Pacers on preserved lines

[RJS1977]

To me, I think it depends a lot *how* they are used.

 

Some steam railways used to run an "early bird" diesel service (usually for a lower fare) first thing in the morning while the steam loco was still being warmed up - I have no problem with a Pacer being used for that, if advertised as such.

 

I also have no problem with a situation where there are two trains running alternately, one steam and one diesel, as some railways do, again if it is advertised as such.

 

Nor do I have an issue with a Pacer being used to *expand* the timetable, for example if a heritage railway is making tentative steps towards running a genuine regular service in addition to its heritage services (something which I think both ELR and KWVR may have the potential to do).

 

What I would be more concerned about is a heritage railway regularly using a Pacer to replace its steam operations, especially if not advertised. (Accepting that there may be occasions when a late substitution has to be made for operational reasons - although in the current age, that should again ideally be notified on social media to avoid disappointment).

[Northmoor]

14 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

To me, I think it depends a lot *how* they are used.

 

Some steam railways used to run an "early bird" diesel service (usually for a lower fare) first thing in the morning while the steam loco was still being warmed up - I have no problem with a Pacer being used for that, if advertised as such.

 

I also have no problem with a situation where there are two trains running alternately, one steam and one diesel, as some railways do, again if it is advertised as such.

 

Nor do I have an issue with a Pacer being used to *expand* the timetable, for example if a heritage railway is making tentative steps towards running a genuine regular service in addition to its heritage services (something which I think both ELR and KWVR may have the potential to do).

 

What I would be more concerned about is a heritage railway regularly using a Pacer to replace its steam operations, especially if not advertised. (Accepting that there may be occasions when a late substitution has to be made for operational reasons - although in the current age, that should again ideally be notified on social media to avoid disappointment).

I am very glad a few Pacers have been preserved because like them or not, they represent a period of railway history.  The Metrovick CoBos and Clayton Type 1s were both a complete disaster but it is vitally important that one of each survives.  If we didn't preserve the mistakes, we'd eradicate all remnants of Brunel's Broad Gauge. 

 

However, the worst thing for Pacer preservation, was making them available for free.  The original Pacers, the class 141s, were made available to preservation very cheaply and look how many are still in existence now.  Then there were the "given-away" Southern Region DEMUs, every railway that could, took one, with half of them seemingly believing it was the clincher to running a public transport service (actually having a cheap or free train is about 1% of what is essential to do that).  Not so many years later, how many of those free DEMUs are standing out of use?  They aren't like steam engines "out of ticket", they are standing idle because there isn't the need for them.  If you look around preserved lines, the wagons rotting away in a siding, the ones which haven't been restored for the demo freight train, are almost invariably the wagons they were given by someone.  If you haven't paid for something, you don't feel the same obligation to make the most of it.

 

I share the OP's original concern; running a Pacer in low season or early bird service - and at a discount to the normal fare - is unlikely to be a problem, but a family turning up for a heritage train ride and finding the train is one that the parents were forced to commute to work on two years earlier, is not going to be happy to pay more than £5/mile to do so.

[009 micro modeller]

16 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

What I would be more concerned about is a heritage railway regularly using a Pacer to replace its steam operations

Is that specific to Pacers though or does it apply to other DMUs?

[woodenhead]

If Northern’s call to the industry for several hundred units is to be believed, then in a few short years the first class 150 units will be trundling to your local preserved line.

 

Like it or not, these are all heritage units now

[uax6]

There's three 156's in Potters at Ely, I'm sure a quick call to Angel trains could secure them for preservation..... At least one <should> be saved, but I'm not sure how attractive a train they are to ride on in a historical context, as I still regard them as modern units that took the bog carts away....

 

Andy G

[Northmoor]

27 minutes ago, uax6 said:

There's three 156's in Potters at Ely, I'm sure a quick call to Angel trains could secure them for preservation..... At least one <should> be saved, but I'm not sure how attractive a train they are to ride on in a historical context, as I still regard them as modern units that took the bog carts away....

