RCH 1907 Private Owner Wagons - with added 2024 range.

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

I quite fancy a couple of the London based ones, I noticed Rapido's website pretty much puts every single PO wagon livery in the pre grouping period, I suppose the only real way to guesstimate how long a company wagon may or may not have lasted is by finding out when the company ceased trading, I expect by the late 30s / 40s any pre grouping PO wagon would be heavily weathered / patched, 

 

If the company has an entry in Turton's volumes there will be a company history. The snag is that many PO wagons were on seven-year hire with repaint at mid-term of contract, so it's probable that even if the hire was renewed, the livery would have "developed" by the grouping period - there was, over time, a tendency to larger lettering.

 

PO wagons remained well-maintained and routinely re-painted right up to the outbreak of WWII.

 

40 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

were they pooled for the war effort the same way as the big 4?

 

Ordinary (unfitted) railway company opens and vans had been pooled since the Great War. The great majority of PO wagons were requisitioned at the outbreak of WWII - effectively pooled.

 

42 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

And I wonder for example if Kernow's Moger wagon would have retained that LBSCR branding fading away through its life or if it would have got an SR reband, assuming the wagon lasted that long 

  

Moger's No. 232, the subject of Rapido's model, was the first-numbered of batch of ten built by Charles Roberts in 1911 [Turton Vol. 5 p. 61]. I've not traced the photo Rapido have used but Hudson Vol. 2 plate 91 is of Moger's No. 576, a Charles Roberts official photo of one of a batch of 30 built in 1920, in the same livery style as the model. It's possible that the LB&SCRy branding lasted for a short while after the grouping but Turton has photos of a couple of 1923 specification wagons built in 1928 and 1935 with MOGER in letters four planks high, so I should think it likely that older wagons were carrying that style by then.

 

I think one can be reasonably confident that wagons built c. 1911 were still in service in 1939, barring mishaps.

[Nick Holliday]

The photo of Moger No. 232 appears in Simon Turner’s PO Wagons of the South East, (Lightmoor Press) and the rather unusual squared off lettering is correct for that batch of wagons, all other photos show more normal lettering, as the Dapol wagon.

I seem to recall that some wagons, not necessarily Moger’s, were repainted with pre-grouping companies’ initials several years after grouping - old habits die hard, or perhaps the sign writer copied what was still visible of the previous livery.

[Jammy2305]

Does anyone know what era/time frame the 'Wadsworths' wagon represents? I believe the render has a chalked on date ending in 32 but I can't be certain.

 

- James

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

The photo of Moger No. 232 appears in Simon Turner’s PO Wagons of the South East, (Lightmoor Press) and the rather unusual squared off lettering is correct for that batch of wagons, all other photos show more normal lettering, as the Dapol wagon.

I seem to recall that some wagons, not necessarily Moger’s, were repainted with pre-grouping companies’ initials several years after grouping - old habits die hard, or perhaps the sign writer copied what was still visible of the previous livery.

 

Ah yes, looking at it now: don't know how I missed that in the Joe Greaves index. Of course there's no guarantee the unusual squarish style of lettering would have survived the first repaint. From Turner's caption and text, one learns that this wagon and its nine siblings were built by Charles Roberts to the order of the British Wagon Co., which was a wagon financing and leasing firm, and one infers that they were on hire by Moger from that firm. Indeed, on the solebar one can see from left to right, Charles Robets' builder's plate, British Wagon Co. owners plate, and British Wagon Co. "for repairs advise" plate. 

 

Looking closely at a publicity photo of the model, one can see all three plates but I think the British Wagon Co. plates are a bit on the small side. Fastidious modellers will want to add the prominent chunky wooden door stops that give the wagon that extra bit of character. 

 

According to Turner, the wagons of this batch were sent direct from Horbury Junction to New Sharleston Colliery; if Moger had a regular contract with that colliery, then these wagons could be seen anywhere on the Midland main line between Normanton and Brent, round to Battersea Wharf (by Midland trip) and on the LB&SC between Battersea Wharf and the various South London stations at which Moger had depots.

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, Jammy2305 said:

Does anyone know what era/time frame the 'Wadsworths' wagon represents? I believe the render has a chalked on date ending in 32 but I can't be certain.

