Gauge or Scale

[BR60103]

There is a convention among (some) American modellers that O Gauge refers to toy trains (Lionel e.g.) while O Scale is scale models.

I don't believe this applies to other sizes.

 

[Andy Hayter]

14 hours ago, Mark Laidlay said:

I'm coming to the UK from Australia for the York show then staying around 6 weeks and I feel a need to discuss this now so I don't annoy everyone when I get there.

Why is it UK modellers refer to product by gauge rather than scale?  4mm scale is the worst offender due to at least 3 standards/gauges being in place, 00, EM and P4.

I see all sorts of things advertised as "00 gauge" even if they won't be going on the track being a building or a motor car.

Why not just call these things "4mm Scale"?

It's all very good making it easy for beginners but they are very soon going to ask "what's the difference between gauge and scale?".

 

Coming from Australia, I would have thought the answer to that would be obvious.

 

I am lead to believe that you have 1:1 railways that when they came together in the middle of the country, were found, although to the same scale, to have been built to different gauges.   

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, sncf231e said:

Apparently in Australia the gauge/scale terminology is good

Up to a point, Lord Copper. We have, of course, three different main line gauges here and Lord knows how many narrow-gauge variations.

[kevinlms]

18 hours ago, Mark Laidlay said:

I'm coming to the UK from Australia for the York show then staying around 6 weeks and I feel a need to discuss this now so I don't annoy everyone when I get there.

Why is it UK modellers refer to product by gauge rather than scale?  4mm scale is the worst offender due to at least 3 standards/gauges being in place, 00, EM and P4.

I see all sorts of things advertised as "00 gauge" even if they won't be going on the track being a building or a motor car.

Why not just call these things "4mm Scale"?

It's all very good making it easy for beginners but they are very soon going to ask "what's the difference between gauge and scale?".

You are actually totally wrong in your example for Australia!

 

If you turn the question round to define prototype gauge for Australia, what do you end up with?

 

We have 5'3", 'standard' gauge, and 3'6" as 3 major gauges (sometimes 2 or more in the same location!). Largely broken up on the basis of state boundaries. Some exceptions were extensions of branch lines into southern NSW by Victoria. Largely because the towns so served were closer by rail to Melbourne than Sydney!

 

To answer your question simply.

Gauge is the distance between the rails, scale is the relationship to the prototype.

Hopefully, it applies universally, but often it doesn't! Some models have been known to be over wide, in relation to their height. This especially applies to the several versions of British HO by European manufacturers. For some reason, ALL ended up badly for the respective manufacturers!

[kevinlms]

11 hours ago, RichardT said:

Because the gauge was often seen as the most significant constant - it tells you what other models will run on the same track as you have.  
 

“N gauge” versus “N scale” is the most commonly-cited example: there’s no such thing as “N scale” despite that being the common usage in the USA.   Japanese N models are 1:150 scale, UK 1:148, US & European 1:160 - but they all run on 9mm gauge track, so N Gauge is the most applicable term (N for nine/neuf/neun/nove/nueve/negen/nio/ni - you get the idea).  
 

In 4mm scale 00, P4 and EM refer to the gauge, not the scale, so again “gauge” is used.

But I might equally well post a message saying “why do Australians refer to flip-flops as “thongs”?  It makes no sense - thongs are underwear.”  Different countries use different words for things, and that’s how it is.  Enjoy your trip to the York show - remember that the meals up here are called breakfast, dinner and tea, and Yorkshire pudding is not eaten for dessert…

RichardT

 

 

Didn't the 'N Gauge Society', insist that it be referred to as such and never the 'N Scale Society', in the model press. Just to prevent the confusion.

[DenysW]

8 hours ago, Mark Laidlay said:

Dinner is traditionally the midday meal.

Not universally agreed, with a class and geographical divide.

 

Dinner jackets are specific to the formal evening meal. Dinner Ladies make the midday meal happen in schools. Presumably nowadays Dinner Ladies of any gender.

[Mark Laidlay]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

You are actually totally wrong in your example for Australia!

 

 

No I'm not.

[Michael Hodgson]

10 hours ago, Mark Laidlay said:

They are the names used during my formative years.  Today I find it irritating when people refer to "Christmas Lunch"  Dinner is traditionally the midday meal.

Nonsense. 

Everybody sits down to Xmas Dinner at 3 o'clock and listens to the Monarch's speech, which was actually recorded while we were out doing the Xmas shopping.

 

By the way, you'll have a long wait for that white Xmas you're dreaming of down under.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Michael Hodgson

[RichardT]

1 hour ago, DenysW said:

Not universally agreed, with a class and geographical divide.

