WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[phil-b259]

13 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

They should come to Switzerland, here you can open the entire coach window halfway down and fall out to your heart's content!

 

Swiss rail regulators will ensure that the train operators are regulated in accordance with Swiss law - and nobody else’s!

 

If they fall out of a coach window then that is a matter for the Swiss courts to judge according to Swiss law as set down by its own elected politicians.

 

 

[ruggedpeak]

4 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Last time I looked maters to do with U.K. railways are judged in U.K. courts and to U.K. laws!

 

When will people learn  it doesn’t matter how many pictures they post of what goes on overseas - they mean nothing when it comes to U.K. enforcement of U.K. laws.

 

No UK judge is going to turn round and go “Well the Swiss regulators and Swiss law says it OK so we will go along with that are they?

 

The ORR (and other regulatory bodies) make the decisions they do so that the organisations / people they regulate are in compliance with U.K. laws! NOT just because they have made up a set of standards off their own back.

 

IF you feel that UK regulations are excessive then rather than posting pictures of overseas practices and whinging you need to get busy lobbying MPs to change the relevant U.K. laws by bills in the Houses of Parliament! 
 

That will then alter the framework under which U.K. courts operate and in turn mean that the approach regulators take will be different.

Not sure what are you responding to? I don't think anyone suggested anything to do with what you have posted above. I certainly haven't suggested Swiss law should affect UK law.

 

I merely made the observation, in relation to discussions around the application of railway safety rules and discussion around mollycoddling etc here in that Switzerland we have CDL but you can stick your head and body out of the windows, despite clear hazards, whereas in the UK this is not allowed. Nothing more than a potentially pertinent observation and/or comparison of how different but similar systems operate. I'm not sure showing a photo of an asian train with people on the roof and hanging off the sides is relevant as their laws and society are very different to western Europe.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Swiss rail regulators will ensure that the train operators are regulated in accordance with Swiss law - and nobody else’s!

 

If they fall out of a coach window then that is a matter for the Swiss courts to judge according to Swiss law as set down by its own elected politicians.

 

 

I don't think I've heard of a case where Swiss train operators fall out of their trains - or do you mean it is their regulators who are falling overboard?

[Artless Bodger]

WRT leaning out of windows - I think there have been two at least fatalities in the UK recently from just that. Lady fatally injured leaning out of an HST droplight between Bath and Bristol, and a man (regarded as a railway enthusiast and therefore probably more knowledgable of the risks) leaning out of a 5WES droplight.

 

I travelled a lot on Mk1s, often on my way to / from work. Not something I get misty eyed about enough to want to reprise.

[ardbealach]

To bring the topic back to the WHR I thought I might add in a couple of pics at Glenfinnan Viaduct I took away back on 1st June 1963 .  This trip was then hailed as being the farewell to steam over the West Highland.    It was also the first train to be called 'The Jacobite'  which ran to Mallaig - but then with two NBR J37s and not Class 37s.    They did fail before reaching Mallaig and the train returned to Glasgow [very late] headed by a Class 27.  Apologies for the scratches on the negatives .  [Alisdair]

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Swiss rail regulators will ensure that the train operators are regulated in accordance with Swiss law - and nobody else’s!

 

If they fall out of a coach window then that is a matter for the Swiss courts to judge according to Swiss law as set down by its own elected politicians.

 

 

Not quite as a lot of their railway design and operational requirements exactly reflect UIC requirements - i.e. they are set by an international, rather than a national, body.  

 

Although BR, and its successors have been/are UIC members we have until recent years rigorously avoided paying any attention at all to UIC requirements except in respect of traction units and rolling stock operating internationally.  Somethings - such as advanced notice of Bank Holiday and engineering work train alterations would be a darned sight improved if the UK were to apply UIC requirements.

 

Signed past member of timetable conferences, and certain other meetings relating to train operation, organised in accordance with UIC procedures.

[Reorte]

Come to think of it I'd be more nervous about doors not staying closed on modern Boeing planes than on old BR coaches...

 

I'll get my coat.

[Bucoops]

43 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Come to think of it I'd be more nervous about doors not staying closed on modern Boeing planes than on old BR coaches...

 

I'll get my coat.

 

Shut the door carefully on the way out please. 

[newbryford]

2 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

Shut the door carefully on the way out please. 

And make sure all the bolts are secured........

[Nick C]

On 23/04/2024 at 09:49, Reorte said:

Being uninformed means it's far more likely that someone will misjudge the level of risk (and it could be judging it higher or lower than it really is), but that's not the same issue as deciding at what point do we find living with it preferable to the mitigation, and as I mentioned earlier we've all got a point where we do. And you can't say anyone's point is objectively right or wrong. That's why the only reasonable approach is to aim for the majority's, leaving it to the experts to work out how to apply that to their area. Otherwise you've gone down the path of telling people what they should think and feel.

