EFE Rail Newton Chambers car carriers

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, Tony Cane said:

I was 80% through a build of 4 of the Southern Pride kits when the models were anounced. As built the model is 4mm over height, even with the correct wheels. There are three places where the error occurs. The most significant is that the well is too deep by about 3mm. then the mainframe channels are deeper than they should be, and finally the roof overlaps the doors instead of being flush with the top of the door.

 

One difference between the two manufactures is the fact that there are two different roof constructions use on the prototype. The lower numbered vehicles have the roof light offset to the right, and the higher numbers have then central in the panel. From the various photographs and lists of numbers being offered on these model only Heljan are doing both types.

 

Thank you, that's extremely helpful.

 

I will report back in this thread when the build commences.

 

CJI.

[Flood]

6 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Having acquired a pair of SP kits, I am looking for a decent drawing of these vehicles - I already have access to the BR weight diagram. Can anyone point me at anything better, please.

 

I'd expect the bogies to have been fitted with 3' diameter wheels, or thereabouts, as the design had origins as an unenclosed freight wagon. If a model were to be fitted with coaching stock 14mm. dia. wheels, this would account, to some extent, for an overheight appearance.

 

CJI.

Below is the link to Jukebox's post on page 36 of the Aberdeen Kirkhill thread , the post immediately below that link has my answer:

 

 

Plus my original post from 2013 (page 21 of the Kirkhill thread):

BTW I used 12mm wheels not 14mm.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Flood

[cctransuk]

The attached article from the 10/1961 issue of Trains Illustrated may be of interest; (MODS please remove is there are copyright issues).

 

I have just acquired a couple of the Southern Pride kits, which I understand have height issues; I came across the article as part of my research.

 

For further references see : -

 

"B.R. GENERAL PARCELS ROLLING STOCK" : BRADFORD BARTON - P48;

"RAILWAYS IN PROFILE No.6, B.R. NON-PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK" - CHEONA PUBLICATIONS - PL106;

"MODEL RAIL" MAGAZINE - 11,12/99,8/03;

"BRITISH RAILWAY MODELLING" MAGAZINE - 7,8/04;

“BR PARCELS AND PASSENGER-RATED STOCK – VOL.3" : KESTREL - FRONT COVER.

 

John Isherwood.

 

[cctransuk]

It has been suggested, either here or in the parallel Heljan thread, that the Southern Pride kit for the Newton Chambers wagon is over-height.

 

So, having just acquired a couple of these kits, I digitally assembled the components over a 4mm. scale drawing and, sure enough, the etch for the well section is 4mm. too deep.

 

Below is the digitally assembled kit AFTER I had removed 4mm. from the sides of the well etch component; it will be seen that the kit produces a very accurate model after this modification has been made.

 

John Isherwood.

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by cctransuk

[cctransuk]

On 26/06/2023 at 13:07, cctransuk said:

 

 

I have just noticed something in the official photo of the completed wagon (above); the upper end doors are unpainted, except the hinges - which are black.

 

The body sides, upper end doors and roof of the TCV were fibreglass panels, which had a slightly brownish cream colour at that time. Fibreglass panels were translucent when unpainted, and were often used for diesel locomotive rooves in order to admit light into the engine-room.

 

In the case of the TCV, the roof had eight 'windows' - four on each side and offset from the opposite side. These 'windows' are recorded as being translucent, so probably simply unpainted areas of the fibreglass panelling.

 

The official photo appears to have the whole of the upper end doors as unpainted fibreglass, with only the hinges painted black. (I had initially perceived this appearance to reflected highlights, but then realised that the contrast with the hinges was too great)

 

It would make sense for the end doors to be translucent, thus admitting light to the interior when closed.

 

If this was indeed the case, it has implications for the liveries of the forthcoming models ........!

 

John Isherwood.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

The official photo appears to have the whole of the upper end doors as unpainted fibreglass, with only the hinges painted black. (I had initially perceived this appearance to reflected highlights, but then realised that the contrast with the hinges was too great)

 

It would make sense for the end doors to be translucent, thus admitting light to the interior when closed.

 

If this was indeed the case, it has implications for the liveries of the forthcoming models ........!

 

John Isherwood.

If the maroon version did have unpainted ends, no doubt they would get dirty very quickly and unlikely to be cleaned often, so it doesn't follow that it would be perpetuated for the Blue/grey livery.

[Graham_Muz]

16 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I have just noticed something in the official photo of the completed wagon (above); the upper end doors are unpainted, except the hinges - which are black.

 

The body sides, upper end doors and roof of the TCV were fibreglass panels, which had a slightly brownish cream colour at that time. Fibreglass panels were translucent when unpainted, and were often used for diesel locomotive rooves in order to admit light into the engine-room.

 

In the case of the TCV, the roof had eight 'windows' - four on each side and offset from the opposite side. These 'windows' are recorded as being translucent, so probably simply unpainted areas of the fibreglass panelling.

 

The official photo appears to have the whole of the upper end doors as unpainted fibreglass, with only the hinges painted black. (I had initially perceived this appearance to reflected highlights, but then realised that the contrast with the hinges was too great)

 

It would make sense for the end doors to be translucent, thus admitting light to the interior when closed.

 

If this was indeed the case, it has implications for the liveries of the forthcoming models ........!

 

John Isherwood.

However that one image can be interpreted, the official BR Doncaster marron livery drawing  states “end of vehicle to be painted black” with an arrow to the top of the door and other photographs collaborate this. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Graham_Muz

[cctransuk]

55 minutes ago, Graham_Muz said:

However that one image can be interpreted, the official BR Doncaster marron livery drawing  states “end of vehicle to be painted black” with an arrow to the top of the door and other photographs collaborate this. 

