Märklin announces Flying Scotsman in H0

[BernardTPM]

11 hours ago, Ravenser said:

In contrast , Rivarossi announced a Royal Scot and coaches in 1977, which lingered unsold for a few years (Were they also involved with the Peco Jubilee in N??)

Yes, it was made by Rivarossi. The motor is more or less standard for that time. Very nice model, but no real follow up despite the fact that the tender drive could have been used for a wide range of LMS locos.

[DIW]

11 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Some companies seem to divert from their core market almost as a private indulgence.

Hmm, that could also describe a certain popular Canadian manufacturer of highly detailed railway models, which has branched out into the sphere of the Omnibuses of Birmingham.

[maico]

16 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Some companies seem to divert from their core market almost as a private indulgence. The best example may be Kato, they have made US outline and occasional European outline for decades because it pleases their owner (though I am sure it would not have continued if these diversions weren't profitable).

 

Marklin Trix are currently on a museum loco spree. In 2022 the Slovak Republic Railways albatros was introduced

 

https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/Steam+Locomotive/Tender+Locomotive/Märklin-39498/gb/modell_407383.html

 

 

[pete_mcfarlane]

8 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

Yes, it was made by Rivarossi. The motor is more or less standard for that time. Very nice model, but no real follow up despite the fact that the tender drive could have been used for a wide range of LMS locos.

Am I right in thinking that the Rivarossi Royal Scot isn't actually HO, but somewhere around 1:80 scale? 

 

[BernardTPM]

27 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Am I right in thinking that the Rivarossi Royal Scot isn't actually HO, but somewhere around 1:80 scale?

Yes, as I mentioned earlier. I have heard that some of their older Italian H0 models were also to the same scale, but I have no confirmation of that.

[sncf231e]

15 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

Yes, as I mentioned earlier. I have heard that some of their older Italian H0 models were also to the same scale, but I have no confirmation of that.

None of the older (before Lima,RivaRossi,Hornby) RivaRossi catalogues mention scale, they only mention gauge (H0, 0 and N). And indeed RivaRossi did not use the correct 1:87 scale in their products for the continental market, including Italy, until the eighties. See the size difference in this Roco (1:87) and RivaRossi (H0 gauge) NORD Pacific. 

 

More on scale and gauge (H0/00 and much more) can of course be seen and read in my free to download e-book on the subject http://sncf231e.nl/gauge-and-scale/

 

Regards

Fred

[The Stationmaster]

I noticed that daylight was visible above the trailing truck so does this mean that it can actually move on curves?  If so it soes it ean  that an HO version is simpler to make more realistic than an 00 one?

[D9020 Nimbus]

I thought the point about a realistic Cartazzi truck is that the real thing doesn't have daylight above it and doesn't move on curves. The Triang-Hornby OO model of the 1960s and the current Dapol N gauge one have daylight above the truck and let it pivot on curves—so nothing specific to HO scale there.

To get an A3 or A4 pacific round sharp curves there has to be some compromise—and continental manufacturers usually make models to go round considerably shorter curves than the British "standard" of second radius—which doesn't make sense in anything other than OO, anyway.

[wombatofludham]

For models from when I was at secondary school the Rivarossi LMS Period 1 coaches and the semi-open firsts built for the "Royal Scot" are lovely models but the scale discrepancy is noticeable next to 1:76 scale coaches.  The lack of a dining car in the range is a shame as the Dapornby diner does stand out if you put it in a rake of the coaches.  I've got round it by planning to use a ten car rake, made up of two five car portions, as a Summer Saturday excursion cobbled together from main line stock otherwise lying idle.

It is a shame though they were produced to less than 1:76 as I'm sure to OO scale they would have sold like the proverbial hot cakes being way ahead of any competition at the time.

[maico]

22 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I noticed that daylight was visible above the trailing truck so does this mean that it can actually move on curves?  If so it soes it ean  that an HO version is simpler to make more realistic than an 00 one?

 

This video gives a good explanation of how the Cartazzi truck works.

 

Impossible to model of course in a small scale. Bachmann makes the underframe out of scale to allow the wheel axle to move sideways inside and modern Hornby uses fixed axles with flangeless wheels. Marklin Trix has flanged wheels so I guess will use the pony truck method to get around R2

 

 

[Grovenor]

And H0 will always make such a truck more difficult than 00 because there will bew even less space between the wheelsets and the frames for any sideplay.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Grovenor

[craneman]

On 25/02/2023 at 13:58, 69843 said:

