Märklin announces Flying Scotsman in H0

[Ravenser]

2 hours ago, sncf231e said:

I do not think there is any country on the continent where TT is the number 2 scale. It might have been in East Germany, but that is now more than 30 years ago.

Regards

Fred

See chapter 4 in my e-book: http://sncf231e.nl/gauge-and-scale/

 

Poland, Czech Republic,  Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Russia. In all of which TT seems to be the dominant small scale , with N trailing badly. The same seems to be true in the former East Germany , where modellers seem to have stuck with TT rather than switching to N. Of course the figures of the Federal Republic as a whole reflect the dominance of N in the former West Germany , which makes up about 3/4s of the population of Germany as a whole

 

I can't help wondering if the small share of TT in West Germany actually reflects Ossis who have moved into West Germany. Thirty years after the Iron Curtain came down, the "wall in the head" still seems to be very much there...

 

Hornby's initiative is the first serious attempt to take TT into Western Europe. It's a bold, radical step and none of us know how successful it will be in the medium to long term. The "Triang TT3" scenario, of limited penetration and ultimate commercial failure, is certainly one possible outcome - although that would certainly leave some kind of British TT modelling community and 1:120 would permanently remain an option for British outline modelling.  The existance of a substantial commercial TT eco-system and the virtual certainty that a TT Class 66 and probably a few other items will remain in production mean that even under that scenario it would be far better supported than 3mm was after 1965

 

But in the short term TT:120 seems to be selling much better than the initial reaction in this community would have led you to expect . (You could think of it as Hornby's equivalent to Marklin's Z gauge, which hasn't swept away N but remains enough of a commercial success to have stayed in production for 50 years)

 

It's not a magic wand - compromises are necessary to get a model of a Gresley Pacific built to a "scale gauge" round curves a lot sharper than scale, while using wheels that are wider than scale. In the case of TT120, Hornby seem to have made the models up to 2mm wider across the cylinders than dead scale, to accomodate the wheels and motion . That's the alternative to narrowing the gauge to provide the necessary clearance. It's down to you which set of compromises you find more palatable

 

Marklin will need to make compromises in HO, for the same reason. I would imagine they will go the same way, and move the cylinders out

 

At this stage the Marklin model does look like an isolated trophy "museum loco" for the collector without any intention to make stock to run with it, and I'm not even sure it's aimed at the British market. Given that over the last half century Marklin have shown no real interest in doing British Z , and given that they inherited a range of British N tooling from Trix, along with an offer to market it from Bachmann but did nothing about it, I reckon targetting the UK now would be something of a radical break with their usual stance. In that respect it will be interesting to see if it is made available via British retailers - and at what price (I gather German manufacturers have historically declined to deal directly with retailers outside Germany, meaning an importer's wholesale mark-up, typically about 25%, had to be added to the price)

 

 

[sncf231e]

11 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

Poland, Czech Republic,  Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Russia. In all of which TT seems to be the dominant small scale , with N trailing badly.

I have been in Poland, Czech Republic,  Hungary and Russia and only in the Czech Republic you can find some model trains. There is virtually no model train interest in the other countries, so mentioning a dominant small scale is questionable. In the Czech Republic I only found some H0 and 0 (ETS and Merkur) gauge, no TT or N.

 

Further on the Märklin Flying Scotsman: this is indeed clearly not at all aimed at the British Market. Märklin advises to use their Orient Express or the announced Edelweiss (Pullman) Express to be pulled by the Flying Scotsman.

 

Regards

Fred  

[giz]

14 minutes ago, sncf231e said:

I have been in Poland, Czech Republic,  Hungary and Russia and only in the Czech Republic you can find some model trains. There is virtually no model train interest in the other countries, so mentioning a dominant small scale is questionable. In the Czech Republic I only found some H0 and 0 (ETS and Merkur) gauge, no TT or N.

 

Regards

Fred  

There seems to be enough interest to make MTB think there is a worthwhile market:

 

https://mtb-model.com/pages/product_vypis.php?meritko=TT

[maico]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

 I reckon targetting the UK now would be something of a radical break with their usual stance. In that respect it will be interesting to see if it is made available via British retailers - and at what price (I gather German manufacturers have historically declined to deal directly with retailers outside Germany, meaning an importer's wholesale mark-up, typically about 25%, had to be added to the price)

 

 

 

Hattons and Rails might have to go through the official importer Guagemaster

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/1167009/trix_22886_class_a3_4_6_2_60103_flying_scotsman_in_br_green_with_late_crest_digital_sound_/stockdetail

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/br-a3-60103-flying-scotsman-dcc-sound

 

Kernow will need a price adjustment!

