TEAMYAKIMA Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 Let me set the scene. Mine is an exhibition-only layout and I want it to be popular with visitors so that I get invites. At the recent Keighley show there were a lot of families and a lot of young children. My layout is set quite high at 46 inches (it was originally set at 48 inches, but I lowered it to suit wheelchair users) and many younger children couldn't get a view. Other layouts (lower than mine) seemed to provide 'step-ups' for children and some of my team suggested that I buy/provide some, but I am worried about the legal situation if a child falls of one which I have provided and 'hurts' themselves. I don't want to be sued - any thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danemouth Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 I was in the same position as you and my friends advised against providing steps given legal liabilty in the event of an accident. I took their advice. HTH Dave 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PMP Posted July 17, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2023 My layouts have a track level of around 50”+, I don’t supply steps for viewing. I do have a bar stool that the operator uses, and offer that when appropriate. An option a friend uses is he has a child’s periscope toy that is offered to both shorter visitors and wheelchair users. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erichill16 Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 Perhaps its something that the organiser should provide or not at their expense. ( insurance premium) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted July 17, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2023 I take a folding step stool for my 6-year-old. Works fine. Great if layouts have something, but no issues if not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
burgundy Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 I have a 2-step stool that I can sit on while operating. When a small person, who can't see the layout, comes along, I let them use the step stool and insist that they hold the handrail that runs across the back. This has the added advantage that the hands are busy holding on and not poking at the layout. Best wishes Eric 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted July 17, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17, 2023 When my grandson was smaller and I took him to exhibitions I used to take a small folding stool to save having to pick him up. Obviously not suitable for handing out to punters but raised him up by about 9" and easy to carry. Cost me about £4 in those days and also came in useful for some tasks around the home when you couldn't reach but didn't need a stepladder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westernviscount Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 As a visitor I used to take one of these for my daughter to stand on. https://www.dunelm.com/product/addis-folding-step-stool-1000070053 I have been to exhibitions where these or similar were handed out to visitors for free. As for providing them as an exhibitor I would not even consider it as it is too risky. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 I too used to take a small hop-up step when my lad was younger. I put our name on it too so it couldn't be 'borrowed', which someone tried once!! I see it as the parent's responsibility to bring a step if they have children with them. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted July 18, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2023 Fold up step brought by the parents is the best solution, but not all parents will think of it. At the risk (which I can live with) of being considered a miserable old git, it is my considered and confirmed view that model railway exhibitions are among the least suitable places to take small children. They are either interested or bored witless, and if they are interested they are not going to enjoy an afternoon of 'don't touch' and not being able to see anything, and will be trampled if it's crowded; I fell sorry for them! And as for pushchairs; don't, just don't. Older children will appreciate being able to operate Inglenooks. Model railway shows are sadly largely less than ideal for wheelchair users as well. Not really sure what the best solution to these issues is; perhpas low level live video feeds! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted July 18, 2023 Author Share Posted July 18, 2023 4 hours ago, The Johnster said: Model railway shows are sadly largely less than ideal for wheelchair users as well. I've long thought that wheelchair users should be let into exhibitions for free or at least at a reduced rate. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted July 18, 2023 Author Share Posted July 18, 2023 As regards parents bringing 'steps' - that pre-supposes that those parents know enough about exhibition layouts to plan ahead i.e. many parents who are first-time visitors might expect all layouts to be laid out at 30 inches high. Then, once parents know that layouts can be tall, will they be going to enough shows to justify buying/making a suitable step? So, should the host club offer 'steps' - would their insurance cover any 'issues' if they were provided by the host club? Should visitors then be asked to sign for them - to state that they are satisfied with the condition of the 'step' and take responsibility for their child using it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted July 18, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 18, 2023 A folding step stool is less than £10. It’s a sensible thing to have around the house if you have small children. You may be overthinking this. If we’ve forgotten one then I pick my son up, this also works for taller layouts. I suspect smaller local shows may be more of a challenge because they’ll attract more casual families, rather than diehard enthusiasts. Where to put hands can be a challenge, there’s a natural inclination (not just among children) when you’re on a step to want to hold something, so barriers are ideal, but (contrary to popular belief) children aren’t always obsessed with grabbing everything and have a perfectly reasonable understanding of ‘don’t touch things’. Personally I stand behind my son and hold his waist. The biggest thing you can do is to be accommodating. I’ve had an operator (actually someone on the forum) say to me “make sure they don’t touch anything!” In a sharp tone, where there was no sign of doing so. One trader also said “if you break that I’ll have to keep your mum”, which is a pretty heinous thing to say to a 5 year old who’s very carefully studying your wares! I’ve seen more badly behaved adults than children. Other operators have offered him to either have a drive or come see ‘behind the scenes’. You don’t need to do that, because for every careful child there will be one who just wants things to move at full speed, but it’s amazing how a surly attitude can totally sour one on a layout! TL:DR: no special concessions needed, just be a decent human being! 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted July 18, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 18, 2023 6 hours ago, The Johnster said: Fold up step brought by the parents is the best solution, but not all parents will think of it. At the risk (which I can live with) of being considered a miserable old git, it is my considered and confirmed view that model railway exhibitions are among the least suitable places to take small children. They are either interested or bored witless, and if they are interested they are not going to enjoy an afternoon of 'don't touch' and not being able to see anything, and will be trampled if it's crowded; I fell sorry for them! And as for pushchairs; don't, just don't. Older children will appreciate being able to operate Inglenooks. Model railway shows are sadly largely less than ideal for wheelchair users as well. Not really sure what the best solution to these issues is; perhpas low level live video feeds! Yeah, you do! Exhibitions are a great place for young children. Yeah ok maybe you won’t do the full day, but I’m ok with that, and it doesn’t impact anyone else. We took my daughter to see Heaton Lodge Junction before she was 2, she bloody loved it. We then did Warley as a family last year when they were 5 and 2 and they had a fantastic time, and we were there all day. In general most people seem to enjoy seeing children appreciating their work (as they will often do so vocally), it doesn’t just need to be Thomas the Tank Engine either! 