That doesn't always work though - you can easily end up in "Think of the children" situations (especially when the more excitable media get involved) - just look at the various attempts on a regular basis to regulate the internet - It's easy for a paper or politician to say "let's ban the kind of encryption the bad guys are using", but you first need to listen to the experts when they point out that what's being demanded is impossible...

 

5 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

I think it somewhat unfair to criticise people for not being able to open a door that has a handle system outside the normal types of handles and buttons used on transport systems is 'mollycoddling'.

 

Exactly - the last slam-door stock in regular mainline use was withdrawn 20 years ago - a very large proportion of the population will never have come across them...

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

Not sure what are you responding to? I don't think anyone suggested anything to do with what you have posted above. I certainly haven't suggested Swiss law should affect UK law.

 

The implicit implication that because other countries don't seem that bothered about things which are prohibited in this country and that the ORR is somehow acting unreasonably / getting carried away / overreaching itself etc!

 

What other countries may or may not do has zero relevance to the actions of the ORR - whose actions are framed by British legislation and nobody elses!

 

Now you can of course argue the British legislation is too stringent - BUT if you do then you need to remember what / who put the legislation into law in the first place, members of the houses of Parliament.

 

Hence, as with many things railways if you don't like the ORRs actions then you need to actually start discussing UK Politics and Parliament - both of which shape the entire legal / regulatory environment ion which all railway entities - including WCR MUST be in full compliance with. 

 

 

 

Edited April 24 by phil-b259

[Reorte]

11 minutes ago, Nick C said:

That doesn't always work though - you can easily end up in "Think of the children" situations (especially when the more excitable media get involved) - just look at the various attempts on a regular basis to regulate the internet - It's easy for a paper or politician to say "let's ban the kind of encryption the bad guys are using", but you first need to listen to the experts when they point out that what's being demanded is impossible...

That's why you have to gauge the general level of sentiment and consult the experts about how that can actually be achieved in reality. Public opinion should rarely decide the details, but there's no other acceptable way of assessing what the appropriate general level of risk acceptance should be. The alternative is a small number of people imposing their own opinions on where the lines should be drawn on everyone else (there's no such things as an objectively correct answer to this).

 

The way that's done is by governments coming up with appropriate legislation. If the public doesn't like the legislation, whether they think it goes too far or not far enough, there's the opportunity to vote for someone who'll change it. I'm not talking about consulting the public over every rule.

 

Edited April 24 by Reorte

[ruggedpeak]

So this will be the last Swiss reference but there are a lot of similarities between the Jacobite and the Bernina Express and similar services. Both run premium trains on world famous railway lines in stunning scenery. Both attract tourists from across the globe and both bring valuable business to the areas. The key difference is that whilst the Bernina operates with new, high quality rolling stock and service, the Jacobite operates crappy old coaches whilst making large profits for its owners. Aside from the embarrassing and shameful conduct of WCRC over safety, it would be nice to think that the UK had enough decent, competent people who are able to organise a drinking session in a brewery to collectively create a similarly world class experience with fully refurbished and compliant Mark 1s for the full Harry Potter experience.

 

Just a thought.

[ruggedpeak]

15 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The implicit implication that because other countries don't seem that bothered about things which are prohibited in this country and that the ORR is somehow acting unreasonably / getting carried away / overreaching itself etc!

 

What other countries may or may not do has zero relevance to the actions of the ORR - whose actions are framed by British legislation and nobody elses!

 

Now you can of course argue the British legislation is too stringent - BUT if you do then you need to remember what / who put the legislation into law in the first place, members of the houses of Parliament.

 

Hence, as with many things railways if you don't like the ORRs actions then you need to actually start discussing UK Politics and Parliament - both of which shape the entire legal / regulatory environment ion which all railway entities - including WCR MUST be in full compliance with. 

 

 

 

Total figment of your imagination and very bizarre given at various times on this thread i have been accused of spreading hate against WCRC and being part of an anti-WCRC mob!

 

When you have calmed down read my post again. Nowhere have I criticised ORR or made any comment that remotely implicates that.

 

I am genuinely interested in comparisons and offered it simply on that basis, as the way the Swiss society does things is very interesting (to me at least) compared to the UK. If it's not of interest to you just ignore it

Edited April 24 by ruggedpeak

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

That doesn't always work though - you can easily end up in "Think of the children" situations (especially when the more excitable media get involved) - just look at the various attempts on a regular basis to regulate the internet - It's easy for a paper or politician to say "let's ban the kind of encryption the bad guys are using", but you first need to listen to the experts when they point out that what's being demanded is impossible...

 

 

Exactly - the last slam-door stock in regular mainline use was withdrawn 20 years ago - a very large proportion of the population will never have come across them...

I think you'd have to be at least 30 to have experience of slam door stock in mainline service, at least 40 for that stock not to be CDL fitted, and probably in your 6th decade to have experienced a mainline railway where slam door stock without CDL was the norm.

