Running on Filthy track

[DCB]

After many months I finally crawled back into the loft to find the abandoned  layout was not working at all. It's  about 15ft X 4, an oval with storage  4 loops over 10 feet long, the storage level  for an unfinished layout
The usual power unit, a Hornby Dublo A3 was missing so I hooked up a Triang  "Westmnster" as power supply to my diode based controller.  However...   The  Usual test loco  Lima 45XX wouldn't move initially, even after pushing it it still wouldn't keep running.   No better luck with Hornby Pannier or Romford wheeled Wrenn  2-6-4T.    I had a battery powered Lima 37 so pushed the 45XX with that with little success.  Now the track is really really dirty, especially the Nickle silver, it's a mix of N/S and Steel and the steel is a lot cleaner except where its rusted.  Anyway 37 trundled round with 9 Mk1s for a bit having failed to pull the track cleaning wagon. The 45XX still wouldn't run consistently, Wrenn 8F barely moved.  My Wrenn 08 barely moved, Its got 60 to1 gears, so tried my old Hornby Dublo 08.  Its barely used, lacking couplings. and off it went like a rocket, no problems at all.    I would assume its the weight, heavy axle loading, on the pick up axles but the 8F and low geared 08 are the same.  Only real difference is the H/D 08 has unworn wheels,  The others are well worn, the low geared 08 and the 45XX down to the brass.  

[kevinlms]

Perhaps cleaning the track of a long unused layout, ought to have been the easiest and most effective thing to do BEFORE attempting to run anything?

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

the track is really really dirty,

Sorry, but there's your "well, duuuhh!!" moment right there. 🙄 🤦‍♂️

[DCB]

1 hour ago, F-UnitMad said:

Sorry, but there's your "well, duuuhh!!" moment right there. 🙄 🤦‍♂️

You are missing the point.   A lot of people write about track cleaning, extra  pickups etc, very few do any actual tests.  

 

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

Perhaps cleaning the track of a long unused layout, ought to have been the easiest and most effective thing to do BEFORE attempting to run anything?

Yes ideal if you have a portable shunting plank, but this is around 15 X 5,  not too sure how wide and 2  X  25 wagon trains normally occupy 2 loops and the passenger, 9 to 12 coach the third leaving a clear road,  the loops are behind the junction board under the eaves.  Track cleaning by hand is not an option,  Normally the 45XX does a whirl then the Triang / Farish (with H/D wheels) 94XX pulls a Wrenn Fruit van chassis with a Peco track cleaning rubber under it round half a dozen times and  testing can begin.     I'm banned from the loft when I'm on my own since I fell out and had to be taken to hospital so further testing as to wait, but I have an identical 45XX  almost as new so I'll do a back to back test with the old one and get more useless data.  And I have a spare Relco  That will be interesting.

[cctransuk]

31 minutes ago, DCB said:

You are missing the point.   A lot of people write about track cleaning, extra  pickups etc, very few do any actual tests.  

 

Yes ideal if you have a portable shunting plank, but this is around 15 X 5,  not too sure how wide and 2  X  25 wagon trains normally occupy 2 loops and the passenger, 9 to 12 coach the third leaving a clear road,  the loops are behind the junction board under the eaves.  Track cleaning by hand is not an option,  Normally the 45XX does a whirl then the Triang / Farish (with H/D wheels) 94XX pulls a Wrenn Fruit van chassis with a Peco track cleaning rubber under it round half a dozen times and  testing can begin.     I'm banned from the loft when I'm on my own since I fell out and had to be taken to hospital so further testing as to wait, but I have an identical 45XX  almost as new so I'll do a back to back test with the old one and get more useless data.  And I have a spare Relco  That will be interesting.

 

You will not get trains running satisfactorily until you, or someone else, hand cleans the track - end of!

 

Lofts are dirty places in their normal state;  long-term neglect cannot be overcome by any means other than elbow-grease.

 

Sorry,

CJI.

[RFS]

If the track is "really, really dirty" it's a sure bet the loco wheels are too. Both need thorough cleaning. 

[Oldddudders]

My continuous loop is 96' long, in an unheated 16' x 20' stone shed. The track is capable of becoming very dirty in less than 4 weeks of non-use. Cleaning is essential in order to enjoy the layout at all. Hoping it will just be ok often results in previously-reliable locos dirtying their wheels and giving up. 

 

That's life. 

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, RFS said:

If the track is "really, really dirty" it's a sure bet the loco wheels are too. Both need thorough cleaning. 

I think we're a little closer to understanding why DCB's rail joiners glow red!

 

I used to hate going round to a group of modellers and discovering on arrival, that the track had apparently not been cleaned, since I did so 12 months prior. So I personally cleaned their track, before I got my models out to run on their track.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

3 hours ago, RFS said:

If the track is "really, really dirty" it's a sure bet the loco wheels are too. Both need thorough cleaning. 

As well as the carriages and wagons. Cleaning is them not a very fun job but necessary for reliable running; I have just spent a couple of hours this weekend cleaning all of my carriage wheels for an upcoming show!

 

 

4 hours ago, DCB said:

 ...the loops are behind the junction board under the eaves.  Track cleaning by hand is not an option, 

Sounds like you may need to redesign the layout. If you cannot reach the track, then how can you do other things such as retrieve derailments etc.? I have tried any number of different approaches to keeping track clean, but really manual cleaning is the only option (rail cleaning wagons work to keep the track clean during operational sessions, but don't help much if the layout has not been used for a while.