 

Interesting photo, nonetheless - worth posting for interest's sake. I do wonder why, when the black paint pot was out, only the hinges were painted.

 

Just to be controversial, my two Southern Pride models will have 'unpainted' upper doors!

 

John Isherwood.

[Steadfast]

23 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Interesting photo, nonetheless - worth posting for interest's sake. I do wonder why, when the black paint pot was out, only the hinges were painted.

Prototypes and first builds often differ from the later vehicles in details - 66001 has tail lights wired the reverse of the other 66s, the first MXA Lobster had a red underframe.

 

Perhaps the fibreglass ends didn't let as much light in as hoped so got painted over on the rest, or the type of fibreglass got changed to something stronger and less transparent, or maybe it was... who knows!

 

Without being there, or a written record of a change, we'll probably never know!

 

Jo

Edited July 3, 2023 by Steadfast

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

I do wonder why, when the black paint pot was out, only the hinges were painted.

 

Perhaps the hinges were pre-painted as standard?

[cctransuk]

5 hours ago, Steadfast said:

Prototypes and first builds often differ from the later vehicles in details - 66001 has tail lights wired the reverse of the other 66s, the first MXA Lobster had a red underframe.

 

Perhaps the fibreglass ends didn't let as much light in as hoped so got painted over on the rest, or the type of fibreglass got changed to something stronger and less transparent, or maybe it was... who knows!

 

Without being there, or a written record of a change, we'll probably never know!

 

Jo

 

...... or it occurred to someone that, with the doors closed, there was no-one inside to care whether it was light or dark!

 

John Isherwood.

Edited July 3, 2023 by cctransuk

[Steven B]

Looks black to me:

(Robert Gadsdon on Flickr)

 

BR Blue for the later livery:

("On Tour With the Class 13 Army" on Flickr)

 

 

Steven B

[cctransuk]

3 hours ago, Steven B said:

Looks black to me:

(Robert Gadsdon on Flickr)

 

BR Blue for the later livery:

("On Tour With the Class 13 Army" on Flickr)

 

 

Steven B

 

Please note that I was NOT querying the in-service livery of the TCVs - rather pointing out an interesting feature of at least one vehicle, prior to general service.

 

John Isherwood.

[Metr0Land]

I'll just leave this here.  Click on photo for caption.

 

[big jim]

39 minutes ago, Metr0Land said:

I'll just leave this here.  Click on photo for caption.

 

i think it’s part of RMWeb folklore that this particular photo ends up in at least 3 different threads every year! 
 

 

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Metr0Land said:

I'll just leave this here.  Click on photo for caption.

 

Maximum 30 cars, circa 90 passengers spread out comfortable amongst 192 seats with revenue probably less than a Blackpool South service today… using 2 locomotives, which are not in multi, requiring 4 driving crew (inc “Fireman”) on a 9 coach train.

 

I can only assume the 47’s failed and the BT+ 25 was in the vicinty.

[Southernman46]

Yes but then the railway was a Service then ..............................

[adb968008]

On 11/07/2023 at 22:28, Southernman46 said:

Yes but then the railway was a Service then ..............................

I just rechecked those vehicles looks like a BCK, early FO or an RFO, then a CK, plus a restaurant…

 So it might actually be close to a full train !

 

Shouldnt the RFO be next to the restaurant though ?

Edited July 12, 2023 by adb968008

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 13/07/2023 at 00:17, adb968008 said:

Shouldnt the RFO be next to the restaurant though ?

Possibly, needs the diagram to be sure. Could be the Eric Morecambe explanation, all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order. 

[Flood]

On 11/07/2023 at 20:04, adb968008 said:

I just rechecked those vehicles looks like a BCK, early FO or an RFO, then a CK, plus a restaurant…

 So it might actually be close to a full train !

 

Shouldnt the RFO be next to the restaurant though ?

I've looked at the Marshalling booklet for 1967 and this is what it states:

So the leading coach is a BSO (not a BCK as no toilet window is visible to the left of the passenger windows). The third coach could be a later style FO but only one door appears to be branded for first class so, as you have stated, it seems to be a CK instead of an FK and in the wrong place (not surprising with it being a substitute).

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Flood

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Just to show we all have different criteria when pre ordering models, I have settled on the Heljan version based purely on my past experience of EFE/Oxford playing fast and loose with bogie, wheel and axle dimensions making conversion to EM a harder job than it should be.

 

Mike.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Just to show we all have different criteria when pre ordering models, I have settled on the Heljan version based purely on my past experience of EFE/Oxford playing fast and loose with bogie, wheel and axle dimensions making conversion to EM a harder job than it should be.

 

Mike.

... perfectly sensible if that's your requirement.

But it does mean there's no such thing as RTR in a scale where you have to replace the wheelsets before you can use it!

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

But it does mean there's no such thing as RTR in a scale where you have to replace the wheelsets before you can use it!

 

There is at least one enlightened manufacturer!

 

Mike.

[Graham_Muz]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Just to show we all have different criteria when pre ordering models, I have settled on the Heljan version based purely on my past experience of EFE/Oxford playing fast and loose with bogie, wheel and axle dimensions making conversion to EM a harder job than it should be.

 

Mike.

 

The EFE Newton Chambers have 26mm pin point axles.

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 minute ago, Graham_Muz said:

 

The EFE Newton Chambers have 26mm pin point axles.

 

Wow, thanks Graham.

Are they 14mm diameter with a decent wheel face profile do you know?

They must have had some input from Bachmann presumably?

 

Mike.