EFE Rail Newton Chambers car carriers

[D860 VICTORIOUS]

I bought two of the Southern Pride kits 11(count them) years ago,and as soon as I opened the boxes I knew they were way beyond my skill level. Actually had them on my table at the Alresford event at the w/e,no one even looked at them...

I may still buy a Heljan triple pack,but individual availability is a plus point I think,and I don't think duplication matters.They both appear to be fine models,the blue/grey pre-tops examples would look pretty decent behind a Warship or Western...

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't EFE a marketing brand whereby Bachmann release through their network models developed by others and produced in factories other than Kadar?

 

There is clearly a tie-up with Kernow, and also with Heljan - models from both have re-appeared under the EFE brand. Similarly I think some of the items that originated through the DJM debacle eventually came to market under the EFE brand

 

That doesn't preclude a new model being developed by someone else and released through EFE , rather than by themselves under their own banner. The LSWR 3 car sets apparently shared some tooling with a previous Kernow release and I recall a suggestion that the Kernow name had been found somewhere on the boxes.

 

If these models were developed by Bachmann at Barwell but are under the EFE brand because they were produced outside the Kadar supply chain, that's a new development of the EFE brand I believe? And quite a noteworthy one . (The only alternative is that they were developed by AN Other using EFE as a route to market)

 

Regardless of the ins and outs of origin , if THREE different manufacturers have managed independently to develop and announce models of the same specialist vehicles, of which only 14 were ever built, in a matter of months then the British RTR market is even more saturated than I thought. Someone, somewhere, is going to get their fingers burnt soon

Who designed them and who manufactured them - apart from the fact that it was not Bachmann/Kader isn't really relevant as long as the product is marketable and sells.  Early after its appearance in the marketplace we talked on RMweb, at some length, about EFE's origins and its purpose within the Bachmann Europe organisation.  I can see little or no point in repeating all of that because the brand is not only still with us but is bringing to market models which obviously didn't previously figure in someone else's back catalogue,  In. other words EFE has become a 'manufacturer' just like most other brands in the UK model railway market and we don't repeatedly go round asking which factory they were made in and why that particular factory was chosen.

 

What we need to get used is that EFE is just another model railway brand and it is owned by Bachmann Europe in just the same way that, for example,  Hornby own various model railway brands.  Or the way in which some companies create different brand labels alongside their main range.  It really is that simple.

Edited June 19, 2023 by The Stationmaster
minor (for once) typos corrected

[jjb1970]

I am as interested in the ups and downs of the hobby as anyone, but ultimately whether or not a model is profitable, what factory is making it, what process is used to decide what subjects to make etc. isn't really germane to whether we will be interested in a release or buy it. What matters is whether it is a subject of interest to us, whether the model meets our criteria to buy and price.

 

Of course we want model companies to be profitable for the simple reason that we want them to bring us products, but whether an individual model makes a profit isn't that important, it is overall performance. Within a reporting period things will generally be up and down, some products will do very well, others less so, that's just how business is. That's for the shareholders to worry about. And duplication is an occupational hazard in a segment like model manufacturing.

 

I still think the models look very nice. 

[brushman47544]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Who designed them and who manufactured them - apart from the fact that it was not Bachmann/Kader isn't really relevant as long as the product is marketable and sells.  Early after its appearance in the marketplace we talked on RMweb, at some length, about EFE's origins and its purpose within the Bachmann Europe organisation.  I can see little or no point in repeating all of that because the brand is not only still with us but is bringing to market models which obviously didn't previously figure in someone else's back catalogue,  In. other words EFE has become a 'manufacturer' just like most other brands in the UK model railway market and we don't repeatedly go round asking which factory they were made in and why that particular factory was chosen.

 

What we need to get used is that EFE is just another model railway brand and it is owned by Bachmann Europe in just the same way that, for example,  Hornby own various model railway brands.  Or the way in which some companies create different brand labels alongside their main range.  It really is that simple.

 

Yes and no. For me there's an ethical side to this too. You refer to bringing to market models which obviously didn't previously figure in someone else's back catalogue. The early EFE Rail models included a number of models previously produced by Kernow MRC and Heljan where an agreement had clearly been reached for EFE Rail to produce new versions. However, then came the EFE Rail 143/144 Pacers. Unlike earlier models, Realtrack confirmed they were not licensed models from its tooling. Since the EFE Rail versions use almost identical tooling to Realtrack's, and indeed work with each other as demonstrated by adb968008 above, it is not surprising that questions were raised about the origins of those models and it was almost inevitable in view of the timing of the announcement that the issue would spill over into the discussion about these EFE Rail car carriers. As consumers we are entitled to ask about the origins of what we buy and, based on what if anything we are told, can decide whether to make a purchase or not. 

 

Thanks to Andy's clarification at the outset, we know that these EFE Rail car carriers are a new tooling from Bachmann using a different manufacturer to its parent Kader and as you say EFE Rail should now be treated as just another railway brand that Bachmann is using the bring models to market. Long may that continue if it sees new models that Bachmann can't get produced by Kader for whatever reason.

