Gauge or Scale

[Mark Laidlay]

I'm coming to the UK from Australia for the York show then staying around 6 weeks and I feel a need to discuss this now so I don't annoy everyone when I get there.

Why is it UK modellers refer to product by gauge rather than scale?  4mm scale is the worst offender due to at least 3 standards/gauges being in place, 00, EM and P4.

I see all sorts of things advertised as "00 gauge" even if they won't be going on the track being a building or a motor car.

Why not just call these things "4mm Scale"?

It's all very good making it easy for beginners but they are very soon going to ask "what's the difference between gauge and scale?".

[AY Mod]

2 minutes ago, Mark Laidlay said:

Why not just call these things "4mm Scale"?

 

'Cos that doesn't tell you what gauge it is.

[Stubby47]

009 is also 4mm scale 😉

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Stubby47

[melmerby]

22 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

'Cos that doesn't tell you what gauge it is.

You don't need to know the track gauge if it's a building/tree etc.

 

Because

20 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

009 is also 4mm scale 😉

 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by melmerby

[AY Mod]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

You don't need to know the track gauge if it's a building/tree etc.

 

Most of them aren't to scale either.

[Not Jeremy]

It's quite difficult to gauge the scale of this question, to be honest you are going to find an awful lot of things in this country that are a lot more confusing. And please don't worry about upsetting any of us, it's much more likely that you will find this place and the people in it unsettling - but looking on the bright side at least you get to escape and return home after six weeks.....

 

 

Good luck!!

 

 

[JDW]

I think it's a fair point, but it's a generally accepted sloppy use of language (as can be found in so many places). Really, '00 scale' is probably a less inaccurate way of saying it for non-rail items (i.e. the same scale as the common 00 gauge models), but for most people, '00 gauge' is a synonym for '4mm scale' and easier to say. For buildings, buses or bushes, 4mm scale would be much more correct, of course. 

[Jeff Smith]

It's not really that hard.  2mm, 3mm, 3.5mm, 4mm, 7mm, etc merely refer to the scale (per foot) and could be anything in that scale.  Except that 2mm and 3mm tend to imply standard gauge modelling.

 

N, TT, TT3, OO, EM, P4, S7, O16.5, etc generally refer to scale/gauge combinations and are therefore more definitive.

[Martino]

It gets even worse with the larger scales/gauges.  I model in 16mm or 15mm/ft but on 45mm gauge.  That gives me a  1:1 gauge of 3ft.   However so much of this is lumped into G scale.  That of course means different things to every manufacturer.  LGB for example has rubber ruler and produces stuff in anything from 1:18 to 1:29 and everything in between.   It seems that stating you model in 16mm/ft means that people automatically assume that you run on 32mm gauge.  G scale means different things in the UK to the USA.  I find it frustrating to say the least.

[pH]

The filters on e-bay under ‘Gauge’ in the North American versions are ‘HO’, ‘O’,

‘N’, ‘O-27’ etc. There’s even ‘Narrow gauge’ - really precise!

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

You don't need to know the track gauge if it's a building/tree etc.

 

Because

 

True, but if it's about right for 3.5mm or 4mm to the foot, it's just as good in either scale as a slightly bigger/smaller tree/cottage.

So "OO/HO" is also a scale for practical purposes even though something can only be accurately measured for one or the other.

Structures such as platforms however do need to match the rolling stock, so are not interchangeable.

[PaulaDoesTrains]

3 hours ago, Martino said:

It gets even worse with the larger scales/gauges.  I model in 16mm or 15mm/ft but on 45mm gauge.  That gives me a  1:1 gauge of 3ft.   However so much of this is lumped into G scale.  That of course means different things to every manufacturer.  LGB for example has rubber ruler and produces stuff in anything from 1:18 to 1:29 and everything in between.   It seems that stating you model in 16mm/ft means that people automatically assume that you run on 32mm gauge.  G scale means different things in the UK to the USA.  I find it frustrating to say the least.

