WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Quote

The Claimant challenges the decision as unlawful on five grounds:

 

iv) The ORR’s decision was a disproportionate interference with the Claimant’s right to the protection of property under Article 1, Protocol 1 of the European Convention on Human Rights, 

 

That made me chuckle. Using the ECHR to protect yourself against 'elf and safety gone mad'. 

 

Daily Mail readers will be very confused. 

 

 

[Reorte]

4 hours ago, scottystitch said:

Contrary to Reorte’s aside, and with all due respect for his view, I find it difficult to have any sympathy for WCRC.

Please note the degree of qualification  - it did not amount to agreeing with WCRC,  or even net sympathy in their direction.

 

I've got sympathy because I don't personally have a problem with straightforward doors, and would prefer to live in a world where we're quite happy with them. I don't have any sympathy for them being on the wrong end of this legal issue, which they've had plenty of time to deal with and were trying to deal with it in a manner that was bound to fail - their overall attitude towards the legal side of things. If you were to say they've invited this outcome on themselves I'd entirely agree, and if you've no sympathy overall because of their attitude towards the rules, I'd also agree, because a responsible company works with them whatever opinions they've got.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Reorte

[Reorte]

4 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

ORR should then issue a new exemption covering the period for fitment.

The way they're going about things, not really. They should've seen this coming and they have had plenty of time to address the situation already, the ORR probably won't see any reason to delay things again until they comply, since they've not so far. Whilst I'd far rather live in a world that was quite happy to carry on as is on this issue companies that won't follow the rules, whatever they are, whatever I or they think of them (you could argue that that doesn't apply necesarily in extreme cases in dodgy countries but that's irrelevant here) are almost certainly going to be too casual in general; it smacks of cowboy. The occasional warning and so on, well, that could happen to anyone, but letting it get to this stage is not good at all.

[Matt37268]

49 minutes ago, Reorte said:

The way they're going about things, not really. They should've seen this coming and they have had plenty of time to address the situation already, the ORR probably won't see any reason to delay things again until they comply, since they've not so far. Whilst I'd far rather live in a world that was quite happy to carry on as is on this issue companies that won't follow the rules, whatever they are, whatever I or they think of them (you could argue that that doesn't apply necesarily in extreme cases in dodgy countries but that's irrelevant here) are almost certainly going to be too casual in general; it smacks of cowboy. The occasional warning and so on, well, that could happen to anyone, but letting it get to this stage is not good at all.

Cowboys is one of the politer words I’ve heard regarding those at 10A, 

[scottystitch]

6 hours ago, Reorte said:

Please note the degree of qualification  - it did not amount to agreeing with WCRC,  or even net sympathy in their direction.

 

I've got sympathy because I don't personally have a problem with straightforward doors, and would prefer to live in a world where we're quite happy with them. I don't have any sympathy for them being on the wrong end of this legal issue, which they've had plenty of time to deal with and were trying to deal with it in a manner that was bound to fail - their overall attitude towards the legal side of things. If you were to say they've invited this outcome on themselves I'd entirely agree, and if you've no sympathy overall because of their attitude towards the rules, I'd also agree, because a responsible company works with them whatever opinions they've got.

Noted. 
 

 

[Neil]

11 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

..... ORR should then issue a new exemption covering the period for fitment......

 

9 hours ago, keefer said:

Should they though?

WCRC couldn't/wouldn't even comply with the Exemption already granted i.e. they were given the chance to do things their way (with specified conditions) but, even then, failed to do so.

In an increasingly safety-critical industry, WCRC had already been given the benefit of doubt - not any more.

 

 

 

I guess WCRC used up any goodwill they may have had some time ago. How could an organisation which failed to comply with the terms of the original exemption be trusted to do so with a further exemption even if was time limited? It would appear that WCRC have a libertarian management culture in place which doesn't fit well with the pursuit of safe working practices. Health and safety driven improvements are no new flash in the pan but go back to the early days of the railways. Anyone who has read the classic 'Red for Danger' will appreciate how the search for greater safety has driven improvements over the years.

[BoD]

9 minutes ago, Neil said:

Anyone who has read the classic 'Red for Danger' will appreciate how the search for greater safety has driven improvements over the years.

 

… and with the various powers that be over the years achieving those safety improvements by encouragement and partnership rather than by compulsion.  By the time regulations were enacted most if not all railway companies had accepted them and were at least starting to comply. Perhaps someone should send copies to the management at Carnforth.

[black and decker boy]

ORR doesn’t have the powers / option to be vengeful in its dealings. The JR decision makes clear ORR has to apply the Regulations and follow its own published guidance in a clear and consistent manner. 
 

it has already set precedent in granting all other operators further exemptions based on a committed CDL fitment plan.