 

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/81221/M22886-Trix-Class-A3-Steam-Loco-number-60103-FLYING-SCOTSMAN

Edited March 3, 2023 by maico

[natterjack]

14 hours ago, craneman said:

I am intrigued that Hornby thinks an entirely new scale with no established customer base at all is a better bet

Just ask yourself how many established UK market OO modellers would convert to HO in significant numbers and how long it would take for HO to offer comparable choice. In TT1210 Hornby presently have a clear field for UK outline and a totally different market opportunity.

 

I frequently see comment that Hornby ignores HO and N but that overlooks their wider brand ownership which gives them significant sales feed back in these 'scales'.

[Ravenser]

1 minute ago, natterjack said:

Just ask yourself how many established UK market OO modellers would convert to HO in significant numbers and how long it would take for HO to offer comparable choice. In TT1210 Hornby presently have a clear field for UK outline and a totally different market opportunity.

 

I frequently see comment that Hornby ignores HO and N but that overlooks their wider brand ownership which gives them significant sales feed back in these 'scales'.

 

 

Hornby International (Jouef, Elettrotren, Rivarossi and Arnold) are of course players in both HO and N on the Continent - along with some TT from Arnold

 

It was the lack of anything smaller scale than OO in the British market which was looking odd

 

To drag this back to Marklin - think of TT:120 as the Hornby equivalent of Z gauge

 

While the small number of British HO modellers will doubtless welcome any RTR model, this one won't come cheap. Vintage Lima Mk1s from the 1970s may not sit too well with it, and the facgt that the Marklin model is DCC Sound raises another complication - you'd have to fit decoders to some very vintage HO models to go DCC and get the benefits of sound here

 

 

[jjb1970]

I was thinking about this, and thought that if we were starting from scratch then the ideal would be for everyone to agree maybe three standard scales/gauges - a large one (32mm, 1/43.5?), an intermediate one (16.5mm, 1/87?) and a small one (9mm, 1/160?). However, then I started thinking more and even with a clean sheet ideal new start it is not that simple. 

 

Many countries are either not standard gauge or have multiple gauges. So do you go for a common scale and compromise on gauge, or have a common scale with multiple gauges or maybe even a common gauge but alter scale? The correct approach if we are really serious would be multiple gauge track with a common scale, which is done for things like Swiss narrow gauge, but the pragmatic approach in countries like Australia is a common gauge and accepting that this means there is a discrepancy in gauge for scale. The final option (common gauge, different scale) may seem the crazy one, yet that is what Japan did, Shinkansen trains are 1/87 on HO track, other trains (including standard gauge non-JR types, weirdly) are 1/80 on HO track (which is a much bigger scale/gauge discrepancy than UK OO).

 

While it might be most correct to have multiple track gauges, many would like to have interoperability and would rather accept the necessary compromises (such as broad gauge HO models being made to run on the equivalent of standard gauge) than be restricted to what models they can run on a given track. Even Bemo made some Swiss narrow gauge models to run on 16.5mm track, and the Kato RhB models are 1/150 to tun on 9mm track, which is the same as most Japanese outline N except Shinkansen trains (1/150 is not correct for either Japanese or Swiss narrow gauge on 9mm track).

 

So even with a clean sheet it is not as simple as it looks. Modelling is like anything else in life, it is about seeking an optimum compromise which gives the best overall result.

[spamcan61]

5 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

So even with a clean sheet it is not as simple as it looks. Modelling is like anything else in life, it is about seeking an optimum compromise which gives the best overall result.

Absolutely! whilst 'best overall result' can be different things to different people that is my viewpoint on life as well.

[sncf231e]

5 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I was thinking about this, and thought that if we were starting from scratch then the ideal would be for everyone to agree maybe three standard scales/gauges - a large one (32mm, 1/43.5?), an intermediate one (16.5mm, 1/87?) and a small one (9mm, 1/160?).

That (starting from scratch) is what Märklin did in 1891, 3 gauges: a large one (75 mm), an intermediate one (54 mm) and a small one (45 mm).

