Children's 'step-ups' at exhibitions - advice please

[Mike_Walker]

36 minutes ago, durham light infantry said:

 

Yes it would. The legal profession would have a field day with this. As you rightly say it would have to be fit for use, but it would have to be properly used too.  Did you explain how to properly and safely use it, did you provide training on its use? If you didn't you are liable in the eyes of the law. Has your waiver been passed as a legally binding contract? Again you would be liable.

 

Common sense in these things disappeared years ago unfortunately. The internet and entitled people means we are always going to have to provide for the possibility of an accident in a litigious society.

Not in the context of a model show but we have had similar issues with Swindon Panel at Didcot.  Visitors of all ages are encouraged to have a go but the height and width of the panel presents a challenge for younger children to reach the back parts.  We have debated the issue and taken into account the legal aspects - something taken very seriously across the Didcot site for obvious reasons.  The legal advice was that if we provide any form of step up, which we do, it must be clearly pointed out that use is at the parent's risk and it is their responsibility to supervise the child.  We are supposed to point this out each time.

 

I agree that modern parental standards can be abysmal.  Whilst some children and their parents are genuinely absorbed by the panel and its operation a small number are not.  They allow their offspring to turn knobs and push buttons at will, at best this causes us operational confusion (Why can't I call that route? Oh, some b*****'s locked those points the wrong way) or at worst physical damage.  We are not allowed to intervene only ask the parents to stop them which usually results in us getting abuse.  We even had one instance where a parent lifted a child up onto the panel so he could run along it - again our protests were met with foul mouthed abuse and actual threats!

 

Back when I were a lad my parents wouldn't have cared if the exhibitor gave me a clip round the ear - if not they would have done it.  Not that I'd have thought of touching without invitation.  How times change.

[durham light infantry]

43 minutes ago, Not Jeremy said:

Best just not to go to any shows, stay at home and enjoy discussions on RMweb about why you did, or didn't, or something else, etc

 

Repeat ad nauseam.

 

Job done!

 

 

 

I wish we could all go back to 1953, when the Church clock stands at Ten to Three and there is Honey for tea. But it's 2023 and the world is a strange place.

 

We can all quote the last 2 lines of "Grantchester" but don't forget the line before them;

 

Say, is there Beauty yet to find?
And Certainty? and Quiet kind?
Deep meadows yet, for to forget
The lies, and truths, and pain? . . . oh! yet
Stands the Church clock at ten to three?
And is there honey still for tea?

[Phil Parker]

21 minutes ago, durham light infantry said:

I wish we could all go back to 1953,

 

When UK life expectancy was just under 70...

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I've watched parents wander off and leave their kids on these things, at least once with disastrous consequences. You are right, they should be responsible, but I wouldn't bank on it.

AKA FREE CHILD CARE, what could be better? OK, not free because they need to buy tickets, but it's still cheap care.

 

Certainly we get that at our miniature railway, where the parents go off drinking around the BBQ.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

5 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

When UK life expectancy was just under 70...

 

Wow! I'm ten days ahead of the game then! Result!!

 

 

 

[kevinlms]

The insurance company that does the public liability for most miniature railways in Australia, has written to the association, stating that there is a large rise in the premiums. This is because for the past 2 years, the amount paid out on claims, has exceeded the total premiums received by them, from across the country.

 

Now that is a clear message to lift our collective game and make sure that any public running complies to the rules, that we are all supposed to abid by. The insurers have sent out, a list of requirements, such as safety checks, of which any club choosing to ignore, is risking denial of future inclusion.

 

As to the point of this thread, any layout supplied steps, would I suspect be a significant risk to any user and if they could say 'no one told me that I might fall off', the owner could be on risky grounds.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

18 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

As to the point of this thread, any layout supplied steps, would I suspect be a significant risk to any user and if they could say 'no one told me that I might fall off', the owner could be on risky grounds.

 

I suspect that you're right. I would like to think that a club getting a signature regarding H&S issues would get suitable cover, but a layout owner like me with 20ft frontage would not be able to do that paperwork nor keep control of such 'step-ups' if they were to provide their own and so I won't be going that route.