 

Here in the UK, from what I can gather, 16mm tends to run on either 32mm or 45mm gauge track. Some locos can have their wheels adjusted to run  on either. On 45mm we also have Gauge 1 which can be scaled at either 10mm:foot or 1/32. One thing I have noticed with 16mm especially is that freelance models are very popular. Narrow gauge, on any scale/gauge, has a charm all of it's own.

[Nearholmer]

6 hours ago, Mark Laidlay said:

Why is it UK modellers refer to product by gauge rather than scale? 

It’s really helpful if you want to play trains on your mate’s track, or to buy a wagon to run on your own.

Beyond that: history.

 

[DenysW]

6 hours ago, Mark Laidlay said:

4mm scale is the worst offender due to at least 3 standards/gauges being in place, 00, EM and P4.

00 is 1:76 (scale) but designed to run on HO (1:87) track - because that what was being imported from Europe when all this OO stuff started. It is also asserted that squidgy little UK prototype locomotives couldn't be made to work at 1:87 scale because the resulting outer shells would be too small for the motors, which were fine for bigger, more powerful continental outline. Not sure, feels like an excuse.

 

When you get to EM and P4 they've changed the gauge (but not the scale) so the scale is more uniform between the track and the locos, and the appearance is better, but you fail @Nearholmer's test and can't play trains at your mates unless you've agreed the same gauge. And are willing to build your own track for EM and P4.

 

Then you get that original HO/OO (1:87) track is code 100 (0.1" or 100-thousandths of an inch) tall and that is way higher than prototype rails times 87. So you start getting codes 83, 75 and 60 rails. Older models may not run on lower track than code 100 due to the sizes of the flanges on the  wheels, but that is case-by-case.

 

P4 is closest to scale (look for references to pizza-cutter wheels from P4-thusiasts about HO/OO models), but means that the (much) smaller flanges on their wheels are much less tolerant of less-than-perfect track, and you are virtually compelled to fix the track you've built yourself to baseboards.

 

Finally, I note by reading the small print on Marklin HO models that the length of their carriages is to a different scale from the height and width.

 

Bon chance, mon ami.

[RichardT]

7 hours ago, Mark Laidlay said:

Why is it UK modellers refer to product by gauge rather than scale?

Because the gauge was often seen as the most significant constant - it tells you what other models will run on the same track as you have.  
 

“N gauge” versus “N scale” is the most commonly-cited example: there’s no such thing as “N scale” despite that being the common usage in the USA.   Japanese N models are 1:150 scale, UK 1:148, US & European 1:160 - but they all run on 9mm gauge track, so N Gauge is the most applicable term (N for nine/neuf/neun/nove/nueve/negen/nio/ni - you get the idea).  
 

In 4mm scale 00, P4 and EM refer to the gauge, not the scale, so again “gauge” is used.

But I might equally well post a message saying “why do Australians refer to flip-flops as “thongs”?  It makes no sense - thongs are underwear.”  Different countries use different words for things, and that’s how it is.  Enjoy your trip to the York show - remember that the meals up here are called breakfast, dinner and tea, and Yorkshire pudding is not eaten for dessert…

RichardT

 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by RichardT

[sncf231e]

7 hours ago, Mark Laidlay said:

Why is it UK modellers refer to product by gauge rather than scale? 

Apparently in Australia the gauge/scale terminology is good, I would be happy to know how that is done in simple wording.

Gauge/scale terminology is certainly is not only in the UK a mess. It is also a mess in Europe and the USA (see the EU MOROP and USA NMRA standards if you want to be confused).

Regards

Fred

My e-book: http://sncf231e.nl/gauge-and-scale/

[melmoth]

There is a quotation, apparently attributed to Alexander Pope, that says something like "words change their meaning as their meanings change". I'm not sure if it has relevance here, but reading the above called it to mind.

 

As you were, chaps.

[Bucoops]

I'm struggling to gauge the scale of the problem.

 

But between the lines, I think there's a bit of a gap.

[Mark Laidlay]

4 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

True, but if it's about right for 3.5mm or 4mm to the foot, it's just as good in either scale as a slightly bigger/smaller tree/cottage.

So "OO/HO" is also a scale for practical purposes even though something can only be accurately measured for one or the other.