 

Turton Vol. 16 p. 119. The caption states that the photo was taken after reburishment by Charles Roberts in 1932; that date is no doubt inferred from the numbers painted (not chalked) on the solebar but I have a sneaking doubt that this is in fact a date; the legend seems to me to read 117/2/32 or possibly 167/2/32; a photo of No. 53 refurbished by W.H. Davis shows a similar legend 6/27 8A - going by the explanation given by Pope and/or Turton for similar markings on Gloucester wagons, these could well be order numbers for hire of second-hand wagons. Nevertheless 32 and 27 most likely do represent the year.  There is another photo presumably taken on the same occasion of wagons 65 - 68 all fresh in the same livery. It's an interesting wagon as it carries a GCR "reconstructed" diamond-shaped plate as faithfully reproduced by Rapido, with 1904 date (which is better going than I can read on the photo). This indicates that the wagon was originally built before 1888 as a dumb buffer wagon, almost certainly not originally purchased or hired by Wadsworths; it seems to me probable that they only had them following this refurbishment by Charles Roberts.

 

So we might be looking at a period of 1932 - 1939.

[Darryl Tooley]

49 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

the legend seems to me to read 117/2/32 or possibly 167/2/32

I looked at Wadsworth’s No 66, which appears as plate 47 in ‘Private Owner Wagons’ Vol 1 by Bill Hudson (OPC, 1976), through a magnifying glass, and read the lettering as ‘HY/2/32’ (the Y being a small one with a line underneath it).  Plate 8 in the same volume shows a wagon with SH/1/36 written on the solebar, which the caption tells us indicates the depot and date of repair.  On this basis, a reasonable hypothesis would be that No 66 was repaired at Charles Roberts’ works at Horbury in February 1932, and that the wagon in plate 50 in the same volume was repaired there in June 1938.

 

D

[Wickham Green too]

One thing to note about No.66 is that it only has one set of brakes ............ if it survived much later it would have needed a second set fitting. From reading Keith Turton's notes, Wadsworths cared for their wagons and this would probably have happened to prolong the wagon's life .......... certainly the example that should land on my doormat Monday will receive a second set and will still be in traffic - just - into 1948.

[KAR 120C]

On 12/04/2024 at 14:35, Dominion said:

The Notts & Derby Pinxton wagon is a joint commission I think between TTC Diecast and Malcs models.

 

The Malc's website shows it as being sold out already but perhaps TTC Diecast have some left.

https://www.ttcdiecast.com/rapido---notts--derby-7-plank-wagon---ttcdiecast-x-malcs-models-exclusive-oo-gauge-172694-p.asp

Tom

 

TTC Diecast do have some left but with postage at £17.50 for a single wagon that’s possibly not surprising.

[fulton]

My other five Rapido wagons now completed for service, being pushed, from the Invicta Engineering Works, to the SECR exchange siding. In reality the board joint does not look as bad as this!

Edited April 20 by fulton
added text

[JSpencer]

3 hours ago, fulton said:

My other five Rapido wagons now completed for service, being pushed, from the Invicta Engineering Works, to the SECR exchange siding. In reality the board joint does not look as bad as this!

 

Very nicely done. And you just made me order another 3... 😅

[Jammy2305]

Me again! (Sorry)

 

Despite repeat searches, I cannot ascertain what era the 'Albert Usher' wagon represents, or which line/company it's associated with (I'm asking with a view for potential SECR running).

 

Can anyone kindly assist? 

 

Thank you!

 

- James

[fulton]

37 minutes ago, Jammy2305 said:

Me again! (Sorry)

 

Despite repeat searches, I cannot ascertain what era the 'Albert Usher' wagon represents, or which line/company it's associated with (I'm asking with a view for potential SECR running).

 

Can anyone kindly assist? 

 

Thank you!

 

- James

Must say I selected the 'Albert Usher' wagon for my own SECR layout, only on the bases that they were a London coal merchant, who could have supplied the south east, more information would be interesting, but the wagon would still have a home on my layout.