Universally agreed in Yorkshire and the North East. What are these other geographies of which you speak? 😳

 

Richard

 

PS I’m pretty sure that @Mark Laidlay knows what “gauge” and “scale” mean - I’d taken his email to be a semi-jokey complaint about the British habit of mixing the two up in casual conversation.  The same jokey complaint I have about “finescale” - no such thing: the scale is the scale. If you mean “fine standards” or “accurate to scale” then say so 😉.  Just trying to keep it light.

[RichardT]

15 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Nonsense. 

Everybody sits down to Xmas Dinner at 3 o'clock and listens to the Monarch's speech, which was actually recorded while we were out doing the Xmas shopping.

 

By the way, you'll have a long wait for that white Xmas you're dreaming of down under.

If you’ve been working hard at a manual job for five or six days a week, and have your proper Sunday lie-in, 3pm is the middle of the day…

 

But all of this pales into insignificance compared to the involuntary nervous twitch I get hearing people talk about a meal in the middle of the day called “larnch”.  Or, even worse, having their main meal in the evening and calling it “sapper”… (Or who think “high tea” is the same as “afternoon tea”.).
 

What was that Bernard Shaw said about any Englishman only having to open his mouth for another Englishman to despise him! 
 

I apologise again for not taking this thread as seriously as a model railway enthusiast should do. Think I’d better duck out now.

 

RichardT

Edited February 18, 2023 by RichardT

[F-UnitMad]

7 hours ago, BR60103 said:

There is a convention among (some) American modellers that O Gauge refers to toy trains (Lionel e.g.) while O Scale is scale models.

I don't believe this applies to other sizes.

 

Or more simply, the distinction between 3-rail and 2-rail in 1:48th scale. 

Some 3-rail models are to scale dimensions except for wheels & couplers, and can be converted to 2-rail, but the distinction of "O Gauge" & "O Scale" is a quick 'shorthand' way of distinguishing which track the models run on.

It's only used for U.S. O as 3-rail is so dominant over 2-rail.

 

10 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Nonsense. 

Everybody sits down to Xmas Dinner at 3 o'clock and listens to the Monarch's speech, which was actually recorded while we were out doing the Xmas shopping.

NOT "Everyone", no. Not in my house, where I/we have never watched the Monarch's speech - not even the 'highlights' on the News.

I have not been thrown in the Tower of London for high treason. Yet.....

 

 

[Mark Laidlay]

21 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Nonsense. 

Everybody sits down to Xmas Dinner at 3 o'clock and listens to the Monarch's speech, which was actually recorded while we were out doing the Xmas shopping.

 

By the way, you'll have a long wait for that white Xmas you're dreaming of down under.

I think you have your lost colonies confused, it as a Bing Crosby who dreamt of a white Christmas, he lived in the USA.

[F-UnitMad]

47 minutes ago, Mark Laidlay said:

No I'm not.

🤣🤣 you did realise you are being told you are wrong by a fellow Australian? 🙄😝

 

I recall a large Australian-outline & built layout in Continental Modeller some years ago that had both standard & broad gauge lines/prototypes on it, but all using 16.5mm gauge track, clearly wrong for the broad gauge.

So don't come here on a high horse complaining about Poms saying "OO gauge" for items where gauge is irrelevant!!! 😉🙂

[Mark Laidlay]

2 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

🤣🤣 you did realise you are being told you are wrong by a fellow Australian? 🙄😝

 

I recall a large Australian-outline & built layout in Continental Modeller some years ago that had both standard & broad gauge lines/prototypes on it, but all using 16.5mm gauge track, clearly wrong for the broad gauge.

So don't come here on a high horse complaining about Poms saying "OO gauge" for items where gauge is irrelevant!!! 😉🙂

My re-collection is of a layout called Broadford, the BG was 18.2mm.  While many people model HO BG using 16.5mm gauge is a problem it's not the same issue as confusing people by calling a building "00 Gauge".

 I do know where Launching Place is.

[Mark Laidlay]

46 minutes ago, RichardT said:

The same jokey complaint I have about “finescale” - no such thing: the scale is the scale. If you mean “fine standards” or “accurate to scale” then say so 😉.  Just trying to keep it light.

Or people thinking they are modelling "finescale" because Peco told them when they bought code 75 track, it's still "univeral" standards!

[The White Rabbit]

4 minutes ago, Mark Laidlay said:

Or people thinking they are modelling "finescale" because Peco told them when they bought code 75 track, it's still "universal" standards!

 

Just to throw my tuppence into the linguistic machinery, I usually replied, "Finescale OO" when asked what scale/gauge I modelled in. Maybe technically [nonsense] but it sounded right and suited my approach to using code 75 and taking care and trouble over my buildings and scenery. Most people understood what I meant - a halfway house between code 100/universal and basic scenery and one of the more accurate gauges (EM/S4 etc.) and scratchbuild virtually everything. 