Actually, the 1994 Precision Scale Models A3 model pipped even the TT-120 A3 to that post by a good 29 years. Fully detailed and RTR, to HO scale, RP25-88 profile wheels, even a working centre crank axle and connecting rod. Available in Australian tour condition (limited edition of 150), as 60103 in pretty much this condition (25) or the following (only 5 of each):
60044 Melton BR lined green, ex-GNR tender, double chimney, deflectors
60049 Galtee More BR lined green, ex-GNR tender, double chimney, deflectors
60065 Knight of Thistle BR lined green, ex-GNR tender, single chimney
60096 Papyrus BR lined green, ex-GNR tender, double chimney
60110 Robert the Devil BR lined green, ex-GNR tender, single chimney

 

Probably the finest ready-to-run British outline model in either 3.5mm/ft or 4mm/ft yet produced, and it is unlikely that the Marklin/Trix version could approach it in terms of quality. The brochure photos make the new model look disappointingly crude, and the wheels are shocking! What a shame.

 

I can't remember what I paid for my PSM model, and I am not sure I want to.

 

It would be rather pleasing if Marklin/Trix went on to produce a wider range of HO British outline, and much more sensible endeavour than Hornby's inexplicable TT programme in my opinion.

Edited March 2, 2023 by craneman

[maico]

2 hours ago, craneman said:

 

Probably the finest ready-to-run British outline model in either 3.5mm/ft or 4mm/ft yet produced, and it is unlikely that the Marklin/Trix version could approach it in terms of quality. The brochure photos make the new model look disappointingly crude, and the wheels are shocking! What a shame.

 

I can't remember what I paid for my PSM model, and I am not sure I want to.

 

It would be rather pleasing if Marklin/Trix went on to produce a wider range of HO British outline, and much more sensible endeavour than Hornby's inexplicable TT programme in my opinion.

 

I'm not sure an expensive limited edition Ho model hand-crafted in brass by Samhongsa of Korea is a fair comparison. The Marklin Trix images are digital renders. The model is due Q3 at the earliest maybe there will be some decorated samples to view before then.

Edited March 2, 2023 by maico

[maico]

[Mel_H]

2 hours ago, craneman said:

 

Probably the finest ready-to-run British outline model in either 3.5mm/ft or 4mm/ft yet produced, and it is unlikely that the Marklin/Trix version could approach it in terms of quality. The brochure photos make the new model look disappointingly crude, and the wheels are shocking! What a shame.

 

I can't remember what I paid for my PSM model, and I am not sure I want to.

 

It would be rather pleasing if Marklin/Trix went on to produce a wider range of HO British outline, and much more sensible endeavour than Hornby's inexplicable TT programme in my opinion.

Some would say that, at the price, it should be. Still it lends weight to the arguments of those who want true perfection to 'European' standards, and are reminded that they come with a 'European' price tag. Comparisons with TT:120 could be seen as a tad unfair, given that it is aimed at a different, and clearly more price-conscious market. I've no doubt that the [iconic] Flying Scotsman [the world's most famous loco] will sell rather well in the 'just because' HO market. It's interesting that Hornby sells more Rivarossi 'Big Boy' models in the UK than in the USA - here it's reasonably priced for what it is. In the USA there are better-detailed more modern (and therefore much more expensive) 'Big Boys'.

Anyway, is it me, or does the chimney look rather tall?

Pictures flipped to enable easier comparison (I know that some details - not the chimney - are 'side specific')

[maico]

I put the 1995 advertised price of the PSM A3 through the inflation calculator and it came out at circa £1850 ⛔

 

http://www.british-ho.com/showcase/traction-steam/psm_a3.htm

Edited March 2, 2023 by maico

[craneman]

Although I wouldn't expect the Marklin/Trix Scotsman to approach the Samhongsa version, there are RTR mass-produced models which approach it in terms of detail. Fulgurex used to do it, and I'd argue that in terms of detail and finish some recent Hornby and Bachmann haven't been far behind, it's just such a shame that the latter are not scale models.

 

My comments about TT120 were not Scotsman related but more because there is a huge global base of HO scale modellers, I believe it to be by far the world's most popular model railway scale. I am intrigued that Hornby thinks an entirely new scale with no established customer base at all is a better bet. I'm not saying they're wrong, and I wish them well, I just find it surprising.

[maico]

45 minutes ago, craneman said:

Although I wouldn't expect the Marklin/Trix Scotsman to approach the Samhongsa version, there are RTR mass-produced models which approach it in terms of detail. Fulgurex used to do it, and I'd argue that in terms of detail and finish some recent Hornby and Bachmann haven't been far behind, it's just such a shame that the latter are not scale models.

 

 

 

Does your Sam run ok on track compared to the average RTR model ?

 

The other day I almost bought a Fulgurex BR 65 tank loco that had been listed on eBay numerous times unsold.

I offered £220 which was accepted but I went on holiday and missed out on it.