 

Andy G

For a railway that <could> run some sort of public service, a couple of 156s might be ideal.  Not too complex to be unmaintainable, economical, plus for the passengers, some cycle capacity and plenty of view out as well.

[RJS1977]

8 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Is that specific to Pacers though or does it apply to other DMUs?

 

I think less of an issue for first generation DMUs (which have been out of frontline service for some time). However even there some passengers might be disappointed having turned up expecting steam and paid a premium fare for the privelege.

 

I agree with Northmoor - people do not want to pay a premium fare to travel on the train they were using every day two years ago, 

[melmoth]

About 55 years ago, the KWVR was running a commuter (for want of a better word) service using redundant BR single unit railcars. There didn't seem to be too many eyebrows raised then, so I'm not sure why Pacers should be considered any differently now.

[Steven B]

Were first generation DMUs popular on preserved railways whilst the last few were still earning their keep for BR and its successors?

 

Turn the clock forward a decade or two and perhaps folk will be asking why anyone would want to ride on a newly preserved class 195 when they could travel on a Pacer.

 

It'll be interesting to see how well current units fair with preservation - a Pacer can be fixed with a hammer, not sure the same can be said for a class 800! 

 

Steven B.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Steven B

[woodenhead]

21 minutes ago, Steven B said:

a Pacer can be fixed with a hammer

 

 

Source: https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/791437334505234147/

[papagolfjuliet]

23 hours ago, woodenhead said:

 

 

Source: https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/791437334505234147/

 

That one was alright a couple of hours ago but then we had a bit of rain and...

[Wheatley]

I quite like Pacers, they started on the railway shortly after I did and I'm reasonably familiar with all their various permutations, mods and foibles since. It was a running joke in RRNE>>Northern Fleet circles that they never had two of them in exactly the same mod state at any one time. So I have something of a soft spot for them. 

 

I'm also well aware of the financial and staffing pressures heritage railways are under. But the next time I turn up at Ingrow for a ride up the valley and back and a Pacer trundles in, I shan't be on it. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Wheatley

[009 micro modeller]

Having a look through the Weardale Railway’s social media the other day it sounds as though they preferred their Pacer during the summer holiday period that’s just finished due to its greater seating capacity, substituting it where an older DMU had originally been scheduled. I have to say that I don’t know the line well and haven’t yet had an opportunity to visit but it’s an interesting angle on this (especially if the swap to the Pacer didn’t really impact the number of visitors). To be fair, their older DMU is a class 122 (only one carriage where a 142 has two) so the capacity element of this wouldn’t apply everywhere.

 

What I also found interesting, although possibly a bit off-topic, is that, looking at their website, they use colour coding to denote the different timetables, in common with a lot of other heritage railways. But where this would sometimes just denote frequency and type of traction (in a wide sense, i.e. steam/diesel/loco/multiple unit etc.) for Weardale it actually indicates which DMU is supposed to run that day: https://www.weardale-railway.org.uk/timetables?fbclid=IwAR19yTHFS7OYaMtFVScRtaEOISA35GklCyNcJ3TLp-iKaSvx3Y0N1Jydi_c

[Tom Burnham]

We went on the Weardale Railway in 2018 and the single car diesel was absolutely packed.  We got there by train (a Pacer) to Bishop Auckland and only just made the connection.  We got the bus back, as otherwise we'd have had to wait about 5 hours in Stanhope.  The scenery is very nice and it would be good if people were able to see it, so more capacity would be a good thing!

[6990WitherslackHall]

On 30/08/2023 at 13:11, papagolfjuliet said:

 

That one was alright a couple of hours ago but then we had a bit of rain and...