[Mark Laidlay]

1 hour ago, The White Rabbit said:

 

Just to throw my tuppence into the linguistic machinery, I usually replied, "Finescale OO" when asked what scale/gauge I modelled in. Maybe technically [nonsense] but it sounded right and suited my approach to using code 75 and taking care and trouble over my buildings and scenery. Most people understood what I meant - a halfway house between code 100/universal and basic scenery and one of the more accurate gauges (EM/S4 etc.) and scratchbuild virtually everything. 

But aren't there standards that use 16.5mm gauge with finer flangeways and wheels?  Are you pinching their name?

[Jeff Smith]

22 minutes ago, Mark Laidlay said:

But aren't there standards that use 16.5mm gauge with finer flangeways and wheels?  Are you pinching their name?

P87

[Willie Whizz]

23 hours ago, Dave John said:

It does all get rather messy. 

 

So I decided to find a quiet corner and choose my own scale. 1/50. Really logical if you think metric. 1 mm on a model represents 50 mm in real life. 20 mm is a metre, so metre gauge track is bang on  20 mm gauge. 

 

Even if you have to think imperial it is 0.24 inches to the foot. Not too hard to work with. 

 

Some folk might suggest that the downside is that you have to sit down at the bench and make everything. I would argue that making everything is the point of the exercise. 

Wasn’t that what the builders of the wonderful ‘Pempoul’ layout set in Northern France (Mr & Mrs Gravett IIRC?) decided to do?  Saw it in the flesh once, and although I never saw the prototype I don’t think I’ve ever seen a more ‘realistic’ model railway; you really did feel you just had to cross the road to be IN the scene …

[Dave John]

It was Willie Whizz, though there was an EM background so 18.2 mm gauge was used. 

 

I never saw Pempoul , though there are good videos. Certainly inspirational. 

 

Since I am effectively starting from scratch I can be precise and go for 20mm gauge. Whether it ends up a layout depends on time, for now I am happy experimenting with ideas. Cheap radio control, axle hung motors, magnets as  conductors, using parts as components rather than the scale they were made for. 

 

 

[Binky]

On 17/02/2023 at 13:30, Mark Laidlay said:

I see all sorts of things advertised as "00 gauge" even if they won't be going on the track being a building or a motor car.

Why not just call these things "4mm Scale"?

OO is the most popular scale/gauge in the UK and so historically the majority of a manufacturer's potential customers are going to be thinking "is this suitable for my OO gauge layout?".

Someone who has made the decision to model in EM/P4/OO9 will probably know the difference between scale and gauge and will know they model in 4mm scale, however the more casual "train set" owner (of which there used to be many) may just know their layout is "OO gauge".

[adriank]

16 hours ago, kevinlms said:

We have 5'3", 'standard' gauge, and 3'6" as 3 major gauges

 

And, as Tim Fischer records, 19 minor gauges including Mistake Narrow at 3' 8.5" where the engineering drawing was mis-read.

 

Adrian

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, Binky said:

OO is the most popular scale/gauge in the UK and so historically the majority of a manufacturer's potential customers are going to be thinking "is this suitable for my OO gauge layout?".

Someone who has made the decision to model in EM/P4/OO9 will probably know the difference between scale and gauge and will know they model in 4mm scale, however the more casual "train set" owner (of which there used to be many) may just know their layout is "OO gauge".

In Australia where the OP & I both live, any beginner who buys a train set, would probably refer to it as 'HO', even if it was a Hornby set, that obviously wouldn't be to HO scale.

Unless of course it was an N Gauge one!

[jjb1970]

Focusing on gauge is one of those things which reflects a certain pragmatism which may be incorrect but makes life easier.

 

There is a multitude of compromises based around 16.5mm track. In Britain the obvious one is obviously OO, in Japan their main 'HO' segment is 1/80 as a compromise to reduce the scale/gauge discrepancy when running 3'6" gauge models on 16.5mm track without inflating size of models too much. To make it more complicated there is also HO 1/87 in Japan and Shinkansen models are usually 1/87.  A few countries with narrow gauge railways make models in 1/87 scale to run on 16.5mm track (Australia, South Africa, Brazil for example) partly because the track exists and partly because many people want to operate these and also standard gauge prototypes without having to make two layouts or have a multi-gauge layout. Even Bemo have made models to run on 16.5mm track in recognition that there are people who would like to operate Swiss narrow gauge prototypes on their regular HO 16.5mm layouts.

 

As highlighted, there are similar compromises in the other widely used gauges.

 

The fine scale approach is that models and gauge should be to the same scale, but the main market takes a much more flexible approach. And for many lineside items you can get away with quite significant divergences in scale before things look silly.

 

So in many ways it makes more sense to focus on gauge and then scale. 

[Mark Laidlay]

Maybe I'm overly fussy but I can't mix models from different scales in the same scene.  Forced perspective uses the full scale in the foreground with smaller scales in the background so overscale models won't fit on my H0 scale railway.  Surely everyone can see the 4mm scale car in the attached photo amongst the H0 scale cars.