Britannia mainline failure

[SR71]

Surprised not to find this already posted on here after searching. Britannia reportedly suffered a broken crosshead in the week.

 

 

Since seeing the video I've been waiting for are article writing it up but googling again this morning found nothing.

 

Warning the sounds at the end aren't for those of a mechanically squeamish disposition!

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by SR71

[6990WitherslackHall]

That did not sound good

[APOLLO]

Read these.

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=287

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Settle1960.pdf

 

Brit15

 

 

[MossdaleNGauge]

Not my photo, but is has already appeared elsewhere.

[Phil Bullock]

39 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Read these.

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=287

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Settle1960.pdf

 

Brit15

 

 

Yes those incidents came to mind when I first heard of this. Thankfully although the cross head looks like it has fractured in that photo all the mechanical components appear to have stayed in place so no flailing rods to cause issues. 
 

A shame though …. She was running very nicely! Unfortunately no such thing as a replacement spare part or cheap repair….

[Enterprisingwestern]

35 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

Yes those incidents came to mind when I first heard of this. Thankfully although the cross head looks like it has fractured in that photo all the mechanical components appear to have stayed in place so no flailing rods to cause issues. 
 

A shame though …. She was running very nicely! Unfortunately no such thing as a replacement spare part or cheap repair….

 

Couple of hours on a 3d printer Phil?

 

Mike.

[6990WitherslackHall]

I found two videos on YouTube of the train at Guildford. The first one has photos as well as a video of the Class 47 on the rear hauling the train back but unfortunately, has music over it.

 

70013 failed at Guildford

 

The second one is of the same video of the diesel hauling the train back to Guildford. This time with no music.

 

Class 47 hauling the train back to Guildford

[Phil Bullock]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Couple of hours on a 3d printer Phil?

 

Mike.

If only!!!

[Mallard60022]

4 hours ago, SR71 said:

Surprised not to find this already posted on here after searching. Britannia reportedly suffered a broken crosshead in the week.

 

 

Since seeing the video I've been waiting for are article writing it up but googling again this morning found nothing.

 

Warning the sounds at the end aren't for those of a mechanically squeamish disposition!

 

Off, it sounded so great and was going beautifully full chat and that just bang, rattle rattle. Driver must have shut it immediately. How sad.

[Titan]

3 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

She was running very nicely! Unfortunately no such thing as a replacement spare part or cheap repair….

 

People in the preservation world seem to be fairly resourceful if they need to be. It is a BR standard, so that part is going to be common with other locos besides Britanias. In other words there are going to be several of these parts around, some currently attached to a working locomotive, some not.  All it takes is a little co-operation - Phone up owner of loco X currently under overhaul/out of service "Can we borrow a crosshead whilst we get a replacement cast, we will get another done whilst we are at it so you can have a spare too if you like"  It is quite possible that the piston/cylinder ends could be damaged as they will have likely hit each other hard due to not being restrained by the connecting rod, but the same could apply to those parts too.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Titan

[Bucoops]

11 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

People in the preservation world seem to be fairly resourceful if they need to be. It is a BR standard, so that part is going to be common with other locos besides Britanias. In other words there are going to be several of these parts around, some currently attached to a working locomotive, some not.  All it takes is a little co-operation - Phone up owner of loco X currently under overhaul/out of service "Can we borrow a crosshead whilst we get a replacement cast, we will get another done whilst we are at it so you can have a spare too if you like"  It is quite possible that the piston/cylinder ends could be damaged as they will have likely hit each other hard due to not being restrained by the connecting rod, but the same could apply to those parts too.

 

Agreed - it's well known that LNER Pacific owners regularly loan parts and patterns. Presumably the same with other related locos.

 

Happens in other historic circles too - when the Canadian Warplane Heritage's Lancaster needed an engine replacement whilst over here, the BBMF loaned one of theirs to get them home. 

[Phil Bullock]

3 hours ago, Titan said:

 

People in the preservation world seem to be fairly resourceful if they need to be. It is a BR standard, so that part is going to be common with other locos besides Britanias. In other words there are going to be several of these parts around, some currently attached to a working locomotive, some not.  All it takes is a little co-operation - Phone up owner of loco X currently under overhaul/out of service "Can we borrow a crosshead whilst we get a replacement cast, we will get another done whilst we are at it so you can have a spare too if you like"  It is quite possible that the piston/cylinder ends could be damaged as they will have likely hit each other hard due to not being restrained by the connecting rod, but the same could apply to those parts too.

Yes did hope they might be standard parts but didn’t want to assume. In these financially challenging times co-operation between owning groups is more important than ever … a loco owning group cannot afford for their pride and joy to be out of traffic whilst the boiler clock is ticking….

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Off, it sounded so great and was going beautifully full chat and that just bang, rattle rattle. Driver must have shut it immediately. How sad.

Oh dear. 

 

I do hope he did shut off immediately.  There's bound to be an enquiry, as it must be classed as a "near miss" with potentially catastrophic consequences.

[Titan]

It certainly sounded like he did, the noise ceased fairly quickly. As soon as steam was shut off the piston would get shoved to top dead center and stay there, but until then the valves would still be admitting steam throwing the piston back and forth hitting the cylinder cap in one direction and the piston rod hitting the remains of the crosshead in the other.

[6990WitherslackHall]

These are the timings and the route of 70000 Britannia on Real Time Trains. It shows that the train departed late from Chertsey by 15 minutes and continued to lose time until Woking Junction, where it started to gain time before the failure.

 

It eventually arrived at London Victoria at 02:39am, 278 minutes late.