 

if ORR were to simply say, tough luck WCRC, we are no longer willing to entertain an exemption, I’m certain they would pretty quickly be facing a new JR and one they would then lose.

 

ORR made clear in their evidence they do not want to see any heritage operators go out of business. They simply want to achieve a better level of safety across the sector. 

[Legend]

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands-islands/6305772/hogwarts-express-flying-scotsman-community-reaction/?fbclid=IwAR2eM3N5BHY8H-ozdCUm8dtg7TZ7IgZOAIoKC_E3ELeCIKQW3XJnF4M_vD0

 

Some local reaction just to give a sense of perspective .  What next the article goes on …….handrails up Ben Nevis , swimmers must have life jackets ?

Clearly safety is paramount but how many people have actually been injured on the Jacobite in its many years of operation ? 

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, Legend said:

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands-islands/6305772/hogwarts-express-flying-scotsman-community-reaction/?fbclid=IwAR2eM3N5BHY8H-ozdCUm8dtg7TZ7IgZOAIoKC_E3ELeCIKQW3XJnF4M_vD0

 

Some local reaction just to give a sense of perspective .  What next the article goes on …….handrails up Ben Nevis , swimmers must have life jackets ?

Clearly safety is paramount but how many people have actually been injured on the Jacobite in its many years of operation ? 

In the report there was an individual who fought past the on train personnel and left a moving train to be caught by on platform staff - a lucky escape as no-one was injured and allowed WCRC to make the claim no-one has been injured.

 

But these same people who moan about hand rails on Ben Nevis would also be calling out people who went up to the peak in terrible weather and risking the lives of the rescue team, swap that to some idiot leaving a moving train and grappling with on board staff to do so.

[Neil]

5 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

ORR doesn’t have the powers / option to be vengeful in its dealings. The JR decision makes clear ORR has to apply the Regulations and follow its own published guidance in a clear and consistent manner. 
 

it has already set precedent in granting all other operators further exemptions based on a committed CDL fitment plan.

 

if ORR were to simply say, tough luck WCRC, we are no longer willing to entertain an exemption, I’m certain they would pretty quickly be facing a new JR and one they would then lose.

 

ORR made clear in their evidence they do not want to see any heritage operators go out of business. They simply want to achieve a better level of safety across the sector. 

 

There is a difference between WCRC and the other operators starting with the willingness to comply with the regulations and the conditions of the exemptions. There's a strong argument to be made that WCRC have in layman's terms 'been trying it on' and that the ORR would be negligent if it permitted circumstances that gave any opportunity for this to happen again.

[black and decker boy]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands-islands/6305772/hogwarts-express-flying-scotsman-community-reaction/?fbclid=IwAR2eM3N5BHY8H-ozdCUm8dtg7TZ7IgZOAIoKC_E3ELeCIKQW3XJnF4M_vD0

 

Some local reaction just to give a sense of perspective .  What next the article goes on …….handrails up Ben Nevis , swimmers must have life jackets ?

Clearly safety is paramount but how many people have actually been injured on the Jacobite in its many years of operation ? 

This isn’t just about the Jacobite (which needs what, 16 carriages?) but about the whole WCRC fleet which seemingly work 5 mainline trains per day and at speeds up to 100mph.

 

WCRC saying it affects over 100 carriages.

 

WCRC own evidence provides that there is already enough profit (£1m per

season) from the Jacobite to fund CDL to those 16 carriages (£30k each = £480k)

 

WCR have just spent a few £million buying a Jubilee, they are not penniless.

[ardbealach]

With my tongue firmly in my cheek - an option for 'The Jacobite'. 

 

Why doesn't WCR seal completely on one side all the doors and windows of the Jacobite stock.  The coach doors on the opening side could have the central locking with an immediate 50% saving in outlay for them.  The train could still be accessed from the door open side to the island platforms at Fort Bill as well as at Mallaig, and the outward Glenfinnan stop. 

 

There is the precedent for this on the Talyllyn and on the old Glasgow Subway trains, both accessed one side only. 

 

And finally attached is an Oz version of the Glenfinnan Viaduct.

 

Happy Christmas [Alisdair]

[rodent279]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

Clearly safety is paramount but how many people have actually been injured on the Jacobite in its many years of operation ? 

 

2 hours ago, Legend said:

…….handrails up Ben Nevis , swimmers must have life jackets ?

Irrelevant distraction.

I've never been injured in a car accident, but I still wear a seat belt.

I've never been injured in an aircraft, but I still pay attention to the safety briefing. I still keep my seat belt on even when the light goes out.

I've cycled thousands of miles on roads, some of them in busy, peak hour traffic. I have been knocked off once in 20 years, but I still wear a helmet, hi Vis and lights, even in daylight.