 

I think the 'issue' at Keighley was rather unusual in that there was a very large number of families with young children - baring in mind that the show was held in a garden centre and I think a lot of visitors were visiting the garden centre as a family and then decided to go on to the exhibition as an 'add-on'. Consequently  i) there were a lot more younger children than usual ii) the parents were not experienced exhibition visitors and so not prepared for the step-up issue.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by TEAMYAKIMA

[Steven B]

1 hour ago, Mike_Walker said:

Back when I were a lad my parents wouldn't have cared if the exhibitor gave me a clip round the ear - if not they would have done it.  Not that I'd have thought of touching without invitation.  How times change.

 

Yes, we now live in a world where the physical abuse of children isn't tolerated.

There are plenty of well behaved kids in schools today - probably a similar proportion to the 1950s. Badly behaved children don't start behaving well with the threat of violence. If people did there would never have been any murders prior to capital punishment being abolished.

 

I've been taking my now seven year old to exhibitions since she was a few months old. We usually take a step (unless we know we're going to a show where they're available to borrow). It's hard work keeping their interest up (counting wagons is always fun) but can be made much easier when exhibitors engage with the child. It doesn't take much but it makes the child and parents life better and probably helps relieve the boredom that can creep up on an operator later on in the day.

 

Steven B.

[Phil Parker]

34 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

As to the point of this thread, any layout supplied steps, would I suspect be a significant risk to any user and if they could say 'no one told me that I might fall off', the owner could be on risky grounds.

 

And ultimately, "I suspect" is doing a lot of heavy lifting. If you are relying on public liability insurance, the right thing to do is ask your insurance company. That's more applicable to clubs than layouts, but probably does make getting people to sign something for the steps a wise move, not just to ensure you get the steps back. There is almost certainly (more heavy lifting) a phrase that can be included on the page to cover you. If the parents don't read it, that's their problem.

[kevinlms]

12 minutes ago, Steven B said:

 

Yes, we now live in a world where the physical abuse of children isn't tolerated.

There are plenty of well behaved kids in schools today - probably a similar proportion to the 1950s. Badly behaved children don't start behaving well with the threat of violence. If people did there would never have been any murders prior to capital punishment being abolished.

 

I've been taking my now seven year old to exhibitions since she was a few months old. We usually take a step (unless we know we're going to a show where they're available to borrow). It's hard work keeping their interest up (counting wagons is always fun) but can be made much easier when exhibitors engage with the child. It doesn't take much but it makes the child and parents life better and probably helps relieve the boredom that can creep up on an operator later on in the day.

 

Steven B.

Regards counting wagons, when the train is around the other side of an oval, stop it and add or subtract a couple, then play with their minds, as to whether they counted properly!

 

Obviously works better if they can't see the train stop.

Edited July 18, 2023 by kevinlms
More info

[298]

If you can't bring the eyes up to the layout height, then bring the layout down to their eye level...:

 

 

 

Obviously wheelchair users are also in need of a good view and it's fun to confuse people now that I can alter the height with a remote control, but this was probably one of my stupider ideas....

 

 

 

 

[Gt.Shefford]

How about a periscope instead, then it could be offered to anyone who needed it (small child, wheelchair user, etc) 

 

 

 

[Barclay]

Our recently-departed and much-missed friend Geoff Ashdown used to take a step of his own making when exhibiting Tower Pier. On one occasion he was astonished to see a customer taking it with them when they moved away, presumably thinking it would be useful for viewing other layouts! He had to chase after them to retrieve it.

[Mike_Walker]

1 hour ago, Steven B said:

be made much easier when exhibitors engage with the child. It doesn't take much but it makes the child and parents life better and probably helps relieve the boredom that can creep up on an operator later on in the day.

 

Steven B.

But we are advised not to engage directly with the child in case it is misconstrued by the parents and only do it if they encourage us to do so.  

 

The whole thing is becoming a legal minefield.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

49 minutes ago, 298 said:

If you can't bring the eyes up to the layout height, then bring the layout down to their eye level...:

 

Obviously wheelchair users are also in need of a good view and it's fun to confuse people now that I can alter the height with a remote control, but this was probably one of my stupider ideas....