It's hard buying something like that without ever seeing one in person. Buying used German Trix I know what's going to turn up already owning 10 of them...

Edited March 2, 2023 by maico

[craneman]

Yes, as do various other US outline brass locos from various importers built by Samhongsa. Mind you they're premium models so it would be disappointing if they didn't.

 

A far cry from the days of Akane and the likes from 50 years ago, but they were state of the art then.

 

I think today's modellers tend to forget (or not realise) how lucky we are now in terms of variety, quality, and value for money.

[maico]

I can see the Scotsman selling in the UK to people like me who run German and Swiss outline.

Some might be surprized how small it is when they open the box. It's going to be shorter than this Trix P10 which itself is quite dinky and delicate.

[Ravenser]

2 hours ago, craneman said:

 

My comments about TT120 were not Scotsman related but more because there is a huge global base of HO scale modellers, I believe it to be by far the world's most popular model railway scale. I am intrigued that Hornby thinks an entirely new scale with no established customer base at all is a better bet. I'm not saying they're wrong, and I wish them well, I just find it surprising.

 

The simple fact is that those modelling in HO are not modelling British prototype .  I remain politely sceptical that there are that many folk outside Britain who really want to model Britain's railways but aren't prepared to do so in 4mm scale

 

There have been multiple attempts to launch small ranges of British models in HO (at least 4 between 1965 and 1985, not counting Trix's 3.8mm scale...). They have all been a complete commercial failure . British modellers were  not interested, and the  "huge global base of HO scale modellers" didn't produce any significant sales either.

 

TT is not "an entirely new scale" . It's been around for many decades , it's a fully commercial RTR scale in quite a few countries on the Continent, and in many of them it's the number 2 scale. Hornby have been making German-outline TT for a number of years with some success, and they were seeking a smaller scale to sell in Britain for those who find OO needs more space than they have at home

 

True it's a new scale in the British market, with no existing British customer base. But exactly the same can be said of HO.

 

A scale 25% larger than British N offers something quite different from 4mm, while potentially addressing some of the limitations of N . A scale 87.5% the size of 4mm offers very little different. Most folk will simply shrug and say "what's the point?"

 

It's not at all certain that Hornby's TT:120 venture will succeed sufficiently to survive long term (although I'm certain some of the items would remain in production for the Eastern European market).  But it has a lot more potential for them than HO, which has failed and failed and failed again in the British market, and offers very little that OO doesn't already give them.

 

I doubt if Marklin's price-tag for this model will change that. As some have remarked , the chimney is too tall, and I suspect they will have to resort to an over-wide loco to space the valve gear far enough out to clear the wheels and get round model curves. HO has to compromise as well...

 

(But we won't know that till someone sees the actusl model)

Edited March 3, 2023 by Ravenser

[jjb1970]

The problem with trying to convert Britain to HO or Euro N is that even with the Channel Tunnel and earlier ferry trains Britain is basically a self contained system. The fact that there is a vast amount of international HO gauge (which is by no means all 1/87 scale) is irrelevant if you are interested in British outline. Just as I am completely uninterested in seafood restaurants regardless of how much others love seafood so availability of lots of nice German, Swiss, Austrian etc models means nothing if you don't want them. Japan is a similar example, they also do their own thing with scale and it doesn't matter because if you like Japanese trains then that's what you like and you will either live with the compromises of RTR or convert/kit/scratch build.

[ellocoloco]

7 hours ago, Ravenser said:

The simple fact is that those modelling in HO are not modelling British prototype

The simple fact that you have posted this on the British HO subforum on RMReb makes your statement both insulting and laughable. There are not many of us but we exist. 

 

 

[ellocoloco]

@craneman I remember seeing the PSM A3 in CM when it was announced. I had just left school so was in no position to get one. Your a lucky man. Without a doubt the finest RTR British outline 16.5mm gauge locomotive ever produced. I've ordered the Trix version which I'm sure will also be remarkable. 

 

As soon as I left school I dumped OO and went for HO.I couldn't accept how wrong it is as a scale. I now have a few HO British 66s. I haven't repainted a Trix/Marklin 66 yet but the fact they already have a British HO locomotive in their line-up seems to have been overlooked.

 

Two Mehano and an ESU await an A3 to play with!

 

 

[sncf231e]

8 hours ago, Ravenser said:

TT is not "an entirely new scale" . It's been around for many decades , it's a fully commercial RTR scale in quite a few countries on the Continent, and in many of them it's the number 2 scale.

I do not think there is any country on the continent where TT is the number 2 scale. It might have been in East Germany, but that is now more than 30 years ago.

Regards

Fred

See chapter 4 in my e-book: http://sncf231e.nl/gauge-and-scale/