Read the report. 12 fatalities per year through falling out of open doors prior to CDL being fitted on high speed stock, 2-3 per year since.

It's not whether there's been an accident, it's can we prevent one using all reasonable means.

[PhilH]

16 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

 

Irrelevant distraction.

I've never been injured in a car accident, but I still wear a seat belt.

I've never been injured in an aircraft, but I still pay attention to the safety briefing. I still keep my seat belt on even when the light goes out.

I've cycled thousands of miles on roads, some of them in busy, peak hour traffic. I have been knocked off once in 20 years, but I still wear a helmet, hi Vis and lights, even in daylight.

Read the report. 12 fatalities per year through falling out of open doors prior to CDL being fitted on high speed stock, 2-3 per year since.

It's not whether there's been an accident, it's can we prevent one using all reasonable means.

Perhaps the answer would be to try and mount a campaign to reinstall a modicum of common sense into an increasingly stupid population coupled with a degree of self reliance instead of relying on everybody else to do everything for them.

[Northmoor]

22 minutes ago, PhilH said:

Perhaps the answer would be to try and mount a campaign to reinstall a modicum of common sense into an increasingly stupid population coupled with a degree of self reliance instead of relying on everybody else to do everything for them.

A marvellous idea.

Right up until the point that one of your own relatives is involved in an accident.

 

What is "common sense" anyway?  Did all the railway enthusiasts who were killed or injured using slam doors or leaning out of train windows, not have it?  They knew how the "system" worked and were still hurt, or worse. 

 

And someone had to clear up the remains.

[SZ]

Platform edge doors now, no objections will be entertained, if it saves one life...

[Neil]

1 hour ago, PhilH said:

Perhaps the answer would be to try and mount a campaign to reinstall a modicum of common sense into an increasingly stupid population .....

 

So many questions.

 

Is there any evidence that the population is increasingly stupid? Are we part of that population? Is it possible to reinstall common sense? What is common sense and how would we measure it? 

[jjb1970]

2 hours ago, SZ said:

Platform edge doors now, no objections will be entertained, if it saves one life...

 

I commute and get around using a system which has platform doors across the network and not only is it safer, itfeels much safer. Now when I use crowded underground stations without platform barriers/doors it feels a bit uncomfortable. It's like cars, once you get used to wearing a seat belt it's uncomfortable not to wear one. However,  we are where we are.

[jjb1970]

2 hours ago, Neil said:

 

So many questions.

 

Is there any evidence that the population is increasingly stupid? Are we part of that population? Is it possible to reinstall common sense? What is common sense and how would we measure it? 

 

Unfortunately the view that people are stupid is widely held, usually what it really means is people don't share our opinions on things. I meet very few people I would consider come anywhere near justifying the term. People may not hold impressive credentials, may struggle to articulate their feelings etc but that's not the same as being stupid. I always remember a Noam Chomsky comment that people who dismiss Americans as stupid should listen to sport radio call-in shows and the astonishing grasp of statistics, game strategy and details from games played decades ago.

[jjb1970]

At the risk of being blunt, legal/regulatory compliance isn't voluntary. If a business can't afford (or can't be bothered) to comply with applicable law and regulations then it can't afford to operate.  

[4630]

It’s interesting isn’t it. Through usage and custom we get familiar and comfortable with something that to us feels ‘safe’.  Or at least, safe enough.

 

Then we’re introduced to a potentially ‘better way’ and in the case of platform edge doors an intrinsically safer way.

 

You then wonder why there isn’t more of a push to introduce them subject, of course, to the necessary funding being available. 
 

Leaving funding to one side, which I know is a perennial issue, and a political one too which I’m not going to dwell on, but I’m surprised that there isn’t more of a push to fit platform edge doors on more of the central London Underground stations.  
 

Particularly on those lines where new rolling stock has been introduced in recent years and there is now an homogenous fleet, so further changes are unlikely in the short to medium term.  The Victoria line is one candidate. 
 

And I’d add the Piccadilly line into the equation too once its new fleet, currently under development, has been introduced and the existing fleet all withdrawn. 

[Northmoor]

3 minutes ago, 4630 said:

It’s interesting isn’t it. Through usage and custom we get familiar and comfortable with something that to us feels ‘safe’.  Or at least, safe enough.

 

Then we’re introduced to a potentially ‘better way’ and in the case of platform edge doors an intrinsically safer way.

 

You then wonder why there isn’t more of a push to introduce them subject, of course, to the necessary funding being available. 
 

Leaving funding to one side, which I know is a perennial issue, and a political one too which I’m not going to dwell on, but I’m surprised that there isn’t more of a push to fit platform edge doors on more of the central London Underground stations.  
 