It just disintegrated

[darren chpamn]

Pacer is a cheep alternative for preserved railways they do have lots of benefits 

1 cheap to run many preserved railways  are run low on funds due to covid 

2 to keep first gen and steam on the rails is costly  and take years to overhual as most parts have to be manufactured  to keep running pacer parts are in abundance 

3 dmus dont need to be pre warmed hours before to be on a running roaster

So are nearly a ready to go in a moments notice 

 

When prevsered lines are looking at ways to increase income with very little capital expenditure a pacer is the right way to go  wether we like them or not 

I would rather eide one of them than seee a preseved line close 

Daz

 

[Northmoor]

3 hours ago, darren chpamn said:

Pacer is a cheep alternative for preserved railways they do have lots of benefits 

1 cheap to run many preserved railways  are run low on funds due to covid 

2 to keep first gen and steam on the rails is costly  and take years to overhual as most parts have to be manufactured  to keep running pacer parts are in abundance 

3 dmus dont need to be pre warmed hours before to be on a running roaster

So are nearly a ready to go in a moments notice 

 

When prevsered lines are looking at ways to increase income with very little capital expenditure a pacer is the right way to go  wether we like them or not 

I would rather eide one of them than seee a preseved line close 

Daz

 

With respect Daz, while entitled to your opinion, you have completely misunderstood almost everything about how preserved railways work.  There used to be a mindset in railway preservation that the route to success was to make everything cheap enough; all your staff are volunteers, rolling stock should be cheap or free, it'll be a cheap day out and the visitors will flood in.  People are much more sophisticated than that. 

 

As several have said above, the general public - who, not enthusiasts, make up the vast majority of the paying customers - do not want to pay a premium fare to travel on something they could have commuted in just a couple of years ago.  If you provide this as your "product", the visitors will go elsewhere for the day's entertainment; grandparents wanting to take the grandchildren for a train ride might go instead to the local railway station and take them twenty miles on a modern service train to a town with a nice cafe, at a quarter of the cost.  The importance of saving costs you've rightly identified, isn't achieved by running the cheapest possible train if that drives much of your business away. 

 

Some years ago a railway I was slightly involved with, was unable to complete overhauls of its own steam loco or hire one for two seasons and ran its trains with a diesel shunter.  Passenger numbers fell by about 60%.  Nowadays. railways controlling their costs aren't generally doing that by abandoning steam, most (like the SVR for instance) are running a similar timetable, some diesels but mostly smaller steam locomotives which use half the coal.  To the general public it makes not a jot of difference; it's still a steam loco on the front but it's greatly reducing the cost to the railway.

 

Also worth noting that perhaps counter-intuitively, the public aren't being attracted to cheaper operations, what might be called the ordinary operating days.  The growth has been in "events"; 40s-themed weekends, food and drink events and galas; people are prepared to pay more for bigger experiences, which don't necessarily cost proportionally more for the railway to put on.  Coming back to my original point, running Pacers because they are cheap is a flawed business model; people want a product up to a standard, not down to a price.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 11/09/2023 at 15:16, Tom Burnham said:

We got there by train (a Pacer) to Bishop Auckland and only just made the connection.  We got the bus back, as otherwise we'd have had to wait about 5 hours in Stanhope. 

 

Pacer or a bus.  What's the difference? 

 

I'm not saying they shouldn't be preserved or used on diesel galas.  And it does make sense to have something like a 1950s DMU or a Pacer available as emergency cover in case the punters need to be brought back from the other end of the line when the planned steam engine fails in service and you don't have another loco  already in steam.  However if I wanted to ride on a clapped-out bus, I'd go to a bus museum not a preserved railway.  The problem is that the railway is failing to provide the service the customers have been led to expect.

 

On 27/08/2023 at 22:41, melmoth said:

About 55 years ago, the KWVR was running a commuter (for want of a better word) service using redundant BR single unit railcars. There didn't seem to be too many eyebrows raised then, so I'm not sure why Pacers should be considered any differently now.

 

If I remember correctly they priced it differently from their normal steam service, with special fares available only to residents of the local area and I thought it lasted a few years.  I understood it to be essentially an attempt to reinstate pre-Beeching traffic, the idea being that they could generate additional income by running a very marginal service in otherwise empty capacity hours so that it didn't conflict with tourist traffic patterns.  I assume that demand failed to cover even the limited cost of running it. 

