Mass cull of ticket offices

[figworthy]

On 12/07/2023 at 20:21, ruggedpeak said:

I recently arrived as expat into Gatwick and had to join the chaos/queue for the machine only ticket office at Gatwick Airport Rail Station to collect tickets bought online via national rail website. If ever there was a good example of somewhere needing a proper ticket office, that is it. A large proportion of the customers are foreign travellers and having got off the plane they then join a queue to then go and try and interact with a computer terminal they've never seen before to buy rail tickets. As is quite well known rail ticketing is one of the more [unnecessarily] complex things in the Universe, so the outcome should be predictable. Had to queue for ages watching non-natives grapple with the "technology" knowing it should only take me 10 seconds or so to get my ticket. Lots of staff with mini iPads or something intervening constantly to get people to buy the tickets they needed. I suspect many just wanted to go to London but even that is not straightforward, and the time taken in the queue depends on how long it took each staff member to notice people struggling, get to machine, understand what they were trying to buy then basically buy it for them. The most effective members of staff were the handful who had mobile machines that could sell tickets directly. Far faster than expecting non-natives to self serve. Almost like a ticket office you might say........🙄 Had their been a proper ticket office and some self serve machines the process would have almost certainly been a look quicker for all involved.

 

 

I use Oxford Parkway several times a year, and that has three large touch screen ticket machines (which I'm guessing are the sort of thing that we are expected to move to).  I can't remember that last time that one of the "buttons" responded to the first or second "push", and they regularly have a staff member working one of the machines for customers as it is quicker than the customers doing it themselves.

 

What I doubt any ticket machine could do is sell me a ticket (*) for a journey that I'd like to do at some future point (assuming I live long enough).  A triangular journey.  Local station to Brum, Brum to London via HS2, London to local station via GWR (or the other way around).  I would hope that a ticket office would cope with that with ease.

 

* I suspect that I'd have to buy three tickets, one at the start of each leg.

 

Adrian

[Mark Saunders]

In a similar vane I could starve in a MacDonalds as I very rarely get their touch screens to work!

[uax6]

1 hour ago, Mark Saunders said:

In a similar vane I could starve in a MacDonalds as I very rarely get their touch screens to work!

 

I don't know why anyone uses the touch screens in Maccy D's. I just go to the counter and order what I want in about a 16th of the time it takes to use the pointless technology....

 

If ever there was a case of technology for the sake of it, this certainly is it, although I do get the advantage of being served a lot quicker, as everyone seems to have been fooled into using the screens...

 

Andy G

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, uax6 said:

 

I don't know why anyone uses the touch screens in Maccy D's. I just go to the counter and order what I want in about a 16th of the time it takes to use the pointless technology....

 

If ever there was a case of technology for the sake of it, this certainly is it, although I do get the advantage of being served a lot quicker, as everyone seems to have been fooled into using the screens...

 

Andy G

Before I began dieting I found the screens more more user friendly than queueing up.  You must be lucky that they place emphasis on dealing with the customers who still use the till, we have just the one and no-one mans it, they come from out the back and serve when they notice people.

[admiles]

14 hours ago, uax6 said:

 

I don't know why anyone uses the touch screens in Maccy D's. I just go to the counter and order what I want in about a 16th of the time it takes to use the pointless technology....

 

If ever there was a case of technology for the sake of it, this certainly is it, although I do get the advantage of being served a lot quicker, as everyone seems to have been fooled into using the screens...

 

Andy G

 Genuinely never had a problem with the screens. Fast and efficient so hardly pointless at all. 

I use them as they're much quicker than queuing to order via a till.

[Wheatley]

16 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

In a similar vane I could starve in a MacDonalds as I very rarely get their touch screens to work!

They don't like me either. For some reason pressing 'language' then 'English' usually persuades them. 

[The Stationmaster]

On 12/07/2023 at 20:43, phil-b259 said:

Indeed - it doesn’t help that unlike most developed nations because ‘competition’ between TOCs is the best way to lower prices there are a plethora of fares ‘to London’ available which only adds to the confusion.

 

(Granted having services to several London terminals doesn’t help either)

Goes back way before then Phil.  

 

Back in the 1970ss one of our Booking Clerks -  ex GWR and who had been a Stationmaster in past jobs years previously before redundancy - said to me 'Do you know sir, I'm no longer working in a booking office but am now somebody in a place like a supermarket with all sorts of special offers and reduced fares that confuse even me let alone the passengers'.