[Compound2632]

46 minutes ago, Jammy2305 said:

Despite repeat searches, I cannot ascertain what era the 'Albert Usher' wagon represents, or which line/company it's associated with (I'm asking with a view for potential SECR running).

 

Where are you looking. Joe Greaves' Index has three references: Ian Pope's PO Wagons of the Forest of Dean, which I don't have, Turton's Vol. 8, which appears to be a rare error in the index, and Simon Turner's PO wagons of the South East, Vol. 2, which covers LBSCR territory. 

 

Rapido's model doesn't quite correspond to either photo reproduced by Turner. There's a 6-plank end door No. 519, photographed at Lydney Junction in 1909, which appears to be black, and a Hurst Nelson official of No. 811, a 7-plank end door, unfortunately undated but with single-side brakes, so before c. 1912 [HMRS photo APB615, look it up on the HMRS website]. This is in Hurst Nelson's fancy photographic livery so Rapido's plain black is a reasonable assumption based on the photo of No. 519 - the layout of the lettering is the same.

 

The business seems to have thrived before the Great War and struggled on for a while after. Turner gives some instances of repairs of Usher's wagons, by Hurst Nelson, Pickering, or British Wagon Co., either at Battersea or New Wansdworth, these repairs being at the expense of the LBSCR - i.e. wagons were damaged by that company's rough shunting. One wagon was so badly damaged it had to be sent to Pickering's works (presumably the works at Wishaw in Lanarkshire) on a LBSCR machinery truck - now there's an idea for Scottish modellers!

 

Turner also refers to Usher having premises (probably rented from the railway company) at Battersea, a LBSCR yard.

 

So, altogether, the evidence points to the sphere of operation being LBSCR lines in the London area rather than SECR, but that's not to say that as a factor rather than a merchant, Usher might not have had contracts to supply merchants based at SECR stations.

 

Equally, the Lydney Junction photo suggests Usher may have been getting coal from Forest of Dean collieries - raising the question of what rout to London. But in the absence of any other evidence, he could well have also been getting coal from collieries in the west and east Midlands, Yorkshire, etc., so this wagon can plausibly turn up in a coal train on any of the principal routes from the north into London, in the pre-grouping period.    

[Jammy2305]

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Where are you looking. Joe Greaves' Index has three references: Ian Pope's PO Wagons of the Forest of Dean, which I don't have, Turton's Vol. 8, which appears to be a rare error in the index, and Simon Turner's PO wagons of the South East, Vol. 2, which covers LBSCR territory. 

 

None of these as I don't own them - Mostly online searches and going down rabbit holes, hence why I come here to people far more knowledgeable on where to source such information!

 

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

This is in Hurst Nelson's fancy photographic livery so Rapido's plain black is a reasonable assumption based on the photo of No. 519 - the layout of the lettering is the same.

 

The Rapido model is green, but otherwise matches the photo well!

 

Thank you for the information. LBSCR certainly seems the most likely. I'll have think...

 

- James

[Skinnylinny]

I shall just leave this here... 



https://hmrs.org.uk/-abp615--albert-usher--ec3--10t-7-plank-s-e--811--op--f3r-tare--6-2-2--spoked-wheels--ssdbk--photo-no--s-600.html

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Jammy2305 said:

The Rapido model is green, but otherwise matches the photo well!

 

I hadn't looked closely enough! Turner says that wagons similar to the Hurst Nelson example built by Pickering (implying for Usher) around 1900 were green, so that is as good as one is going to get. No. 519 photographed at Lydney Junction could be green: presented with such a photo, black is simply the default assumption, green being altogether so very much rarer.

 

1 hour ago, Skinnylinny said:

I shall just leave this here... 

 

Yes, that's the photo to which I referred. Manufacturers have in the past been misled by such Hurst Nelson photos into producing yellow wagons with red ironwork etc. but the fact that there are in the HMRS collection Hurst Nelson photos of wagons built for the Caledonian, North British, etc. is more than sufficient evidence that this painting style was purely for the camera. But this something that @Skinnylinny at al. know perfectly well.

 

I've had an email from a correspondent who reads here but does not post:

 

Quote

The photo in Pope's PO Wagons of the Forest of Dean is the same as
Turner's LBSCR-area volume. There's no additional info in Pope's
caption over and above Turner so it looks like the latter is the
single most extensive record at the moment.

