WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[Michael Hodgson]

14 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Some may complain about 'Elf 'n' Safety but I consider the fact that in most years now, not only are no passengers killed but no-one dies working on the railway either, to be something worth applauding LOUDLY.

Of course part of the reason the number of casualties has dropped is the fact there's nowhere near as many people still working on the railway.

[ruggedpeak]

So one assumes that this is WCR's endgame, trying to force ORR into granting an exemption by moving stock and getting MP's to write letters etc. Presumably the next step is get get one of the various rent-a-mobs to lie down on the track or something equally stupid. The MP's letter is a great piece of Comical Ali work - why shoot yourself in the foot when you can do both feet and your head at the same time.

 

Particular genius in spelling out that WCR has had an exemption for 18 years........clearly won't occur to anyone that that is a very long time to be exempt from safety regs and begs the question why could they not fit CDL over that period. Defnitely no one will think of that🤣

 

The latest letter has shifted the focus away from just the Jacobite (a limited number of coaches) to their entire operation. Have they woken up to the fact that overplaying their hand on the Jacobite and not just getting on with that CDL task has forced them to go "all in" as they have realised the entire business is at risk? Back to the JR potentially being a strategic error. A Judge backed the ORR on their position on the Jacboite CDL, which sets precedent for wider activity. They didn't appeal the JR decision, hardly surprising given the number of grounds they succeeded on....

 

The question still remains, if the Jacobite was taking in £1m a year profit, and with limited investment as part of a proper plan that cash cow could continue (and why would NR not renew the contract if safety was up to standard etc?) why on earth would you put that at risk to fight the safety regulator and spend a lot of money on lawyers and management time trying to avoid the inevitable? Particularly when anyone with any basic business strategy could see getting it wrong could affect the wider business given their dependence on old rolling stock that does not meet modern safety standards?

 

Fundamentally it does appear WCR have bet the farm on having exemptions in perpetuity.

 

 

[nightstar.train]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

thing if it is its really a fraction of what wcrc are quoting, it begs the question why fight it, its cheaper just to do it….

 

Because they don't want to and it's not fair stamps foot like a petulant 6 year old

 

But seriously I think it's in a large part down to sheer pig headedness of the MD. He's run it this way for decades so why should he have to change now? He's not killed anyone (yet) so it's obviously all fine and the ORR are just being ridiculous. He doesn't want to spend money on the stock, he wants to buy a nice steam engine. 

[arran]

2 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

So one assumes that this is WCR's endgame, trying to force ORR into granting an exemption by moving stock and getting MP's to write letters etc. Presumably the next step is get get one of the various rent-a-mobs to lie down on the track or something equally stupid. The MP's letter is a great piece of Comical Ali work - why shoot yourself in the foot when you can do both feet and your head at the same time.

 

Particular genius in spelling out that WCR has had an exemption for 18 years........clearly won't occur to anyone that that is a very long time to be exempt from safety regs and begs the question why could they not fit CDL over that period. Defnitely no one will think of that🤣

 

The latest letter has shifted the focus away from just the Jacobite (a limited number of coaches) to their entire operation. Have they woken up to the fact that overplaying their hand on the Jacobite and not just getting on with that CDL task has forced them to go "all in" as they have realised the entire business is at risk? Back to the JR potentially being a strategic error. A Judge backed the ORR on their position on the Jacboite CDL, which sets precedent for wider activity. They didn't appeal the JR decision, hardly surprising given the number of grounds they succeeded on....

 

The question still remains, if the Jacobite was taking in £1m a year profit, and with limited investment as part of a proper plan that cash cow could continue (and why would NR not renew the contract if safety was up to standard etc?) why on earth would you put that at risk to fight the safety regulator and spend a lot of money on lawyers and management time trying to avoid the inevitable? Particularly when anyone with any basic business strategy could see getting it wrong could affect the wider business given their dependence on old rolling stock that does not meet modern safety standards?

 

Fundamentally it does appear WCR have bet the farm on having exemptions in perpetuity.

 

 

so how do you know WCR got Mps to stick up for them ? i should imagine that came from local Business going apoplectic as  the whole sorry mess   

[Steadfast]

4 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

As far as I am aware, the WCRC Mk1s are intended for vacuum brake operation, so there isn't any train air. This does not rule out CDL by any means, but it might mean that WCRC have to develop their own system rather than use someone else's.

Quite, it makes you wonder if it'd be easier in the big picture for them to get on board with pretty much the entire rest of railway, fit air brakes to their kettles and run the CDL off the main res pipe as all other air braked BR loco hauled CDL does.