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by 6990WitherslackHall

[Boris]

The more I see of stuff like this (and the failure of the Deltic on the 19th August) the more I wonder if this stuff has any place on the mainline in the 21st century?  My personal opinion is that steam and heritage diesel charters are a massive pain in the behind to deal with on the modern network and I'd prefer to see them on a preserved railway rather than complicating the life of the average rail user.

 

I know this opinion is going to be about as popular as a fart in a spacesuit but this is a discussion forum after all.

[woodenhead]

@Boris One could argue a Britannia is only 5 years older than a 37 and they still trundle about on the mainline with their original engines, they are certainly the same age as a Deltic.

 

Even ultra modern trains powering the fastest trains on the ECML and GWML are prone to cracking, just lucky they found them before anything serious occurred.

 

I guess the answer is more metal testing for hairline cracks rather than an outright back, perhaps even more stringent requirements as to fitness to run to enforce those checks.

 

Personally, I'd be more worried about the state of some of the Mk1 charter stock than the locos at the front.

[25901]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

The more I see of stuff like this (and the failure of the Deltic on the 19th August) the more I wonder if this stuff has any place on the mainline in the 21st century?  My personal opinion is that steam and heritage diesel charters are a massive pain in the behind

Has D9009 had a fault /failure free run. total failure, engine shut down and massive electrical blow up are ones I can think of over the last few years

[nathan70000]

11 hours ago, Boris said:

The more I see of stuff like this (and the failure of the Deltic on the 19th August) the more I wonder if this stuff has any place on the mainline in the 21st century?  My personal opinion is that steam and heritage diesel charters are a massive pain in the behind to deal with on the modern network and I'd prefer to see them on a preserved railway rather than complicating the life of the average rail user.

 

I know this opinion is going to be about as popular as a fart in a spacesuit but this is a discussion forum after all.

IIRC the Deltic was able to complete the trip. Failures like this are very rare and the majority of steam-hauled railtours pass without incident.

 

The average rail user is far more likely to be inconvenienced by strikes etc. than a heritage rail tour.

[Mallard60022]

11 hours ago, Boris said:

The more I see of stuff like this (and the failure of the Deltic on the 19th August) the more I wonder if this stuff has any place on the mainline in the 21st century?  My personal opinion is that steam and heritage diesel charters are a massive pain in the behind to deal with on the modern network and I'd prefer to see them on a preserved railway rather than complicating the life of the average rail user.

 

I know this opinion is going to be about as popular as a fart in a spacesuit but this is a discussion forum after all.

Yup, you knew what your opinion would be seen as. Yes you are correct, except you would be the only person to smell your fart in your space suit! Perhaps that's for the best eh?

As far as we are aware this particular failure inconvenienced  the users of the train and that was it.

Most specials are not on the main lines these days anyway. I can see that those may become fewer and I can understand why.

It's about planning and risk assessment.

Also, look abroad at how they often use their heritage Trains as brilliant pieces of both amusement and leisure Travel on Main Lines and closer to home, the regular use of Heritage Machines as attractions to travel such as Steam on the Taunton to Paignton legs of Tours this summer.

Phil

 

[Mallard60022]

11 minutes ago, nathan70000 said:

IIRC the Deltic was able to complete the trip. Failures like this are very rare and the majority of steam-hauled railtours pass without incident.

 

The average rail user is far more likely to be inconvenienced by strikes etc. than a heritage rail tour.

Or, sadly, the failure of equipment, weather conditions or Trespass, all of which are far more frequent than Industrial action which is announced in advance anyway!

P

[Reorte]

12 hours ago, Boris said:

The more I see of stuff like this (and the failure of the Deltic on the 19th August) the more I wonder if this stuff has any place on the mainline in the 21st century?  My personal opinion is that steam and heritage diesel charters are a massive pain in the behind to deal with on the modern network and I'd prefer to see them on a preserved railway rather than complicating the life of the average rail user.

 

I know this opinion is going to be about as popular as a fart in a spacesuit but this is a discussion forum after all.

I couldn't disagree with you more strongly; indeed, most of the time anyone says something along the lines of "... not fit or appropriate in the 21st century" my reaction is along the lines of "... and that's why I've got such a negative opinion of the 21st century and why I increasingly loathe living in it."

 

But it's absolutely fair and right to raise the question and have the discussion.

[sir douglas]

And wasnt this the whole point of Tornado, a modern loco for modern times and let the old ones have their retirement

[woodenhead]

7 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

And wasnt this the whole point of Tornado, a modern loco for modern times and let the old ones have their retirement

When there are enough of them, Tornado is currently out for overhaul, the P2 isn't complete and the V4 project has yet to formally launch.

 

But even then there will still be space for nostalgia and older locos - it's all about maintenance - it's not like Flying Scotsman is a 100 year old locomotive, it's Triggers broom and Britannia has spent longer in a preserved state that working hard on the railway.

 

The route to mainline running is going to get harder as ECTMS expands so there will be less of a fleet to maintain so that should make it easier to set a very high standard for a special few locos.

 

[G-BOAF]

On 27/08/2023 at 10:22, MossdaleNGauge said:

Not my photo, but is has already appeared elsewhere.

I'm not a metallurgist, nor is this a particularly clear photo, but the break appears to be rather granular.  Does this give any clues as to the cause of the failure? Fatigue crack that ran, flaws in original casting, flaws in metal.

 

Another observation, Britannia was never stripped in a scrapyard, so I would guess that most of the motion is 1951-1965 era. This is in contrast ex-scrapyard restorations where different degrees of motion are made new (although going by many pictures from Barry, Crossheads and slide bars are some of the last bits to stay on the locos)