 

Now the ultimate irony.  (ur local station booking offoce has been closed for months and was an early casualty in the current round of closures.  However it is on the list of those BOs which are to close under this 'initiative'.  And any and every 'group' with 'special needs' of some sort or another is up in arms all over the front page of the local 'paper.  I even has letter published in the local paper three months back suggesting taht we needed some sort of community idea to get the waiting area (booking hall in oldspeak) reopened and possibly even createan agency to handle enquiries and sell tickets.  Several loclal councillors liked teh idea but then came the elecytion to eat uo their time and then umpteen other things.

 

Not a sigle one off these 'special interest groups, or indeed anybody else wrote to teh 'paper to seek re=opening ogf f teh booking office or the booking hall.  We have gone b now for some months without a booking office.  And the only person who has written to the local 'paper or any local news website in that period, critical of the closure, is me.  What wonderful ammunition for those proposing this sort of closure programme when all these people who shout 'what about so &so being able to get a ticket' haven't said a thing in all the months since the Booking Office was closed.

[Mark Saunders]

5 hours ago, Wheatley said:

They don't like me either. For some reason pressing 'language' then 'English' usually persuades them. 

I must try it, thanks!

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Goes back way before then Phil.  

 

Back in the 1970ss one of our Booking Clerks -  ex GWR and who had been a Stationmaster in past jobs years previously before redundancy - said to me 'Do you know sir, I'm no longer working in a booking office but am now somebody in a place like a supermarket with all sorts of special offers and reduced fares that confuse even me let alone the passengers'.

 

Now the ultimate irony.  (ur local station booking offoce has been closed for months and was an early casualty in the current round of closures.  However it is on the list of those BOs which are to close under this 'initiative'.  And any and every 'group' with 'special needs' of some sort or another is up in arms all over the front page of the local 'paper.  I even has letter published in the local paper three months back suggesting taht we needed some sort of community idea to get the waiting area (booking hall in oldspeak) reopened and possibly even createan agency to handle enquiries and sell tickets.  Several loclal councillors liked teh idea but then came the elecytion to eat uo their time and then umpteen other things.

 

Not a sigle one off these 'special interest groups, or indeed anybody else wrote to teh 'paper to seek re=opening ogf f teh booking office or the booking hall.  We have gone b now for some months without a booking office.  And the only person who has written to the local 'paper or any local news website in that period, critical of the closure, is me.  What wonderful ammunition for those proposing this sort of closure programme when all these people who shout 'what about so &so being able to get a ticket' haven't said a thing in all the months since the Booking Office was closed.

The people get what the people deserve.

[Morello Cherry]

What strikes me as odd is how it is seen as an either/or situation. I travel to the Netherlands a lot for work and use the rail and bus system a lot. You have an OV card which is their version of an oyster card, tap in, tap out on all trains, buses and metros, all companies accept it. A flat penalty fare for not tapping of I think 25 Euros on the train, 10 on the bus. You can also tap in and tap out with your bank card. Or you can buy a ticket (card only) from the bus driver, use the ticket machines, buy online, or at bigger stations (ie Rotterdam Centraal) from the travel centre. All the gates have an information booth where you can get help.

 

So although the 'steer' is towards using the OV card and or cards, (travel using the OV card is cheaper than with a paper ticket), the option to buy paper tickets always remains and there are at bigger stations ticket office facilities.

 

Contrast that with my local UK station where the excellent travel centre/help centre was closed to become an M&S (while other bits of retail space at the station remain empty), a bank of ticket machines which tend to 'bury' the cheaper tickets. There remain a few ticket windows which usually has a massive queue, usually with people who are infrequent travellers who want to go to somewhere (ie people travelling to see family). Don't bother with the gate staff, their main interest seems to be harassing the local non-white teenagers. The station's party trick is for the ticket machines at the rear entrance to pack up during rush hour meaning that someone has to come over with ticket machine and physically sell tickets.

 

There are few points here - firstly the Dutch have a very simple ticketing system. The only thing you have to choose is 1st or 2nd class, and whether you are a child or an adult (when you buy your OV card you can choose). There is no peak/off peak, no via Amsterdam etc Secondly OV card is universal - rather than being something that only works in say Amsterdam, thirdly, although the steer is towards cashless, facilities for using cash/paper tickets remains and many people travelling less frequently there are still facilities.

 

One final thing - children under 11 travel free on buses, trains during the summer holidays.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Morello Cherry

[Mallard60022]

I don't know why anyone uses Mac Donalds!