Particularly on those lines where new rolling stock has been introduced in recent years and there is now an homogenous fleet, so further changes are unlikely in the short to medium term.  The Victoria line is one candidate. 
 

And I’d add the Piccadilly line into the equation too once its new fleet, currently under development, has been introduced and the existing fleet all withdrawn. 

Good points.  As an "insider" and similarly leaving funding to one side as far as possible, I'll offer the following:

• Platform edge doors (PEDs) get progressively easier to install, the straighter the platform.  A lot of underground station platforms are curved, some quite sharply.
• Stopping train doors aligned with PEDs becomes critical.  This effectively makes automatic operation essential (the Jubilee normally operates in full auto mode Green Park to North Greenwich, where the PEDs are installed) and means you actually need the doors to become part of the signalling system; therefore cost becomes considerably more than just installing doors.
• Once PEDs compatible with one train fleet are installed, you effectively constrain the replacement fleet to have doors in the same positions.  Alternatively, you need to have an extended, very disruptive changeover (possibly lasting weeks) when the new fleet enters service - you cannot run a mixed fleet - and doors are repositioned.  Even major signalling upgrades are implemented in zones over periods no longer than a weekend.  Closing major stations for long periods isn't popular.
• When PEDs were originally considered, I believe it was observed that suicide attempts were disproportionate at certain stations (the suicidal seemed to actually research stations with the fastest entry speed.....) so the "business case" isn't consistent for all stations.  Does the problem simply move elsewhere?  Surprisingly to a certain degree, it doesn't, so extending them across the network follows the law of diminishing returns.
• Many of the problems PEDs are there to prevent can be mitigated more cheaply by staff.  They are well-trained to spot people who may be about to harm themselves and can also intervene in the more common situation of people accidentally dropping their phone off the platform edge (although PEDs would obviously prevent this).  They can also control passenger entry to the station if platforms are getting too busy, such as by reducing the number of entry gates or switching escalators from two-down-one-up to two-up-one-down.  

So it's not to say that PEDs won't get added to additional parts of the network, but they are not the panacea once thought and bring their own problems and costs.

[ruggedpeak]

On 23/12/2023 at 19:50, jjb1970 said:

 

Unfortunately the view that people are stupid is widely held, usually what it really means is people don't share our opinions on things. I meet very few people I would consider come anywhere near justifying the term. People may not hold impressive credentials, may struggle to articulate their feelings etc but that's not the same as being stupid. I always remember a Noam Chomsky comment that people who dismiss Americans as stupid should listen to sport radio call-in shows and the astonishing grasp of statistics, game strategy and details from games played decades ago.

The same people will fit tooth and nail and more to keep their right to own guns despite clear evidence that the US populace as a whole is too unfit to be allowed any access to firearms without killing each other at a rate far higher than most other civilised nations on the planet. People who can quote sports stats but refuse to accept that an angry and divided society, built on a short history of violence and conquest, awash with guns is a bad thing are probably not the sharpest tools in the box. Individual Americans are not stupid, but as a cohort they are not the brightest people on earth. Being smart at one thing doesn't preclude you being a total imbecile in other areas of life.

 

As for WCRC, if there is a serious injury incident or fatality, they may not be able to rely on any goodwill or benefit of the doubt from safety authorities. Their management appear not to have learnt the lessons of BP and the Gulf of Mexico. Payback, karma or whatever, if there is a serious incident there are a lot of people/outfits waiting to make sure WCRC and its directors pay their dues. Not a smart position to be in.

Edited December 25, 2023 by ruggedpeak

[john new]

4 hours ago, Neil said:

 

So many questions.

 

Is there any evidence that the population is increasingly stupid? Are we part of that population? Is it possible to reinstall common sense? What is common sense and how would we measure it? 

One of the main changes is not in, or to, common sense but the sea change in attitudes that has given lawyers the ability to win in cases where I still think the man on the Clapham Omnibus would say stupid idiot, it was their own fault. Someone could easily climb onto my garage roof, for example via next door’s drive as we are a hill side property, and if they then fell off with injuries I suspect their lawyer might well claim it is our fault for not adding railings. 
 

Overall Health and Safety and Risk Assessments are beneficial as they have reduced injuries and the like and yes sometimes they seem to go to silly lengths (albeit actually sensible when you think it through) such as advisory notices on nut products stating they contain nuts, this contains a hot drink etc., but that is as much down to the ambulance chasing lawyers as anything.

WCRC have known what the rules are but seem, from what I have read, to have been hell bent on ignoring them and then wasting money on a legal challenge. One wonders if they were advised (ripped off) by a legal team who convinced them they could, perhaps even would, win the argument, if so I hope it was a no win no fees scenario.