 

Several mentions have also been made across the 60 odd pages of this thread of the electromagnet system fitted to the Swanage DMUs and Chiltern bubble cars before they finished. They have the benefit of on board engines able to supply rather more electrical power than a BR 1960s dynamo can manage. Again not impossible, but another hurdle to overcome if not running air brakes and ETH and using the standard BR system...

 

Jo

[rodent279]

Could the standard MK1 dynamo be replaced by a 24v alternator & rectifier, used to feed a battery, with enough charge to keep doors locked for say 3-4 hours?

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, rodent279 said:

Could the standard MK1 dynamo be replaced by a 24v alternator & rectifier, used to feed a battery, with enough charge to keep doors locked for say 3-4 hours?

You could replace the whole body and under gubbins on a Mk1 coach, and BR tried it.

 

But it will all come down to the cost versus benefit of doing so.

[adb968008]

15 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Could the standard MK1 dynamo be replaced by a 24v alternator & rectifier, used to feed a battery, with enough charge to keep doors locked for say 3-4 hours?

Will need to be 24 hours minimum, and in winter…

 

some railtours can be very long endeavours, especially when something breaks.

Edited April 8 by adb968008

[woodenhead]

I think the time will come when the Mk1 coach will no longer be acceptable on the network as their age alone and corrosion to the frames will render them unsafe.

 

Some sort of new or major rebuild will have to come to develop something for the future and it amazes me how on the ball Accurascale were with their Haulmark range of coaches.  If only all those Mk3s had not gone for scrap (or haven't they?).

 

[APOLLO]

Problem sorted !!!

 

 

Brit15

[black and decker boy]

For balance against the WCRC press team (was shared elsewhere by Defiance149 the other day):

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24231801.jacobite-train-owners-criticised-highland-businesses/

Tourism reliant businesses in the Scottish Highlands have slammed the operator of a "lucrative" steam train service for refusing to comply with safety requirements that would allow it to continue to operate. West Coast Railways (WCR) has suspended the Jacobite service, which runs from Fort William to Mallaig in West Lochaber bringing hundreds of tourists each day in peak season.

All heritage operators were told several years ago that in order to operate after March 31 2023 they either needed to fit central door locking (CDL) or obtain an exemption from the rail regulator. WCR's last application for an exemption failed and they made a claim for judicial review, which was rejected. The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) is considering a further temporary application but said it was "disappointed" that the company has not made "sensible contingency plans for the benefit of their customers.”

Businesses say the latest suspension came with little advance warning and has led to cancelled bookings. They fear Summer trade will be hard hit. The service, which featured in 2002's Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets. takes around 100,000 visitors annually to Mallaig over the spectacular Glenfinnan viaduct. Scotrail operate operates four services from Monday to Saturday and three on Sunday on the same route but has warned it doesn't have capacity to cover the suspension and additional passengers.

WCR claim the cost of fitting CDL to all its coaches would be £7million. However, the rail regular estimates the cost at around £350,000 per train and said operators were only permitted to run a maximum of four per day, meaning a potential outlay of around £1,393,960. It said other operators had covered the cost with a "modest" rise in ticket prices. 

Businesses in Fort William and Mallaig say they have "little sympathy" for WCR, which takes up to 600 passengers a day who are charged £65 for a return ticket and £98 for first class. The equivalent 30-mile journey on the Scotrail sprinter is around £10.

Joe Blower runs wildlife cruises from Mallaig in the Summer months taking visitors to the Knoydart peninsula that are timed to fit in with the steam train. He said: “A lot of people come off the steam train, then do a wildlife cruise and grab a coffee or a sandwich then back on the steam train or the bus. So it’s massive for us in the Summer. Over the Easter break we would normally be getting 45-65 people on the wildlife cruise. We are now getting low twenties. 

“Accommodation is full all year round,” added Mr Blower, who also runs a five-star self-catering business. But that doesn’t substitute for 600-odd people coming off the train and going into the local cafes and restaurants.

Mr Blower, who also transports children from Muck, Eigg and Rum to school in Mallaig, said he had little sympathy for the operators of the steam train. “I think it’s outrageous,” he said. “As an operator involved in public transport we are governed by the maritime agency. We have inspections out of the water, in the water every year. If they don't like something you have to put it right, otherwise they will just tie the boat up. How they have got away with this for 20 years, just getting a concession every year and now they have given us a week's notice of the trains not running.