P

[Mallard60022]

7 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

What strikes me as odd is how it is seen as an either/or situation. I travel to the Netherlands a lot for work and use the rail and bus system a lot. You have an OV card which is their version of an oyster card, tap in, tap out on all trains, buses and metros, all companies accept it. A flat penalty fare for not tapping of I think 25 Euros on the train, 10 on the bus. You can also tap in and tap out with your bank card. Or you can buy a ticket (card only) from the bus driver, use the ticket machines, buy online, or at bigger stations (ie Rotterdam Centraal) from the travel centre. All the gates have an information booth where you can get help.

 

So although the 'steer' is towards using the OV card and or cards, (travel using the OV card is cheaper than with a paper ticket), the option to buy paper tickets always remains and there are at bigger stations ticket office facilities.

 

Contrast that with my local UK station where the excellent travel centre/help centre was closed to become an M&S (while other bits of retail space at the station remain empty), a bank of ticket machines which tend to 'bury' the cheaper tickets. There remain a few ticket windows which usually has a massive queue, usually with people who are infrequent travellers who want to go to somewhere (ie people travelling to see family). Don't bother with the gate staff, their main interest seems to be harassing the local non-white teenagers. The station's party trick is for the ticket machines at the rear entrance to pack up during rush hour meaning that someone has to come over with ticket machine and physically sell tickets.

 

There are few points here - firstly the Dutch have a very simple ticketing system. The only thing you have to choose is 1st or 2nd class, and whether you are a child or an adult (when you buy your OV card you can choose). There is no peak/off peak, no via Amsterdam etc Secondly OV card is universal - rather than being something that only works in say Amsterdam, thirdly, although the steer is towards cashless, facilities for using cash/paper tickets remains and many people travelling less frequently there are still facilities.

Think you've summed things up really well there, with the main points being the either/or and THE SIMPLE Ticketing system.

P

[Michael Hodgson]

16 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I even has letter published in the local paper three months back suggesting taht we needed some sort of community idea to get the waiting area (booking hall in oldspeak) reopened and possibly even createan agency to handle enquiries and sell tickets.  Several loclal councillors liked teh idea but then came the elecytion to eat uo their time and then umpteen other things.

 

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

 

16 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I even has letter published in the local paper three months back suggesting taht we needed some sort of community idea to get the waiting area (booking hall in oldspeak) reopened and possibly even createan agency to handle enquiries and sell tickets.  Several loclal councillors liked teh idea but then came the elecytion to eat uo their time and then umpteen other things.

 

Many years ago a candidate for the local council said that if elected he would get an access to the station opened on the Up side of the line (the entrance, car park etc being on the Down).  He did get in, but of course nothing happened.  He didn't seem to understand that BR didn't have to do something just because of the whim of some local councillor who wants it and of course it died the death.

 

A pity since it would be safer, though I would have had to cross a track which ran round the back of the platform and hadn't been used for years, because it would have saved crossing several busy roads, using an underline bridge is frequently hit by lorries and floods in heavy rain, and the route would have been a couple of minutes quicker. 

 

I believe the idea has resurfaced recently, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

 

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, Morello Cherry said:

What strikes me as odd is how it is seen as an either/or situation. I travel to the Netherlands a lot for work and use the rail and bus system a lot. You have an OV card which is their version of an oyster card, tap in, tap out on all trains, buses and metros, all companies accept it. A flat penalty fare for not tapping of I think 25 Euros on the train, 10 on the bus. You can also tap in and tap out with your bank card. Or you can buy a ticket (card only) from the bus driver, use the ticket machines, buy online, or at bigger stations (ie Rotterdam Centraal) from the travel centre. All the gates have an information booth where you can get help.

 

So although the 'steer' is towards using the OV card and or cards, (travel using the OV card is cheaper than with a paper ticket), the option to buy paper tickets always remains and there are at bigger stations ticket office facilities.

 

Contrast that with my local UK station where the excellent travel centre/help centre was closed to become an M&S (while other bits of retail space at the station remain empty), a bank of ticket machines which tend to 'bury' the cheaper tickets. There remain a few ticket windows which usually has a massive queue, usually with people who are infrequent travellers who want to go to somewhere (ie people travelling to see family). Don't bother with the gate staff, their main interest seems to be harassing the local non-white teenagers. The station's party trick is for the ticket machines at the rear entrance to pack up during rush hour meaning that someone has to come over with ticket machine and physically sell tickets.

