RCH 1907 Private Owner Wagons - with added 2024 range.

[Oldddudders]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

My complaint is not so much against Rapido trying to turn a penny but rather more against the lack of historical discipline amongst the RTR-buying public.

"Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?"

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, MarkSG said:

I have to admit that colourful PO wagons are one of the reasons I sometimes wish I'd stuck with Big Four rather than switching to early BR 🙂 

Depends on your definitions ........ yes there were LOTS of colourful liveries before the war - but most were very limited geographically. very early BR - and post war 'Big Four' - gives you the liberty to run pretty well any wagon that survived the conflict ...... though you might have to 'add' to the colourful livery with assorted shades of grey and brown.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

"Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?"

 

I'm not entirely sure my virtue would stand too close inspection!

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

there were LOTS of colourful liveries before the war - but most were very limited geographically

Depends how far the customer was from the mine/quarry/ other material source.

e.g. how far would coal have travelled and where from, to the many varied consumers in the Birmingham & Black Country area?

There was a coal industry but nowhere near the level of S Wales or Yorkshire and unlikely to be able to supply all those requiring it.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Depends how far the customer was from the mine/quarry/ other material source.

e.g. how far would coal have travelled and where from, to the many varied consumers in the Birmingham & Black Country area?

There was a coal industry but nowhere near the level of S Wales or Yorkshire and unlikely to be able to supply all those requiring it.

 

But it depended what sort of coal customers needed - house, gas, coking... 

 

So. quite apart from coal being consumed by Birmingham's inhabitants and industries, one could have seen passing through the city train-loads of gas coal from the East Midlands or South Yorkshire heading for gas works in Worcestershire, Gloucestershire, and beyond passing train-loads of South Wales anthracite for the Burton breweries.

 

The Cannock Chase and North Warwickshire coalfields had pretty large output, much of which travelled south.

Edited March 8 by Compound2632

[GMKAT7]

Good morning folks,

 

To back up Stephen's point, the John Arkell/Lightmoor Press book on Private Owner Wagons of the South East has an interesting photo on page 4.

 

It shows the yard at High Brooms Station with a collection of loaded opens, full of 'black diamonds ', amongst which are a Coventry Colliery wagon and a LMS wagon.

Confirming the Midlands coal fields supplied the South East.

 

Edit: The photo caption states the date as late 1930s.

 

Several PO vans in the book as well 😀

 

Cheers, Nigel.

Edited March 9 by GMKAT7
Added info.

[41516]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

passing train-loads of South Wales anthracite for the Burton breweries.

 

A little strong perhaps.  At the turn of the century, Bass was using around 8000 tons of anthracite per year, so a rough average being 15 10 ton wagons per week where annual output was ~1.3 million barrels.  At the same time there were recieving "40 trucks of coal and 86 trucks of coal dust"* from local colleries per week.

 

Even if you pro-rata out a similar usage to all of the smaller breweries (Bass producing about the same as the next 4 largest Burton Breweries combined at the time), it's not a huge weekly amount for anthracite traffic.

 

 

*('The Greatest Brewery in the World' A History of Bass, Ratcliff and Gretton, C.Owen Pg115-6)

 

 

Edited March 9 by 41516
'tern' is a bird

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, 41516 said:

 

A little strong perhaps.  At the turn of the century, Bass was using around 8000 tons of anthracite per year, so a rough average being 15 10 ton wagons per week where annual output was ~1.3 million barrels.  At the same time there were recieving "40 trucks of coal and 86 trucks of coal dust"* from local colleries per week.

 

Even if you pro-rata out a similar usage to all of the smaller breweries (Bass producing about the same as the next 4 largest Burton Breweries combined at the time), it's not a huge weekly amount for anthracite traffic.