Structures such as platforms however do need to match the rolling stock, so are not interchangeable.

My railway is H0 scale Australian prototype and any 4mm scale cars stick out badly, remember they are 12% to long, 12% to wide and 12% to high so the total volume is much greater.

[Mark Laidlay]

2 hours ago, RichardT said:

Because the gauge was often seen as the most significant constant - it tells you what other models will run on the same track as you have.  
 

“N gauge” versus “N scale” is the most commonly-cited example: there’s no such thing as “N scale” despite that being the common usage in the USA.   Japanese N models are 1:150 scale, UK 1:148, US & European 1:160 - but they all run on 9mm gauge track, so N Gauge is the most applicable term (N for nine/neuf/neun/nove/nueve/negen/nio/ni - you get the idea).  

RichardT

 

 

So is anything that runs on 9mm gauge track "N gauge"?

[Mark Laidlay]

When I'm in charge after the revolution I will mandate that the nomenclature will tell us the scale, gauge and standards.  P (Proto) 4 (or 76) S (standard gauge), P87S.  U (Universal) 4S would replace 00.  C (coarse) 7S, C48S, S10S.  Exceptions to standard gauge (broad or narrow) would be indicated by either the gauge of the model track or the gauge of the prototype track.  

[Mark Laidlay]

1 hour ago, sncf231e said:

Apparently in Australia the gauge/scale terminology is good, I would be happy to know how that is done in simple wording.

Gauge/scale terminology is certainly is not only in the UK a mess. It is also a mess in Europe and the USA (see the EU MOROP and USA NMRA standards if you want to be confused).

Regards

Fred

My e-book: http://sncf231e.nl/gauge-and-scale/

Much the same as the US but it's just as messy as most places.  The problem specific to the UK is the common use of the word "gauge" in relation to a non rail model - tree, building, car etc. 

[Mark Laidlay]

2 hours ago, RichardT said:

 Enjoy your trip to the York show - remember that the meals up here are called breakfast, dinner and tea, and Yorkshire pudding is not eaten for dessert…

RichardT

 

 

They are the names used during my formative years.  Today I find it irritating when people refer to "Christmas Lunch"  Dinner is traditionally the midday meal.

[Dave John]

It does all get rather messy. 

 

So I decided to find a quiet corner and choose my own scale. 1/50. Really logical if you think metric. 1 mm on a model represents 50 mm in real life. 20 mm is a metre, so metre gauge track is bang on  20 mm gauge. 

 

Even if you have to think imperial it is 0.24 inches to the foot. Not too hard to work with. 

 

Some folk might suggest that the downside is that you have to sit down at the bench and make everything. I would argue that making everything is the point of the exercise. 

[RichardT]

On 17/02/2023 at 22:41, Mark Laidlay said:

So is anything that runs on 9mm gauge track "N gauge"?

I think you’re being mischievous now…. The unspoken assumption is that the terminology is referring to models of standard gauge prototypes.  (I’m expecting you to ignore the Japanese oddity when I say that - two can play at this mischievousness game! 😉)

[Technically this is known as a false syllogism: the phrase “everything called N gauge runs on 9mm track” does not imply “everything that runs on 9mm track is N gauge”. Long time since I’ve legitimately been able to use the word syllogism.]

 

On 17/02/2023 at 22:52, Mark Laidlay said:

When I'm in charge after the revolution I will mandate that the nomenclature will tell us the scale, gauge and standards.  P (Proto) 4 (or 76) S (standard gauge), P87S.  U (Universal) 4S would replace 00.  C (coarse) 7S, C48S, S10S.  Exceptions to standard gauge (broad or narrow) would be indicated by either the gauge of the model track or the gauge of the prototype track.  

I, for one, welcome our new consistent-nomenclature overlords.

 

On 17/02/2023 at 23:05, Mark Laidlay said:

They are the names used during my formative years.  Today I find it irritating when people refer to "Christmas Lunch"  Dinner is traditionally the midday meal.

Abso-bloody-lutely! This is the terminology that really matters.

 

See you at the York show.

 

RT

Edited February 19, 2023 by RichardT
Syllogism