[AY Mod]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

What we need to get used is that EFE is just another model railway brand and it is owned by Bachmann Europe in just the same way that, for example,  Hornby own various model railway brands.

 

Exactly so. It's also worth remembering how Bachmann in the UK got started marketing items that had previously been marketed under other labels, largely disappeared by that time, manufactured by Kader (or acquired tooling) for those previous brands. Some of those models can trace their DNA forwards to some quite recent lines.

[PMP]

50 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

What matters is whether it is a subject of interest to us, whether the model meets our criteria to buy and price.

 

Blimey, you’ll scare the horses with that sort of talk, I’m not sure we’re  ready for that!

[Paul.Uni]

These are listed as due 'Winter 23' on the Bachmann website.

[Barry Ten]

On 17/06/2023 at 13:17, brushman47544 said:

Didn’t Chris Leigh comment on here a few years ago about the practice across the channel? The manufacturers talked to the various national modelling groups about future plans and there was some sharing of information about potential models already being worked on elsewhere, meaning some duplication could be avoided. But that does have to work on trust - manufacturers wouldn’t simply block a model by saying they were producing it when they hadn’t actually started working on it.

 

Be that as it may, from what I can see of the French model scene over the last decade or so, there's still been a fair bit of duplication between the major makers - eg Jouef and REE both releasing similar-spec models of the same prototypes within a close timeframe, as well as others.

[cctransuk]

Contrary to popular belief, the recent flurry of announcements of Newton Chambers car carriers does not herald the first iteration of these wagons as an RTR model.

 

Remember the Tri-ang bogie, double-deck car-carrier of the late 1950s / 60s?

 

That was nothing less than the first version of the Newton Chambers car carrier - lacking only the later, all enclosing sides, end doors and roof.

 

The model was remarkably accurate, and could be detailed-up to provide an excellent representation of the prototype; (how do I know that)?

 

CJI.

[zr2498]

It's a pity that 2 maroon are pristine, and 2 maroon are weathered in each livery. Ideally all pristine so that a set of 4 could be mixed with some  MK1 coaches. A realistic rake for the average sized layout.

Some renumbering, or perhaps a mix of 1 pack of 3 from Heljan and 1 extra from EFE....... or 2 of each EFE and some renumbering.

[37114]

On 19/06/2023 at 12:43, D860 VICTORIOUS said:

I bought two of the Southern Pride kits 11(count them) years ago,and as soon as I opened the boxes I knew they were way beyond my skill level. Actually had them on my table at the Alresford event at the w/e,no one even looked at them...

I may still buy a Heljan triple pack,but individual availability is a plus point I think,and I don't think duplication matters.They both appear to be fine models,the blue/grey pre-tops examples would look pretty decent behind a Warship or Western...

I built one of the SP models and it got some good comments on the layout but it was visibly overheight and the well was too deep which may have put prospective purchasers off.

 

With an N and 2 x 00 models on the way we just need an O gauge one to complete the major scales, I would definitely buy a couple.

[sjp23480]

Gosh!  Having read the last five and a bit pages of this thread, and risking the wrath of some contributors, that's 10 minutes I could have spent modelling!  

 

I really don't know how @AY Mod does his job and stays sane. 

 

I was intending to order the Heljan set for fear of them all getting snapped up - remember their B tanks!

 

In my opinion we are very lucky to have the choice.   Whilst some of us will be loyal to one or other brand, I buy from both and have no preference.   

 

EFE (or is it Bachmann?) have done us a favour as it seems unlikely either version will sell out on the first pass. 

 

I shall wait until both versions are available, reflect on the considered opinions of the RMWeb cognoscenti and make my purchase. 

 

I am sure Heljan and EFE/Bachmann want customers to buy their products on their merits.  Bravo to Heljan and EFE/Bachmann for producing this vehicle and may the best model win.  

 

Steve

[davidw]

This is a surprising though welcome announcement. As was the 3 pack from Heljan. Three vehicles at almost £200.00 after discount had placed them just about out of reach due to personal circumstances. But at £50 ea purchased over time makes them more accessible. 

When it comes to duplication like this if niche models the winner is the consumer. I wouldn't be surprised if it's left Heljans accountants scratching they're heads😐

[zr2498]

Just wondering if the pic's seen so far are a representative sample of the finished model.

One difference Heljan / EFE might be sprung buffers / moulded buffers (as below) ?

I have looked on the Bachmann web site and that detail is not included.

 

Edit update. I have heard from Bachmann that the EFE model will not have sprung buffers. Rather poor at this price point.

Edited June 22, 2023 by zr2498
Additional information

[D860 VICTORIOUS]

On 18/06/2023 at 02:52, Southernman46 said:

Anyway back to the wagons ....................................................

 

Have seen a photo on t'internet (Andy Gibbs site ?) of at least 6 of these northbound through Dawlish in 1971 behind a 47 on 1E01 which was the Newquay (?) - Newcastle Motorail so their scope of operation also included that which doesn't require much of Rule 1 application to put them almost anywhere - so 3 Heljan and 2 EFE gives 5 individual vehicles ................................... 👍

Splitting hairs a bit,but back when "The Heyday of the Warships" came out Rail Express did a review of the book and an article on the Warships,with several  photo's that didn't feature in the book.