 

Attempts to reverse history seem doomed to fail.  Those who had used the Oxenhope branch of BR would long since have changed their lifestyle no longer to rely on what had ceased to exist, and it is unlikely that they would find it useful to go back to it after the passage of a few years.  When the West Somerset line had been proposed for closure, the unions had objected as their members were to be made reundant.  I recall that when somebody later wanted to reopen the line with volunteer crews, the NUR protested again because they were worried about the threat from competition with the bus service, as some of their members had found re-employment by becoming bus drivers!

 

 

 

[Tom Burnham]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Pacer or a bus.  What's the difference? 

...

 However if I wanted to ride on a clapped-out bus, I'd go to a bus museum not a preserved railway.  The problem is that the railway is failing to provide the service the customers have been led to expect....

 

 

 

For the record, it was a normal service bus (albeit by a local operator) rather than a specific railway one.  The issue was that the timetable was geared to punters arriving at Stanhope by car and going for a ride, rather than arriving by train on the National Rail connection.  Also why the single car diesel unit was already full when it arrived at Bp Auckland.  To be fair, not the only heritage railway where that happens, i.e. it's not easy to use a main line rail connection even where there is one in theory. Possibly a subject for another topic.

Returning to Pacers, I have heard that one heritage line that had one found that although it didn't cost much to acquire, a lot of expensive work would be needed to get it working reliably.  YMMV, of course.

[adb968008]

On 27/08/2023 at 22:08, RJS1977 said:

I agree with Northmoor - people do not want to pay a premium fare to travel on the train they were using every day two years ago, 

Several times I turned up at the ELR to ride an ex-BR diesel in the 1990’s on a rake of NSE mk2’s… which if you want to Bolton or Victoria, or further away you could find on a service train…  ive ridden 25,31,33,37,50,56, 101, 110, 504 at Bury in such state… still in as delivered livery, or weathered versions thereof.

 

no one was complaining, indeed some were sold out/ standing only, it was extremely popular.

At Keighley in 1968 it must have been very confusing figuring who owned what…

 

 

This was a confusing day for passengers, and no it was not a gala, nor was it midweek or winter.

 

modern units will find their place in preservation, because once theyve gone they aren't coming back

.

its starts with enthusiastic preservation and becomes emotional over time.

 

I rode a 6 car 150/2 from the ELR too in 1987, so its already happened on a preserved railway, and the railtour to the SVR was a sell out. Personally I think a GWR Castle HST set would be very nice at one or two preserved lines

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by adb968008

[EmporiaSub]

We have an earlier ‘Pacer’ on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway, it’s otherwise known as the Ryde Tram Car.

Generally goes out advertised a few times during the season, and also does some unadvertised workings on days when the railway can be busier, but cannot justify two train working. Holds about 20 passengers, and gives a very panoramic view of the line. Probably because of the age, it does draw quite a lot of interest, and it neatly fits in between the steam train workings.

[Ben B]

 

I don't mind the Pacers (and yes, I used them regularly, living in Carlisle, then Bingley, then Keighley). Taking the KWVR's unit, as it's my local line, of which I'm a member;

 

It's significant and suitable for KWVR use, having run on the adjacent mainline, and had the branch survived into BR ownership, it could logically have operated on the line. 

It's been beautifully restored into a period specific scheme relevant to the area, and a vol on Sunday mentioned there was an intention to restore the interior of at least one vehicle to period-specific condition.

 

It's generally used for midweek diesel railcar services (and plenty of locals do use the services on reduced fares for locals, myself included until my work shift pattern changed). Where it runs on 'normal days' it tends to run the early turns and/or in addition to steam services. Given the alternative cost of a class 20/37 on 4 mk.1's, I can't blame the KWVR for using it to increase capacity. It does come in handy if you're using the line to visit other attractions, avoiding long waits at stations for the steam-hauled service going back and forth.

 

The Pacer is holding the fort whilst the stalwart 101 DMU is being repaired and restored, and likewise for the W&M railbus as a single-unit is too short on capacity for the summer.