 

There are few points here - firstly the Dutch have a very simple ticketing system. The only thing you have to choose is 1st or 2nd class, and whether you are a child or an adult (when you buy your OV card you can choose). There is no peak/off peak, no via Amsterdam etc Secondly OV card is universal - rather than being something that only works in say Amsterdam, thirdly, although the steer is towards cashless, facilities for using cash/paper tickets remains and many people travelling less frequently there are still facilities.

 

One final thing - children under 11 travel free on buses, trains during the summer holidays.

That's what happens when you have an integrated public transport system. And do they have private operators as well?

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, rodent279 said:

That's what happens when you have an integrated public transport system. And do they have private operators as well?

Yes and no

 

Pleas remember that as a member of the EU the Netherlands MUST, by EU law:-

 

(1) Seperate infrastructure and operations into independent and distinct entities (though both are permitted to be state owned companies).

 

(2) Allow open access operators without discrimination against for paths them by Government owned operators

 

(3) Put local train services out to tender not simply have the Government run them (again nothing to stop Government owned companies from bidding and winning as long as the bid details do not rig it in favour of Government owned organisations).

 

However even with the above they still are able to have a very simple ticketing structure - EU law having noting to say on this aspect.

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by phil-b259

[Morello Cherry]

31 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

That's what happens when you have an integrated public transport system. And do they have private operators as well?

 

Yes and the system is the same. So I can start my journey with one company and finish with another it will be charged as one journey. Same as if I go tram to bus.

 

The only trains that are charged differently are the international trains.

[adb968008]

I’m not sure whats going to happen at my local station.

The booking office is obviously going to go.

But the gate is manned today anyway.

 

Are we going to have two people manning the gate ?

 

Tbh I think the station doesnt need anyone at all really, but then if there was a problem with the gate it would need solving.

 

More pertinently I was told (and can see) the footbridge has cracked and been condemned, but as theres no money to replace it, they've jacked it up on wooden sleepers.. not sure how long that can go on for, but its the only way off the platform.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by adb968008

[rodent279]

6 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I’m not sure whats going to happen at my local station.

The booking office is obviously going to go.

But the gate is manned today anyway.

 

Are we going to have two people manning the gate ?

 

Tbh I think the station doesnt need anyone at all really, but then if there was a problem with the gate it would need solving.

 

More pertinently I was told (and can see) the footbridge has cracked and been condemned, but as theres no money to replace it, they've jacked it up on wooden sleepers.. not sure how long that can go on for, but its the only way off the platform.

 

 

Feels like we are rapidly becoming a first world country with third world problems.

[The Stationmaster]

On 14/07/2023 at 19:17, rodent279 said:

The people get what the people deserve.

In this case I agree wholeheartedly - it only goes to show the extent to which those represented by these various pressure groups have not been making use of the railway in the past.  In fact not even making use of it to the extent that they haven't noticed any change.  

 

Professional grumblers but then one of their targets is Goring (On-Thames) and there is an element in that place who moan about everything ranging from GWML electrification masts to derelict a pub becoming a Tesco Local to a proposal to generate green electricity by installing turbines in the river just below the weir.

[6892 Oakhill Grange]

Hi All

 

Generally I am not that interested in this topic.  However my summer experiences may be of interest even if they are in Scotland where the closure may not apply.

 

My daughter is 17 and as we only spend a few weeks in Scotland every year, I thought a 16-17 saver would be the cheapest option to get discounts.  Initially long distance journeys on Lumo and LNER posed no problems, but after a few attempts I noticed that there were no online discounts on Scotrail for the 16-17.  Living in Edinburgh City Centre meant that we passed Waverley virtually every day and we could easily plan to buy tickets from the office.  A gentlemen their told me that the 16-17 was not accepted in Scotland, however he checked the machine and it would / did sell us the discounted ticket with a 16-17 saver on an Edinburgh - Polmont return.  Two days later we obtained the same discount on the same tickets.  However, a week earlier I had paid £30 more than needed for an Edinburgh - Aviemore return for my daughter using Scotrail online.

 

It won’t break the bank, but saving the £30 would count as legitimate tax avoidance as per a different thread.  I am not sure if the 16-17 saver is valid on these internal Scotland journeys, and I don’t really care as everybody involved behaved in the correct way but:

 

1.  I object to being ripped off by the web and the machines (and refresh my browser history frequently when booking flights(,

2. My 12 year old is going to Aviemore and back for a quid rather than £60

 

It seems that having a face to speak to may be of more value to the customer than the supplier!