 

 

*('The Greatest Brewery in the World' A History of Bass, Ratcliff and Gretton, C.Owen Pg115-6)

 

My comment was prompted by having recently re-read MR Traffic Committee minute 19163 of 16 June 1874 (the context being the take-over of the Swansea Vale Railway) which, whilst not justifying 'train loads' might at least be of interest to you:

 

Wagons for Anthracite Coal

                              It was reported that in consequence of the general traffic not being so heavy, the Company had Wagons which could be available for the conveyance of Anthracite Coal from Wales to Burton, and that as Messrs Bass & Coy required to get a considerable quantity from there, up to the end of September, arrangements had been made for supplying the Company’s Trucks for the purpose, notice having been given to the London & North Western and Great Western Comps of the intention to do so, and to terminate for that period the arrangement made, when the Companies had no Wagons to spare, not to supply wagons for this traffic.

                              Resolved that the course taken should be approved.

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, GMKAT7 said:

... John Arkell/Lightmoor Press book on Private Owner Wagons of the South East has an interesting photo on page 4.

 

It shows the yard at High Brooms Station with a collection of loaded opens, full of 'black diamonds ', amongst which are a Coventry Colliery wagon and a LMS wagon.

Confirming the Midlands coal fields supplied the South East. ...

Indeed - without a good quantity/variety of coal available from the Kent coalfield, the South East had to be supplied from elsewhere. 

Those wagons at High Brooms ( not quite John Arkell's local station a it happens ) either belong to large agents, one colliery or local traders - this is probably typical of the majority of local goods yards and excludes the vast majority of liveries - shown in Turton etc. - supplying coal to other yards - even just down the line ! 

[Compound2632]

41 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Those wagons at High Brooms ( not quite John Arkell's local station a it happens ) either belong to large agents, one colliery or local traders - this is probably typical of the majority of local goods yards and excludes the vast majority of liveries - shown in Turton etc. - supplying coal to other yards - even just down the line ! 

 

Just so. I have the greatest respect for John Arkell, Simon Turner, Ian Pope, Richard Kelham, et al. who have produced books on PO wagons by county or region (which I possess and would not be without) but it has to be admitted that since they, of necessity, focus on wagons domiciled in their area, they tell at most somewhere between a quarter and a third of a complex story.* (An exception is Ian Pope's Forest of Dean book, which is the one I do not have, which covers a coalfield area - the same is true of Richard Kelham's Somerset book - but even there, those coalfields were not meeting all the demand within their local area.)  

 

*Though in many cases they tell you with what collieries local merchants had contracts, which gives one a broad hint as to what colliery wagons one might see at or en route to the merchant's local station.

 

PS. A volume on the private owner wagons of Derbyshire or Nottinghamshire would tell a very different story! The nearest to that is A.J. Watts' Ince book, which gives one a good glimpse of the Wigan coalfield - and a snip at £7 plus P&P from the HMRS - and valuable not only for its photos but also drawings and possibly the best readily-accessible history of the RCH PO wagon specifications. 

Edited March 9 by Compound2632

[Star-rider]

This is an interesting discussion regarding what coal wagons might have plied their trade and has motivated me to read up a little more when I can.

 

So far I have resisted the PO offering from Rapido, nothing seemed “local” to me, but reading though the observations above, maybe I’m being too parochial.

 

I was considering selling on a lot of my South Wales liveried wagons in the belief that most of them would have spent their lives simply working from a colliery, running down a valley and discharging their load at a Swansea or Newport for export. Based on the comments above perhaps some of these may indeed have trundled up through the Black Country.

 

I’d considered getting a few wagons marked up for the Earl of Dudley’s railway which ran close to where I live, but then reflected that they may have simply ran between the Earl’s Baggeridge Colliery and his Round Oak Steelworks and not on the wider network.

 

Perhaps I need to get down the local library…

[Wickham Green too]

5 minutes ago, Star-rider said:

... a few wagons marked up for the Earl of Dudley’s railway ... they may have simply ran between the Earl’s Baggeridge Colliery and his Round Oak Steelworks and not on the wider network. ...

If there's a plate on the solebar the shape of a London TransporT bullseye roundel they're registered to run on the 'main line'. 