The only other photo I can remember of an Usher wagon is a clear view
in 'The Golden Years Of British Steam Trains ,Southern Railway', by
Garrett, Milepost Publishing, 1995. It's apparently empty, in a long
string of wagons at the edge of a photo of a couple SR steam-hauled
up trains on the former SER main line between Hither Green and Grove
Park. No date is given but study of incidental details (eg, the other
wagons and presence of conductor rails) will probably narrow the
time-frame down. The appearance of the trains suggests early, maybe
mid-'thirties to me.

I recall reading somewhere (can't remember where, now) that Usher
went bust as a result of the 1926 coal strike which is consistent
with Turner's note about the liquidation and re-configuration that year.

 

[Compound2632]

The same correspondent has pointed out that I had slandered Joe Greaves' indexing skills. Turton Vol. 8 pp 112-3 is an article on Wm. McElroy & Co. but on p. 113 a photo included as a partial shot of a McElror wagon provides a goodish view of an Albert Usher wagon, albeit at an acute angle. it's at Aylesbury behind a Met K class 2-6-4T, so no earlier than 1925. The lettering layout is slightly different, with more "fine print", unfortunately undecipherable.

Edited April 21 by Compound2632

[JSpencer]

There are online bits 'n' pieces of an Albert Usher Coal Merchant at London Bridge. So this and the above would lead me to think it would be ok to consider a visit by this wagon on the SECR. In anycase I consider it good to have a ratio of say 75% known SECR region types 10% from the LBSCR, 5% from the LSWR and 10% further afield (TBH there is probably more evidence of further afield than the neighbouring lines, but I do have a few LBSCR locos so not too bad to have suitable rolling stock).

 

Some proper Midland Railway opens would complete the illusion though....

[Oldddudders]

I do wonder whether Usher wagons went to Walworth Road sidings, known for their coal-drops, in LCDR territory. Certainly in my early-70s Croydon Control days, the greeting "Battersea Yard - morning figures" preceded a list of holdings which invariably included Walworth Road. 

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

... Walworth Road sidings, known for their coal-drops, in LCDR territory. ...

... though actually a Midland Railway site !

[Compound2632]

40 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

... though actually a Midland Railway site !

 

With Midland engines working through via the Met Widened Lines - right up to closure of the depot, Kentish Town Jinties. The Midland had a substantial network of coal depots south of the Thames, the furthest-flung being at Maidstone. In the 19th century, the Midland had been hand-in-glove with the Chatham, in mutual alliance against Watkin's South Eastern and Sheffield companies. 

[greatcoleswoodhalt]

On 12/04/2024 at 14:03, Nile said:

Derails also have some exclusive wagons here .

Anyone else?

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/GrosmontCrossingClub/posts/pfbid0ng1yR1kD3xbBG1ZPZrvFeEny6ZKLsQnVpzkrLroBRGKSAF8oD1cL8owEANaz5YiQl

 

[Compound2632]

In a twisted way, I quite like it - it's the sort of maltreatment a preservation group might meet out to a poor unsuspecting semi-derelict ex-PO wagon.

[Andy Vincent]

On 21/04/2024 at 10:57, Skinnylinny said:

I shall just leave this here... 

Unusually, the catches for the swivel bar end door closure are on the outside of the wagon rather than being rebated on the inside. This would also mean that the bar must have extended significantly beyond the sides and been quite a hazard to shunters. Definitely not in conformance to RCH standards of any era!

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

Unusually, the catches for the swivel bar end door closure are on the outside of the wagon rather than being rebated on the inside. This would also mean that the bar must have extended significantly beyond the sides and been quite a hazard to shunters. Definitely not in conformance to RCH standards of any era!

 

It looks to me more like a fixed bar with latches; note the bolt heads along its length. How that was worked is a question, since it would seem to need a man on each side. At any rate, the latches or catches are on the end of the side-sheeting. The horizontal strap on the side is probably a washer plate for a more substantial catch on the inside. I don't think there is anything there extending out beyond the wagon side?

Edited April 23 by Compound2632