Regards

Fred

[D9020 Nimbus]

Hornby have had an in-out relationship with N gauge ever since the 1970s. For a while they imported Minitrix U.K. outline models under the "Hornby-Minitrix" brand. There was a range of station buildings of the same design as the Hornby OO ones of the time, and they may have commissioned particular prototypes. But they abandoned the range.

 

Later they did N gauge versions of Skaledale structures as "Lyddle End" but stopped doing those too. There was also the Arnold "Brighton Belle", which may have been proposed by the Arnold team rather than U.K. Hornby, but was to 1:148 scale, but it was never followed up by anything.

 

They wouldn't consider doing N gauge now as all the big steam locos have been done (with the exception of the Bulleid Light Pacific, announced by Dapol in 2011 and still awaited). Had they been interested in N gauge they could have bid for Graham Farish when it was up for sale, or started a range during the period in the early 2000s when Farish was effectively unavailable and many were pessimistic as to whether or not British N had a future.

 

TT-3 had a 16% market share at its peak—N has never had that much, though back in 2017 it represented 20% of Bachmann Europe's turnover [OO=50%, Liliput=18%, everything else=12%]. But at the time it was dropped Tri-ang had achieved almost complete market dominance, so they were mainly competing with themselves.

[wairoa]

This may not mean much, but I was speaking to a retailer here in the U.S yesterday and he said since the announcement he has received 70 pre orders for the Trix/Marklin Flying Scotsman. That sounds not to shabby to me. The store owner said he is hoping Marklin will decide to make appropriate rolling stock and may will continue with British HO.

I would certainly like to see an HO A4 or Class 47 in the future?

[maico]

Some additional tender CAD renderings. The corridor has lighting as does the cab and firebox.

The kinematic coupling has 2 positions, display and I would guess R4+ and the longer setting for curves down to R2

Edited March 5, 2023 by maico

[Mark Laidlay]

On 03/03/2023 at 19:27, ellocoloco said:

As soon as I left school I dumped OO and went for HO.I couldn't accept how wrong it is as a scale.

Most in your position corrected the gauge and stayed with 4mm scale.  But you corrected the scale, it's a pity that many more didn't.  Did you see two options and what drove your decision?

[ellocoloco]

@Mark Laidlay I corrected the scale by going for continental and US HO models first - and P4 or EM was way above my skill set. I also thought the European and US models were far better than what was available in OO in the eighties and nineties. The British HO ones came later when I felt I was missing out on what was running locally and also in a better financial position - that is, I didn't mind the risk of repainting a rtr model and potentially ruining it. I wanted compatibility across my collection and finally reckoned I had the ability to repaint some models. 

 

My current dilemma is I have a large number of Spanish HO models which also have a gauge issue! I will probably leave them at 16.5mm but they really should be at 19.1mm and the thought of a P4 style regauging is nagging at me. I think Spanish broad gauge HO modellers are even thinner on the ground than British HO standard gauge modellers! As you are in Australia, any advice about broad gauge in HO?

 

 

[BernardTPM]

The Irish* 5' 3" gauge is almost the same as EM's gauge in H0 scale (18.375 against 18.2mm).

 

* Also used in Victoria and South Australia, of course.

[Mark Laidlay]

1 hour ago, ellocoloco said:

@Mark LaidlayAs you are in Australia, any advice about broad gauge in HO?

 

 

There are very few modellers who correct the gauge for broad gauge in Australia.  There's no commercial support or agreed standards in H0 scale.  I've got ideas and a few supplies for a small layout using EM standards as per the Broadford layout on the exhibition circuit in the UK.  0 scale is a different matter, modellers in BG states use 1:48 which give 5' gauge while those in SG states (one state only really) use 1:43.5.  Other states are historically NG at 3'6" so Sn31/2 suit them on 16.5 gauge track.

 

There is a justification for using under-gauge track as has been alluded to in the discussion on the H0 Marklin A3, if the rail gauge is correct the over-scale wheels and valve gear clearances pushes the cylinder centres out but if you leave the wheel faces in the right spot and move the flanges (and track gauge) in the loco is more correct.  Of course this is the original justification for 00 (nothing to do with motors) as it allows the splashers to be closer to the right width.  Of course the track looks wrong but that was ok in the '30s when 00 was invented.