 

Finally, the Pacer (and a second example, mainly acquired for spares) were also reportedly added to the fleet with an eye on filming, to give a more modern-looking train (indeed, both Pacers have been used for filming contracts). There was also a point recently where a genuine peak-hours commuter service was planned, in co-operation with the council with Levelling-Up funding to subsidise, as part of a general boost in public transport locally. The Pacer would have been ideal for these early morning/late afternoon shuttle services, but the bid for funding failed (the Council bizzarrely tacked on an otherwise-unrelated 'robotics college' for Keighley to the public transport funding bid, which seems to have sunk it). In any case, I think the KWVR is making good use of a historically-significant asset they have, so like I said at the start, I really don't mind it.

[Johann Marsbar]

2 hours ago, EmporiaSub said:

We have an earlier ‘Pacer’ on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway, it’s otherwise known as the Ryde Tram Car.

Generally goes out advertised a few times during the season, and also does some unadvertised workings on days when the railway can be busier, but cannot justify two train working. Holds about 20 passengers, and gives a very panoramic view of the line. Probably because of the age, it does draw quite a lot of interest, and it neatly fits in between the steam train workings.

 

I did have a ride on that along the pier back in the 1960's, and as I can't remember any trains running as well, it must have been when the main system was shut for electrification.

We went to the IoW for a day trip from Southampton on Red Funnel Ferries and I remember we passed the original Queen Elizabeth on the way down the Solent.

I've still got the Ryde Pier Tram tickets somewhere!

[009 micro modeller]

On 17/09/2023 at 13:08, Michael Hodgson said:

I recall that when somebody later wanted to reopen the line with volunteer crews, the NUR protested again because they were worried about the threat from competition with the bus service

Although there is an argument that it would be quite reasonable to protest about this if somebody is effectively doing the job you were made redundant from, as a volunteer (and the two jobs are more directly comparable on a line running a ‘commuter’ service than they would be on most heritage railways).

 

On 17/09/2023 at 07:18, darren chpamn said:

Pacer is a cheep alternative for preserved railways they do have lots of benefits…

 

On 17/09/2023 at 12:01, Northmoor said:

With respect Daz, while entitled to your opinion, you have completely misunderstood almost everything about how preserved railways work.  There used to be a mindset in railway preservation that the route to success was to make everything cheap enough; all your staff are volunteers, rolling stock should be cheap or free, it'll be a cheap day out and the visitors will flood in.  People are much more sophisticated than that. 

Agree with this - it seems like an attempt to apply the rationale for cost-cutting on the main line to heritage railways. If it was just a public transport service and you wanted to have minimal staffing and costs, and all that customers really wanted was to get to their destination on time, then it might work, but a heritage railway visit is a discretionary spend and most visitors probably want a bit more out of the experience. I tend to think that a better way is to run interesting events to encourage visitors, or to lean into their museum/tourist aspects (which arguably the K&WVR Pacer does - appropriate to the area, nicely restored etc.).

[cessna152towser]

The 141s had their uses on the Weardale Railway.  I can recall a standing room only trip on a New Year's Day because a large group of hikers chose to ride one way between Wolsingham and Stanhope and then walk back.     Conversely another trip from Stanhope to Bishop Auckland on an August "commuter rail" service I was one of only three passengers so I can understand why this service no longer runs.

I do some volunteering at Waverley Route Heritage Association where I am an associate member.   The guys at Whitrope started out with RB004 which didn't really cut the mustard either with the public or enthusiasts as it was basically just a bus.   As there was the spectre of the owner possibly removing RB004, they took the opportunity to acquire Pacers 142 019 and 142 020 when these became available.    With one more open day remaining this season, running 142 019, they are on course for their best ever season.   Partly because the Pacer is seen as a real train by families from the surrounding area who will bring their children for the novelty of a train ride.  Also, from an enthusiast point of view, while a Pacer might not have been their choice of train, enthusiasts have visited from all over the British Isles and a few from mainland Europe, simply for the novelty of rail travel over a short section of the Waverley Route.

Steam is not an option at Whitrope as the trackbed is leased from the Forestry Commission and it is a condition of the lease that steam is not run due to the potential fire risk.