 

Absolutely brilliant idea, but not an easy option for me with my 26ft x 10ft layout.

 

TBH I know of your layout, but I can't remember if I've seen it in the flesh or just on YOUTUBE BRILLIANT!

Edited July 18, 2023 by TEAMYAKIMA

[Not Jeremy]

2 hours ago, durham light infantry said:

 

oh! yet

Stands the Church clock at ten to three?
And is there honey still for tea?

Honey’s off dear……

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Not Jeremy
un quoting

[4069]

Pendon provides portable steps for children to use under parental supervision. These are issued at the museum entrance. This has been happening for about 20 years and no problems have arisen.

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, Mike_Walker said:

But we are advised not to engage directly with the child in case it is misconstrued by the parents and only do it if they encourage us to do so. 

 

Advised by who?

[Graham_Muz]

2 hours ago, Gt.Shefford said:

How about a periscope instead, then it could be offered to anyone who needed it (small child, wheelchair user, etc) 

 

 

 

 

Exactly what I provide for any height challenged viewers... 

 

When not in use it hangs on a hook at the operators end

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Graham_Muz

[Happy Hippo]

Mention of wheelchair users reminds me of a thought I had for a lightweight portable ramp to ease viewing.

 

My idea was a suitable braced plywood ramp and viewing platform.

 

However...

 

After I had approached appropriately qualified people in this matter, I found out that it would need to be either twice the length of the layout, or it had to turn back on itself.  This would have created an 8 foot wide lump in front of the layout which had to be kept clear except for  the wheelchair user(s).

 

It also required rails and guards to prevent a poorly driven or guided wheelchair from tipping off the sides or ends.

 

And of course the ramp would be a potential trip hazard.

 

The cost of such an arrangement was a four figure sum, and that was all before the decimal point.

 

Little wonder I dropped the whole idea.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Happy Hippo

[TheQ]

My club issues folding steps if requested, yes we have to watch they don't walk out the door. The insurance company for the show is happy with those steps.

There's basically no need to worry about steps. Ask your insurer, if they say yes, then issue them , if they say no , well, don't.

 

I've recently been making a display diorama for the radar museum. https://www.radarmuseum.co.uk/ .

So I've done some research.

 

The recommended eye line level for a wheelchair user is 45 inches. But if you have multiple tracks they need to look down on it to see the back of the layout.

For the diorama I've solved it by tilting the baseboard, the back is 7 inches higher than the front which is set at 30 inches.

 

For my own n gauge layout the front of the layout is about 40inches, ( lower at the two harbour scenes which hangs off the front) but the back is around 50inches, while the track is of course level much of the scenery slopes up to the back where the branch line climbs the hillside. 

Only when the train disappears in a short cutting will a wheel chair user or child loose sight of the rolling stock. The fiddle yard is under the hillside.. if a child is less than 40 inches then normally the parent or grand parent can lift them.

 

I have had a minor hiccup at a show where a child ran her hands over the seaweed under the sea. It's made from cut wire, she spiked her hands lightly... she didn't do that again. It now has its perspex front cover fitted.

 

I'm more concerned with boats, cars and other small scenery disappearing into tiny ( or large ) hands at the front of the L shaped layout. Such items are going to have to be fixed down.

 

[Mike_Walker]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Advised by who?

The advice of the society's legal advisers.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

8 minutes ago, TheQ said:

My club issues folding steps if requested, yes we have to watch they don't walk out the door. The insurance company for the show is happy with those steps. There's basically no need to worry about steps. Ask your insurer, if they say yes, then issue them , if they say no , well, don't.

 

Thank you for that. That sounds good if the host club is issuing them, but my original post was about the 'problem' if individual layout owners issue them.

[Phil Parker]

8 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

The advice of the society's legal advisers.

 

Your (unamed) society has been advised by legally trained people that you can't talk to a child in an exhibition when the parents are present? That seems a bit extreme.

 

Is there some text you can quote for us? This would change things, and arguably suggest we should ban minors from shows as it would be impossible to avoid talking to at least the odd one when they are in front of a layout.

[TheQ]

One thought, a security camera linked to a display might work to make the layout visible. They'd definitely have to be well attached to the layout.

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by TheQ