One of these pics was in 1971,of D817 entering Temple Meads on 1E01,which was described as the Newton Abbot-Sheffield Motorail,Several N/C car carriers are at the front of the train.

HTH.

[Michael Hodgson]

8 hours ago, zr2498 said:

Just wondering if the pic's seen so far are a representative sample of the finished model.

One difference Heljan / EFE might be sprung buffers / moulded buffers (as below) ?

I have looked on the Bachmann web site and that detail is not included.

 

Edit update. I have heard from Bachmann that the EFE model will not have sprung buffers. Rather poor at this price point.

There's quite a lot of sag in the coupling.  Wouldn't be surprised if it fould the sleepers let alone the other rails on pointwork.

[Southernman46]

15 hours ago, D860 VICTORIOUS said:

Splitting hairs a bit,but back when "The Heyday of the Warships" came out Rail Express did a review of the book and an article on the Warships,with several  photo's that didn't feature in the book.

One of these pics was in 1971,of D817 entering Temple Meads on 1E01,which was described as the Newton Abbot-Sheffield Motorail,Several N/C car carriers are at the front of the train.

HTH.

Good enough for me ..................... just invested in EFE Hymek 7016 (50 % off at TMC 👍) which often worked the oddly never photographed Southampton portion of this train to / from Birmingham via Winchester & Oxford over the recently doubled DN&S 👌

Edited June 23, 2023 by Southernman46

[cctransuk]

On 21/06/2023 at 20:44, 37114 said:

I built one of the SP models and it got some good comments on the layout but it was visibly overheight and the well was too deep which may have put prospective purchasers off.

 

Having acquired a pair of SP kits, I am looking for a decent drawing of these vehicles - I already have access to the BR weight diagram. Can anyone point me at anything better, please.

 

I'd expect the bogies to have been fitted with 3' diameter wheels, or thereabouts, as the design had origins as an unenclosed freight wagon. If a model were to be fitted with coaching stock 14mm. dia. wheels, this would account, to some extent, for an overheight appearance.

 

CJI.

[Steven B]

On 22/06/2023 at 10:23, zr2498 said:

Edit update. I have heard from Bachmann that the EFE model will not have sprung buffers. Rather poor at this price point.

 

Heljan RRP = £76.33 each (RRP of triple pack £229)

EFE RRP = £59.95 each

 

Sprung buffers will be part of the difference in price. You pays you money....

 

Steven B.

 

[davidw]

The difference for a six car set - which is what I'd be looking at is £100.00

[GordonC]

Is there any obvious reason that makes sprung buffers significantly more expensive than unsprung?

 

I know it has been mentioned before as an example of the kind of thing driving prices up now, but I would have thought it to be a relatively minor cost compared to all the individual handrails and details being added separately now.

[melmoth]

10 minutes ago, GordonC said:

Is there any obvious reason that makes sprung buffers significantly more expensive than unsprung?

 

I know it has been mentioned before as an example of the kind of thing driving prices up now, but I would have thought it to be a relatively minor cost compared to all the individual handrails and details being added separately now.

 

Are you assuming here that the price difference between the models is solely down to the buffers? The Heljan model will have a magnetically attached removeable roof (or something like that), so that might make a difference too. There really are too many unknown variables to make an informed comparison between the models.

[Tony Cane]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

I'd expect the bogies to have been fitted with 3' diameter wheels, or thereabouts, as the design had origins as an unenclosed freight wagon. If a model were to be fitted with coaching stock 14mm. dia. wheels, this would account, to some extent, for an overheight appearance.

I was 80% through a build of 4 of the Southern Pride kits when the models were anounced. As built the model is 4mm over height, even with the correct wheels. There are three places where the error occurs. The most significant is that the well is too deep by about 3mm. then the mainframe channels are deeper than they should be, and finally the roof overlaps the doors instead of being flush with the top of the door.

 

One difference between the two manufactures is the fact that there are two different roof constructions use on the prototype. The lower numbered vehicles have the roof light offset to the right, and the higher numbers have then central in the panel. From the various photographs and lists of numbers being offered on these model only Heljan are doing both types.

 

 

[zr2498]

14 minutes ago, Tony Cane said:

One difference between the two manufactures is the fact that there are two different roof constructions use on the prototype. The lower numbered vehicles have the roof light offset to the right, and the higher numbers have then central in the panel. From the various photographs and lists of numbers being offered on these model only Heljan are doing both types.

 

 

Well spotted - thanks

[GordonC]

46 minutes ago, melmoth said:

 

Are you assuming here that the price difference between the models is solely down to the buffers? The Heljan model will have a magnetically attached removeable roof (or something like that), so that might make a difference too. There really are too many unknown variables to make an informed comparison between the models.

 

no, not at all, but I know it was highlighted as something before like it added a lot to the cost of a model, when I would have expected it to have been a minimal cost