" and this droning sound - and the whole spectacle starts to sound more like a sad sideshow.

 

Of course, Mozart was a very intelligent guy - and rather skilled at wrapping up unpalatable (but honest) commentary and sometimes criticism to sound like good music. Most people have heard the last movement of "A Musical Joke" (aka the "Horse of the Year Show" theme), complete with loads of deliberately "wrong" notes - a wind-up at the expense of some of his mates (you've guessed it - other composers). The other movements are positively brutal, leading to some interesting speculation about which composer was being "sent up" when.

 

 

Anyway, a minority of shows I've attended have been rather like "Die Leyerer" - the big fanfare - then the realisation that there's nothing there but a pathetic sideshow. I've never gone to those shows again - but I might have, if the organisers had been more honest and treated me with something resembling respect.

 

 

If they'd done what one trader did a while back - run a small show for charity using whatever he could persuade local clubs and "lone wolf" modellers to bring - and been honest about it, I'd have made a point of being there (and again, if there was a show the following year). If I'd had a decent layout - or a usable demo - that would also have found its way there.

 

If people do stuff like that - basically set out to do the right thing in a sensible way - I'll go out of my way to back them and help them in any way I can. I certainly won't undermine them - I never have and I never will.

 

Whatever some people might like to pretend, I'm really one of the "good guys". (Deep down, I suspect that most of us are.)

 

Realise this - and don't muck me about - and you'll find I'm one of the most loyal friends you'll ever get. Treat me with contempt - and you'll realise you've made a big mistake - but by then it will be too late to do anything about it. (Somehow, I suspect this is true of most people here.)

 

 

What has this got to do with show websites? Well, it's really simple - just be honest with us!

 

Hardly Rocket science, is it?

 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Huw Griffiths

[big jim]

and then of course a layout may be described as ‘modern image’ and when you see it its a 1960s era set up, a whole new can of worms!

 

most shows ive attended im not really bothered whats there within reason, admittedly i wouldnt go to an N gauge specific or NMRA show as those have no interest to me at all however at a ‘normal’ show i’ll happily look at an N gauge steam terminus as much as id look at a modern day OO tail chaser or american layout, variety is the spice of life, , i just tend to gravitate back to the layouts i enjoy on my first reccy round, sometimes its nice to find something a little bit different from your normal area of interest 

 

one thing important in the layout list is how many will be on show so i can see if its worthwhile me attending if its going to be a trek, if im still not sure if its worth it then ill use the basic layout list and do a bit of research on line to see what the layout is all about, obviously some layouts dont have a direct on line presence but its becoming less and less as times goes on what with third parties posting pics, youtube vids etc, it normally doesnt take long to find something somewhere about a particular layout 

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by big jim

[BachelorBoy]

18 hours ago, jonhall said:

If you (and others) take the selfish view and only attend shows that interest you, then there is some likelyhood that there will be fewer shows,

 

Conversely, isn't it rather odd to expect people to go to shows they're not interested in? That doesn't sound like a winning strategy. 

 

EDIT: I mean, hobbies are supposed to be enjoyable.

Edited February 10, 2023 by BachelorBoy

[50030]

Totally agree with the original

post, is it too much for organisers to put the layout era next to the already shown layout name and scale on the forthcoming exhibition web pages, This weekends Doncaster show webpage is one example. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by 50030

[kipford]

Quote

is it too much for organisers to put the layout era next to the already shown layout name and scale on the forthcoming exhibition web pages

As someone who is involved with running an exhibition and do a lot of the online advertising including RMweb. It is a simple matter to include a brief explanation of what the layout is about and I consider it essential. 

[Jonboy]

For me personally there is a triangle between cost of getting there, entry fee and number of layout that decides whether I am going.
 

I personally wouldn’t read descriptions of every layout and decide on that but then I am simple easily pleased and will find details to interest me once I am there.

I therefore think that anything beyond a one line “oo gwr branch line terminus set in the 1930’s” would normally be wasted on me

[AY Mod]

6 hours ago, 50030 said:

This weekends Doncaster show webpage is one example. 

 

Yes, I have already responded to that.

 

6 hours ago, 50030 said:

is it too much for organisers to put the layout era next to the already shown layout name

 

He'll, there are some layout owners who don't know given some of the sights seen out there.

[Huw Griffiths]

7 hours ago, 50030 said:

Totally agree with the original post, is it too much for organisers to put the layout era next to the already shown layout name and scale on the forthcoming exhibition web pages

 

59 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

Hell, there are some layout owners who don't know given some of the sights seen out there.

 

I suspect you might be on to something there.