[ChrisN]

As for the Cambrian there is a Mike Morton-Lloyd book that has images of those seen on the line, plus a list of local PO wagon owners, with or without photos.  This means that the likelihood of other PO wagons is unknown, perhaps I should look at other PO books.  However, this has not stopped me ordering two wagons, that it is not completely impossible to believe that they turned up on the line.  I have ordered these to support Rapido in the introduction of these wagons, as I want to encourage manufacturers in the production of pre-grouping stock.

 

It may be that they may be encouraged to produce in future wagons for the Vauxhall Colliery, Ruabon, the Ruabon Coal and Coke Co., Cannock Case Colliery Co., Wigan Coal and Iron Co., Black Park Colliery and Westminster Colliery.  Any colliery around North Wales and surrounding areas seem appropriate.

 

Given enough encouragement with these they may even produce a Sharp Stewart 2-4-0, or 0-6-0.  I can always dream.

[41516]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

MR Traffic Committee minute 19163 of 16 June 1874

 

Would be interesting to know how long that arrangement lasted. 

 

One may suggest that the arrangement may have been helped by Michael Thomas Bass being a substaintial investor in the Midland, having 90% of outward trade brewery from Bass, Ratcliff and Gretton carried by the Midland and also being MP for Derby 1848-1883...  (he also turned down Directorship with the Midland, something his son, Michael Arthur, did not).

[JSpencer]

I am wanting to add more PO wagons of Rapidos, so far only 2 on order in PO colours (along with 11 SECR ones, 2 LBSC and 1WD). 

Even with the excellent John Arkell book, I have not been able to determine any of the others appearing in the south east.

 

My desire is to replace a dozen old generic Dapol and Bachmann POs with big couplings and plastic wheels....

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, JSpencer said:

Bachmann POs with big couplings and plastic wheels....

Really?

Never had any with plastic wheels, even the 33xxx series as received from Mainline.

Split axles Yes.

[melmerby]

Here's a nice photo with a variety of POs and company wagons:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrrm881e.htm

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Here's a nice photo with a variety of POs and company wagons:

 

Late 1920s, they tell us. Note the ex-LNWR D84 open still with LNWR lettering. Also various Rapido products including a Caledonian van. 

 

A curiosity is the ex-Midland D307 sleeper wagon, which resolves the question of LMS lettering on these - LMS on the bottom three planks but not overlapping the drop-side top three planks as the MR lettering had done; the LMS letters weren't as tall as the MR ones.

[Jon Harbour]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Here's a nice photo with a variety of POs and company wagons:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrrm881e.htm

 

What a fantastic photo. Thank you.

 

[Buhar]

Good that they managed to get both Southern opens in shot.

Alan

[Mol_PMB]

A nice rake of TARMAC wagons on the far track, in two different lettering styles.

Below them a Scottish style cupboard-door mineral some distance from home (if it is indeed Scottish). 

[JSpencer]

9 hours ago, melmerby said:

Really?

Never had any with plastic wheels, even the 33xxx series as received from Mainline.

Split axles Yes.

Depending on their age, I've a mix of plastic wheels with metal axles, metal wheels on split axles (that do not exactly run true) and finally metal wheels with metal axles. While some have NEM sockets and modern wheels, the bulk are 1990s products that I wish to replace.

[Star-rider]

41 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

Depending on their age, I've a mix of plastic wheels with metal axles, metal wheels on split axles (that do not exactly run true) and finally metal wheels with metal axles. While some have NEM sockets and modern wheels, the bulk are 1990s products that I wish to replace.

I'm in exactly the same position. I've replaced a lot of plastic wheels with packs of Dapol metal spoked and disc types, but there really isn't much that can be done with the early D couplings.

[gwrrob]

10 hours ago, melmerby said:

Here's a nice photo with a variety of POs and company wagons:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrrm881e.htm

 

Excellent photo , shame it’s not dated.

[franciswilliamwebb]

10 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

Excellent photo , shame it’s not dated.

 

"strongly indicate that the photograph was taken in the late 1920s possibly even the early 1930s" is as close as the website gets, see https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrrm881.htm