He added: “They have made bucket-loads of money out of the Harry Potter train - they are not short of money. They have brought us a lot of business and we are grateful.But on the same score, they need to comply with their regulations just like I do with my boats. Last month they stopped running for a month because there were a few issues and they had to put extra staff on the doors. They took bookings to fill the train all season and not said anything to the local businesses – they have still not. All we get to hear is from their website.”

Mr Blower said he has now scheduled extra cruises to fit in with the Scotrail trains. He said: "It’s the same track, it’s the same viaduct, it’s the same scenery and everywhere in Mallaig is open. It’s a blow but the world isn’t going to come to an end. We will adapt."

Frazer Coupland, chief executive of Lochaber Chamber of Commerce said businesses were reporting "quite a lot" of cancellations. "Mallaig is struggling," he said. "I think we will be okay this year. The beds will probably still fill because we know it's going to be a busy season and we've lost beds due to the short term let legislation. What I'm less confident about is whether we will fill them with the same demographic of visitors. The people who come on the steam train are not people who come in camper vans. They are a demographic of people who are coming, staying in accommodation, going out for meals and really contributing to the economy. Even though we will fill the beds we might not fill them with the people who are spending the same amount of money. We are not going to fill them with American tourists."

Hayley Cant who runs Ashburn Guest House in Fort William said: "B&Bs were closing at Easter as there wasn't the demand. Now, with the problems with the Jacobite I do feel we are all going to struggle," she said. The [owners] of the Jacobite should have just completed the work that was required and has been dodging it for many years now with extension after extension. They make enough money from it and should have completed it."

Sine Davis, who owns the West Highland Hotel in Mallaig and chairs the Road to the Isles Marketing Group, said businesses were keen to stress that the area is "still very much open for business". She said: "It is devastating for some of the businesses, especially gift shops, cafes and restaurants in the village.

"The worst part of it is the dereliction of communication from WCR about this. They have behave absolutely atrociously and as the owner of a hotel that is over 100 years old we still have to do our health and safety for the sake of the business. The buck stops at WCR as far as we are concerned. They have had years to sort this out and it's a solvable problem and the figures they are giving are a blatant lie. Even if it was £7million, I don't think that is a lot to spend on health and safety.

"Mallaig and this area is not a one-trick pony. It's not the end of someone's holiday because they can't get that train. It might be an opportunity for them to see more of the area. Get the early train, go to the beaches. We are a destination, not a passing place."

Scottish travel blogger and itinerary planner Kay Gillespie (The Chaotic Scot) said: "Of course, visitors will be disappointed not to travel on the iconic steam train, but there is so much more to this incredible area than its Harry Potter claims to fame. The stunning landscapes, the local businesses, and the scenic journey on the West Highland Line are all still there and shouldn’t be missed."

WCR said all passengers booked on the train would be offered a full refund. The company has written to Rail Minister, Huw Merriman to ask for his support in security a permanent exemption, with the backing of eight MPs. The letter states that the company is "asking no more than to be treated in the same way as its peers who are currently operating hinged-door rolling stock on the main line".

A spokeswoman for WCR said: "We understand that businesses were disrupted at short notice, however, this was unavoidable as West Coast Railways had submitted its application for exemption and was awaiting a response from the ORR as to whether it would be granted a temporary exemption, while the longer-term application was considered. The £7m estimated cost of fitting CDL was the product of a thorough business contingency planning process carried out by WCR. With over 100 Mark 1 and Mark 2 carriages to fit with CDL, the significant cost could wipe out our profits for close to a decade.

"On WCR trains, selective door locking (SDL) and hinged door locks are only operated by staff. They allocate at least one steward to monitor four doors per service, which they believe is sufficient to keep passengers safe. They have also carried out a comprehensive risk assessment that found SDL was as safe as CDL."

A Scotrail spokesman said: "ScotRail does not have the additional trains or staff to operate to cover the suspension of West Coast Railways services. This would require the removal of services in other parts of Scotland. We will continue to work with Transport Scotland to provide any support required." -

[Legend]

Very interesting that the blame is being put firmly and rightly at WCRC .  The ORR has certainly done a good job putting the case forward and a factor that I hadn’t considered is that , of course , hotel owners and boat operators will have to comply with H&S legislation themselves and have no sympathy for those that don’t . 
 

So is the £7m the cost to do all 100 of their coaches , while the Jacobite only needs something like 20 including spares ?

 

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that the pig headed refusal to comply with the law should bar WCRC from running anywhere on the network . Its just showing the wrong sort of attitude to running trains on the railway . I hope someone else gets the paths next year . 