[AY Mod]

On 03/03/2023 at 16:05, D9020 Nimbus said:

TT-3 had a 16% market share at its peak—N has never had that much, though back in 2017 it represented 20% of Bachmann Europe's

 

Have you got a source for that 16%?

 

Our recent survey puts N ahead of that figure, as have previous surveys I've done.

 

 

[JohnR]

If N was only at its maximum 20% of Bachmann, then it is logical that the overall market share for N was much less, given that Bachmann in its entirety is smaller than Hornby, who are (until now) exclusively OO. I think its fair to say that the other major N gauge manufacturer, Dapol, is much smaller that it is not going to have made a great deal of difference - and again N is only a part of its offering, OO and O making up a majority of its sales. 

[maico]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

 

Have you got a source for that 16%?

 

Our recent survey puts N ahead of that figure, as have previous surveys I've done.

 

 

 

I need a maths lesson, why do the % add up to more than 100?

[Ravenser]

4 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Have you got a source for that 16%?

 

Our recent survey puts N ahead of that figure, as have previous surveys I've done.

 

 

 

 

I find the 16% suggested for TT in the 60s incredible, given that in the peak year (1960) sales of TT sets were somewhat less than 9000 sets, and by 1962 sales had fallen to 4300 sets. That same year (1962) Triang sold 168,000 OO/HO sets . Hornby Dublo, (British) Trix and Playcraft sales  were on top of that...  (Source: Pat Hammond's book)

 

However I do get the very strong sense that TT-3 took off pretty strongly on the "scale" side of the hobby

 

It's not really related to Marklin, I'm afraid, but carton markings suggest Hornby have sold over 3500 TT:120 sets in the first 3 months. Given that the market is a lot smaller than it was 50 years ago, that suggests that so far TT:120 is pentrating the British market much better than TT-3 did 50 odd years ago. But it's early days 

Edited March 5, 2023 by Ravenser
correcting 1962 figure

[AY Mod]

2 minutes ago, maico said:

 

I need a maths lesson, why do the % add up to more than 100?

 

Because x% of the sample model that scale/gauge. Some model more than one.

[Ravenser]

1 minute ago, maico said:

 

I need a maths lesson, why do the % add up to more than 100?

 

 

Lots of people are active in more than one scale .

 

Depending on what degree of overlap you assume betweem 4mm standard gauge and 4mm narrow gauge, somewhere between 84% and 97% of people on RMweb are active in 4mm, in some form (Though they may also be modelling in other scales)

 

I would estimate from that , that no more than 10-12% of people on here do not model in 4mm scale at all

 

For me that's one of the stand-out findings from the survey : the sheer omnipresence of 4mm modelling.

 

My guess is that most of those who aren't in 4mm at all are N gauge modellers . If you have space for 7mm you certainly have space for 4mm . Even so, it may be that nearly half of those in N/2mm finescale also model in 4mm

[D9020 Nimbus]

3 hours ago, AY Mod said:

Have you got a source for that 16%?

It was an issue of Railway Modeller in the early 1960s. I can't remember which one, but the figure stuck in my mind as it was much larger than I expected. Based on the train set figures, this may have been based on a readership survey. If I come on the figures again I'll see what it represents.

 

There seems to have been a general assumption that British outline N gauge's share of the British market is about 10%. I suspect there are a relatively high proportion of N gauge modellers into continental or US outline. At one time a fairly high proportion of British N gauge models were relatively crude or poor runners. Judging from one or two of the comments on TT:120 threads, some (wrongly) think they still are…

[jjb1970]

Some Queensland prototypes were offered with correct gauge, but the 16.5mm versions of the models seem to have been more popular. Probably so people can operate NSW, Victorian and other trains on their layout without needing two different track gauges or dual gauge track. Similar to the approach of Japanese enthusiasts.

[009 micro modeller]

On 28/02/2023 at 00:08, Ravenser said:

Roco , it was said , flirted with doing a British range 20 years ,(presumably before Flieschmann took them over?) and I think they were Peco's partner for a OO9 loco?

Not sure about that one. Possibly there’s a bit of confusion in that, around 2009, Roco (apparently on their own) had plans to introduce a Ffestiniog double Fairlie, which I’m pretty sure was going to be 009 and not H0e (though it would have pre-dated the current RTR 009 from UK manufacturers). The Ffestiniog England produced currently with Peco involvement is a collaboration with Kato, although I’m not entirely sure of the details of how the collaboration works and how much is done by each company.