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fulton Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 32 minutes ago, njee20 said: Yeah, you do! Exhibitions are a great place for young children. I try to take a relaxed attitude when exhibiting, you have to expect children to be curious, virtually all the damage to my layouts has been at my own hands, while setting up and transporting. When I was involved in organizing exhibitions we had hop ups available, parents signed a waiver (do not know if that meant anything legally) and paid a £1 deposit, was very popular and much appreciated. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Parker Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 15 minutes ago, fulton said: I try to take a relaxed attitude when exhibiting, you have to expect children to be curious, virtually all the damage to my layouts has been at my own hands, while setting up and transporting. When I was involved in organizing exhibitions we had hop ups available, parents signed a waiver (do not know if that meant anything legally) and paid a £1 deposit, was very popular and much appreciated. I try to take a relaxed attitude with children - they don't know better. It's appreciated if the parents stop them though, and (IMHO) good for the child in the future. Adults though, I really get wound up with the entitled attitude that says they are at a show and can poke and grab at anything, or simply not give a toss when they move around swinging their coat over your model. A bit like "enthusiasts" who think buying the odd railway magazine entitles them to stand in the track when a steam loco is passing because it will know that they are an enthusiast and won't hit them... Of course, if you ask nicely, you get a full explanation, and even invited around to have a go with the layout. Back on topic, aside from potential legal issues, I suspect any layout-provided steps would have to be watched. Once parents have borrowed them, they will "just take it down here a minute, it's SO useful." An alternative thought - periscopes. The Chiltern group used to lend these out. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekl Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 I am not sure that legal liability would arise from an accident following the provision of a step to enable a child to see a layout, provided there is nothing wrong with the step and that it is provided for use under parental supervision. Effectively, that transfers any duty of care to the parent. That said, maybe you don't want to take the chance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Parker Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 7 minutes ago, Derekl said: I am not sure that legal liability would arise from an accident following the provision of a step to enable a child to see a layout, provided there is nothing wrong with the step and that it is provided for use under parental supervision. Effectively, that transfers any duty of care to the parent. That said, maybe you don't want to take the chance. I've watched parents wander off and leave their kids on these things, at least once with disastrous consequences. You are right, they should be responsible, but I wouldn't bank on it. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold greatcoleswoodhalt Posted July 18, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2023 @Graham_Muz offers a novel way to assist children with their viewing... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekl Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 1 minute ago, Phil Parker said: I've watched parents wander off and leave their kids on these things, at least once with disastrous consequences. You are right, they should be responsible, but I wouldn't bank on it. Sure, but I think that is then their responsibility, although I wouldn't like to be any part of that, legal liability notwithstanding. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
durham light infantry Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 1 minute ago, Derekl said: I am not sure that legal liability would arise from an accident following the provision of a step to enable a child to see a layout, provided there is nothing wrong with the step and that it is provided for use under parental supervision. Effectively, that transfers any duty of care to the parent. That said, maybe you don't want to take the chance. Yes it would. The legal profession would have a field day with this. As you rightly say it would have to be fit for use, but it would have to be properly used too. Did you explain how to properly and safely use it, did you provide training on its use? If you didn't you are liable in the eyes of the law. Has your waiver been passed as a legally binding contract? Again you would be liable. Common sense in these things disappeared years ago unfortunately. The internet and entitled people means we are always going to have to provide for the possibility of an accident in a litigious society. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekl Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 1 minute ago, durham light infantry said: Did you explain how to properly and safely use it, did you provide training on its use? If you didn't you are liable in the eyes of the law. I simply don't think so - a step is not a complicated piece of machinery, the hazard (falling off) is patently obvious. The child is not at work, so the complexities of employment legislation (where training requirements may be found) don't apply. The duty is the common law duty or (possibly) the similar duty in the Occupier's Liability Act. Neither impose the requirement you suggest. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted July 18, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2023 As with many things its about making a judgement at the time, common sense and courtesy from the layout owner are usually reciprocated in my experience. People have paid to come to in and therefore should be treated appropriately. The last thing I want to do is put a child off our hobby. I've used steps and also offered use of one of our "high" chairs when I thought it was OK. A word to a parent saying "please just hang to your child if I loan you this normally works.. I do operate from the front most of the time so am possibly better placed to deal with these things of course... I often find it is other layout owners and fellow modellers who are less respectful of one's pride and joy particularly when moving around in tight access spaces or the like.... Chris H Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Not Jeremy Posted July 18, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2023 Best just not to go to any shows, stay at home and enjoy discussions on RMweb about why you did, or didn't, or something else, etc Repeat ad nauseam. Job done! 3 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mike_Walker Posted July 18, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 18, 2023 19 minutes ago, Not Jeremy said: Best just not to go to any shows, stay at home and enjoy discussions on RMweb about why you did, or didn't, or something else, etc Repeat ad nauseam. Job done! Wot and mis out on the delights of gatherings like Larkrail?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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