 

Adrian of Muscat

 

[andyman7]

2 hours ago, 6892 Oakhill Grange said:

Hi All

 

Generally I am not that interested in this topic.  However my summer experiences may be of interest even if they are in Scotland where the closure may not apply.

 

My daughter is 17 and as we only spend a few weeks in Scotland every year, I thought a 16-17 saver would be the cheapest option to get discounts.  Initially long distance journeys on Lumo and LNER posed no problems, but after a few attempts I noticed that there were no online discounts on Scotrail for the 16-17.  Living in Edinburgh City Centre meant that we passed Waverley virtually every day and we could easily plan to buy tickets from the office.  A gentlemen their told me that the 16-17 was not accepted in Scotland, however he checked the machine and it would / did sell us the discounted ticket with a 16-17 saver on an Edinburgh - Polmont return.  Two days later we obtained the same discount on the same tickets.  However, a week earlier I had paid £30 more than needed for an Edinburgh - Aviemore return for my daughter using Scotrail online.

 

It won’t break the bank, but saving the £30 would count as legitimate tax avoidance as per a different thread.  I am not sure if the 16-17 saver is valid on these internal Scotland journeys, and I don’t really care as everybody involved behaved in the correct way but:

 

1.  I object to being ripped off by the web and the machines (and refresh my browser history frequently when booking flights(,

2. My 12 year old is going to Aviemore and back for a quid rather than £60

 

It seems that having a face to speak to may be of more value to the customer than the supplier!

 

Adrian of Muscat

 

The English 16-17 Saver card is not supposed to be valid in Scotland. These are Government funded and as transport is a devolved function Scotland has its own scheme. So rather than being ripped off you've managed to benefit over and above the entitlement. It's an interesting one whether the 'save the ticket office' campaign could also promote the fact that human intervention can make errors in your favour that the internet doesn't 🙂

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, andyman7 said:

The English 16-17 Saver card is not supposed to be valid in Scotland. These are Government funded and as transport is a devolved function Scotland has its own scheme. So rather than being ripped off you've managed to benefit over and above the entitlement. It's an interesting one whether the 'save the ticket office' campaign could also promote the fact that human intervention can make errors in your favour that the internet doesn't 🙂

It is a sad fact of railway life that there cab n be, and have been booking office clerks who get things wrong - and that goes right back to BR days when some things were even more complicated than they are now.  There can be an awful to know ina role like that and unless there is instant machine based infornmation errors could occur.

 

However don't forget that the room for error has now largely been transferred from the person behind the booking office or travel centre counter to those who enter the information into the systems - and they're also human (at the moment).  Public timetables, now mainly online still appear with mistakes in them - just as they used to 50 or 60 years ago when they were on printed paper.

[jjb1970]

As a few others have pointed out, the impact of a cull will be largely dependent on how confident people are about using rail services.

 

There will be many users for whom this won't matter. People who are happy to use on-line tools, know how to access the best tickets, are happy to use ticket machines etc. If you look around stations today, even where there are staffed ticket counters plenty of people go to the machines to either buy or collect tickets. For these people whether there is a staffed ticket office is probably irrelevant.

 

On the other hand there are infrequent users of rail services, or people less confident about buying tickets for whom a staffed ticket office is beneficial. Shutting ticket offices may well drive some of them away.

 

I guess it largely depends on how you view the railways. If it is a business, then whether to keep staffed ticket offices is a cost benefit decision, if the cost of keeping them open is justified by sales then keep them. Otherwise close them. If we still see an element of social service, and/or are serious about getting people out of cars and onto trains when they travel then anything that helps that cause (such as staffed ticket offices) needs very careful consideration before ditching.

 

I'm not sure I see the age thing as that important, it may have been the case 25 years ago that older people were less willing to use the Internet to buy tickets, look for travel info etc but these days most OAPs I know are quite happy to use technology.

 

A bigger question is where people fit into the future. We're already at a point where human kind is increasingly obsolescent in many commercial and business activities, so what do we want people (especially young people) to do with their lives? I live in an extremely advanced society which has deliberately chosen to retain station staff and staffed booking offices at stations as much because it is seen as better for society to maintain opportunities for people (it's not just the MRT, it's across the board) rather than automating and de-manning everything. I can't help thinking they have a better approach than we do to it.

[jjb1970]

On 16/07/2023 at 05:30, rodent279 said:

Feels like we are rapidly becoming a first world country with third world problems.

 

Many countries which people in the western bubble dismiss as third world manage to do a lot of these things a lot better than many of those who look down on them.