Edited April 24 by rodent279

[Bucoops]

3 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

I think you'd have to be at least 30 to have experience of slam door stock in mainline service, at least 40 for that stock not to be CDL fitted, and probably in your 6th decade to have experienced a mainline railway where slam door stock without CDL was the norm.

 

I was about to say I remember mainline without CDL, then I stopped to think. Yup, in my 6th Decade... Dang.

[Reorte]

37 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

I was about to say I remember mainline without CDL, then I stopped to think. Yup, in my 6th Decade... Dang.

When did all the Mk3s end up with it? I didn't think they were built like that and it was quite a late add-on, but I'm probably completely wrong.

Edited April 24 by Reorte

[rodent279]

15 minutes ago, Reorte said:

When did all the Mk3s end up with it? I didn't think they were built like that and it was quite a late add-on, but I'm probably completely wrong.

Early 1990's I think. So 30 years ago, and to be used to them as a traveller you'd have to be in your 40's now.

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

I am genuinely interested in comparisons and offered it simply on that basis, as the way the Swiss society does things is very interesting (to me at least) compared to the UK. If it's not of interest to you just ignore it

 

Then why clutter up a thread specifically called "WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR" when you claim your post has nothing to do with that topic?

 

If you want to do generalised comparisons between countries rail systems then why not start a thread about it in the relevant 'Overseas prototype' section of the forum?

 

The fact you haven't done so and stuck it on this thread speaks volumes....

 

 

Edited April 24 by phil-b259

[SR71]

I'm in my 4th decade and remember slam door stock coming through East Croydon although admittedly I was sub 5. All the doors opening on a still moving train made a lasting impression!

[rodent279]

5 minutes ago, SR71 said:

I'm in my 4th decade and remember slam door stock coming through East Croydon although admittedly I was sub 5. All the doors opening on a still moving train made a lasting impression!

You might remember seeing it as a toddler, but to be used to using it in everyday service you'd have to be 5-10 years older.

Edited April 24 by rodent279

[phil-b259]

13 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Early 1990's I think. So 30 years ago, and to be used to them as a traveller you'd have to be in your 40's now.

 

InterCity made a concerted effort to fit all their stock with CDL by 1994 - a fact which was greatly helped by the introduction of fixed formations with DVTs / DBSOs limiting the number of stock which required fitment.

 

Of course with the traditional / unmodified HST fleet having only relatively recently been withdrawn from InterCity routes they were in fact one of the last of the former BR sectors to get rid of slam doors.

 

Network SouthEast didn't have the option to fit CDL to its huge fleet of Mk1 EMUs (particularly as they were well overdue for replacement) so passengers on many London commuter routes had to wait until privatisation started delivering new stock - and in some cases that was quite a drawn out affair with slam door units lasting well into the first decade of this century.

 

What was Regional railways made a good start with the replacement of 1st Gen DMUs by Pacers and Sprinters - but their problem was there simply wasn't enough new units built so you did get some 1st gen units or loco hauled stock limping on into the post privatisation era until TurboStar DMUs started arriving in substantial numbers.

Edited April 24 by phil-b259

[Jeremy Cumberland]

17 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Then why clutter up a thread specifically called "WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR" when you claim your post has nothing to do with that topic?

 

If you want to do generalised comparisons between countries rail systems then why not start a thread about it in the relevant 'Overseas prototype' section of the forum?

 

The fact you haven't done so and stuck it on this thread speaks volumes....

 

 

Have you not been paying attention to the conversation? There was some discussion about what it's like on the Mk2s at the moment, with no heating or ventilation. This led to looking at reviews of the Jacobite on various sites - all very much on topic. This led to 

23 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Several of them moaning about not being able to lean out of the doors for photos too. 

 

To which @ruggedpeak responded 

20 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

They should come to Switzerland, here you can open the entire coach window halfway down and fall out to your heart's content!

 

Rather a good post, I thought (I did like "fall out to your heart's content"), and no further off topic than many other posts in this thread. There then followed some discussion on comparative conditions between Scotland and Switzerland, which @ruggedpeak responded to, again in a pleasant and informative manner with the pictures of a Swiss metre-gauge line.

 

Then you jump in with bold text, underling and exclamation marks saying that U.K. railways are judged in U.K. courts and to U.K. laws, and then having a rant about...well, to be honest I am not quite sure what. It doesn't seem to have any connection with the conversation up to that point.

[ruggedpeak]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

The fact you haven't done so and stuck it on this thread speaks volumes....

I do have a half decent prototype thread in the Swiss Railways section, which includes some comparisons with the UK. Seems to be appreciated by those interested in the contemporary Swiss scene.

 

 

Edited April 24 by ruggedpeak

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

I think you'd have to be at least 30 to have experience of slam door stock in mainline service, at least 40 for that stock not to be CDL fitted, 

I think classes 411, 421 and 423 were all cheerfully serving Kent less than 25 years ago, and plenty of kids went to school on them. I am not aware that any had CDL fitted.