Edited April 8 by Legend

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

I think the time will come when the Mk1 coach will no longer be acceptable on the network as their age alone and corrosion to the frames will render them unsafe.

 

Some sort of new or major rebuild will have to come to develop something for the future and it amazes me how on the ball Accurascale were with their Haulmark range of coaches.  If only all those Mk3s had not gone for scrap (or haven't they?).

 

You are rather forgetting that the Mk1 coach is actually a pretty easy thing to keep going indefinitely!

 

This is because of the separate non load bearing body and strong underframe setup - It’s technically possible to build an brand new underframe and transfer an existing body onto it in a way that you simply cannot do with Mk2s or later due to their monocoque construction.

 

The ORRs concerns have their origins in fact that IF the underframe do not stay in line with each other during a derailment and one rises up and impacts the relatively flimsy body then the damage to the passenger 6 will be far more extensive than with a monocoque design.

 

The relevant regulations were also largely written at the time when their were large fleets of 3rd rail EMUs being used and the chances of two Mk1 based trains colliding was considerably higher than is the case today - something the ORR themselves acknowledge in their continued granting of exemptions to such stock

 

 

[Siberian Snooper]

At least the local Scottish tourist businesses have not been bamboozled by WCRCs bluster and appreciate that their businesses have to comply with the legislation appropriate to the businesses that they run and so should West Coast.

 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

11 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

At least the local Scottish tourist businesses have not been bamboozled by WCRCs bluster and appreciate that their businesses have to comply with the legislation appropriate to the businesses that they run and so should West Coast.

 

 

Yes,agreed. But the question still remains…..how to find a way out of this impasse in that feathers and egos are unruffled ,the legal requirements are fulfilled and the Black 5’s are on their way to Mallaig. Bon voyage with that one.

[darrel]

Given WCR attitude to CDL and the twisting of the truth in thier press releases. 

Can we be certain that their trains are maintained to the correct standards? Can they be trusted at all? 

[ruggedpeak]

5 hours ago, arran said:

so how do you know WCR got Mps to stick up for them ? i should imagine that came from local Business going apoplectic as  the whole sorry mess   

Because I read the letter.

[ruggedpeak]

2 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

"They have had years to sort this out and it's a solvable problem and the figures they are giving are a blatant lie."

Kinda cuts to the chase!

[arran]

16 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

Because I read the letter.

Them All ?  it was more than One MP wasn't it , i didn't think they would have but locals have been less than please also 

[stewartingram]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

The ORRs concerns have their origins in fact that IF the underframe do not stay in line with each other during a derailment and one rises up and impacts the relatively flimsy body then the damage to the passenger 6 will be far more extensive than with a monocoque design.

 

 

The nuclear wagon test crash with the class 45 and mk1s, actually seemed too show the strength of the mk1 design?

[stewartingram]

Going a bit off topic (as we do), I've been thinking.....

Do the Royal coaches have CDL? If not, do they have B&Q door bolts and stewards at every door?

Only asking.

[phil-b259]

1 minute ago, stewartingram said:

The nuclear wagon test crash with the class 45 and mk1s, actually seemed too show the strength of the mk1 design?

Yes and no. Although it showed the under frames being very strong the passenger accommodation was pretty mangled…

 

The same is obvious when you look at photos of the Clapham crash in 1987…

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Going a bit off topic (as we do), I've been thinking.....

Do the Royal coaches have CDL? If not, do they have B&Q door bolts and stewards at every door?

Only asking.

I suspect all doors are locked while on the move to prevent undesirables from trying to gain access should the train come to an unscheduled halt for any reason 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

6 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Going a bit off topic (as we do), I've been thinking.....

Do the Royal coaches have CDL? If not, do they have B&Q door bolts and stewards at every door?

Only asking.

 

RSR99 Regulation 5 in full (my emphasis):

Quote

Prohibition of hinged doors

5.—(1) No person shall operate, and no infrastructure controller shall permit the operation of any rolling stock on a railway if the rolling stock has hinged doors for use by passengers for boarding and alighting from the train (other than doors which have a means of centrally locking them in a closed position).

(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to rolling stock which at the relevant time is being exclusively operated other than for the carriage of fare paying passengers.

 

 

[Northmoor]

4 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Yes and no. Although it showed the under frames being very strong the passenger accommodation was pretty mangled…

 

Indeed, after the Old Dalby trial many erroneously deduced that passengers would have been fine because lots of windows were unbroken.  Unfortunately much of the interior was at the leading end of each coach, so most of the occupants would have been crushed or received serious blunt force trauma.