[F-UnitMad]

5 hours ago, DCB said:

You are missing the point.   A lot of people write about track cleaning, extra  pickups etc, very few do any actual tests.  

No, you are the one missing the point. A lot is written about track cleaning because it's an essential task - DC & DCC track-powered model trains do not fair well on dirty track - no 'tests' are neccessary!!! 

 

I can see this Thread getting locked quite soon.... 🙄

[F-UnitMad]

5 hours ago, DCB said:

I'll do a back to back test with the old one and get more useless data. 

You said it.... 🤣🤣🤣

[C126]

For what it is worth, I can only add my weight to the need to clean, laboriously, by hand your layout before running anything.  Returned from Stafford last weekend inspired to do some 'mindful shunting' and forget the burden of finishing scenery.  The layout is in the garage, comprising seven 4' sidings and not used for about a year.

 

However, it took two hours using a track-rubber and Hoover, then rags with meths and lighter fluid until the rags wiped 'clean'.  Far from flawless running still, I had another go this weekend, trying to do the 'inside top' of the rails as well.  Do put the time and effort in; it will be worth it.  I write in sympathy.

 

 

[AY Mod]

7 hours ago, DCB said:

I'll do a back to back test

 

Before you do, Google 'the definition of insanity'.

 

You don't have to be Einstein.

[The Johnster]

I'd say the collective's response to an attempt to run locos on a dirty layout was pretty much what I'd expect it to be; the basic advice here has to be 'don't, they'll get dirty, and clean up your act, matey'.  But a layout which has areas that are difficult or impossible to reach for manual cleaning and derailment retreival has more deep-rooted problems IMHO.  It is what it is and the issues cannot be addressed by anything short of a rebuild, and you may be reluctant to do that for sentimental or other reasons.  You seem to have built this layout in an unrebuilt loft, a naturally dirty environment, and intended to keep the track clean with proprietary cleaning cars and Relco.  Relco's claims have perhaps seduced you into incorporating an inaccessible area.

 

Doesn't work, but you know that now.  Dapol/Gaugemaster track cleaners are fine for light cleaning of reasonably-clean-to-start-with railheads, and Relco will deal with minor carbon deposit build-ups, but for heavy duty cleaning (and heavy duty cleaning will certainly be necessary on any layout that is not used frequently, especially if it is located anywhere outside the heated and ventilated area of your home) they are hopelessly inadequate, and the best they will do is to spread an even layer of crud everywhere so that the layout doesn't work anywhere as opposed to in specific spots.  Heavy duty cleaning cannot be done by any mechanical or electronic method, as it requires pressure bearing down on the railheads, i.e. elbow grease.  From your mk1 elbow.

 

There is nothing more frustrating than a layout that doesn't run properly.  Don't blame your locos, the cause of your problem is at railhead level.  My advice FWIW would be:-

 

.Cleaning of railheads by hand.  There are several methods that people swear by or at, but for your situation I would use Peco abrasive track rubbers to begin with, then polish the railhead surfaces with something else once you've got a shine back on the railheads.  Peco track rubbers will shift anything, but will abrade the surface of your railhead into micro-grooves with will harbour more crud eventually, so these need to be polished out.  It's hard and onerous work, but once done, you only have to do the polishing part to keep the surface up to scratch, or not scratch, you know what I mean...

 

.Redesign the inaccessible area.  This will be major work, and may even lead to a layout rebuild, but is an absolute essential; you must be able to get at all your track for cleaning.  In a loft, creepycrawlies,spiders and mice will foul the area because it is inaccessible; their definition of 'inaccessible' is 'safe haven'.

 

.Carbon buildup will, inevitably, occur where there is arcing; point blades, places where loco wheels lift even nanoscopically off imperfectly laid rails or at the summits of gradients, entering and leaving setrack radius curves (at the flanges) and where pickup is broken and resumed over point frogs.  Relcos will reduce it, but not eliminate it.  At point blades, it will eventuall prevent the blade from closing properly against the stock rail and cause facing point derailments.  It needs to be ruthless filed off with a degree of thuggery, and the surface restored to shinyness. 

 

.By this time, your locos and stock will need a good seeing to as well.  Dirty wheels will spread crud everywhere, and crud is attracted to itself because it doesn't like polished surfaces.  Clean loco wheels aid performance by improving electrical pickup from clean rails and transferring current through clean surfaces to clean pickups, and the reward is smooth and controllable slow running with smooth stops and starts.  Eliminate any traction tyres and replace the wheels with groovless ones; traction tyres are IMHO satan's expectorant, spreading crud and interfering with pickup performance.

 

.On rolling stock, eliminate any plastic wheelsets on older stock.  These are crudspreaders, are next to impossible to keep clean, and impossible to adjust for back-to-back.  Replace them with metal, which can be taken out and cleaned easily.  I have had some success with ultrasonic cleaning with wheelsets.  Eliminate any Lima wheelsets on locos, for some reason the alloy these are made of attracts crud and they will need constant cleaning, like several times a session.  In any case the flange profile is pretty dire!

 

My running is pretty good, and serious cleaning sessions are infrequent.  I put this down to several factors:-

 

.Frequent use of the layout.  I operate it probably five out of seven days in a week, sometimes for several hours at a time.  Problems are dealt with on the spot, and rectified immediately and I know where they are likely to occur.  I have a cork cleaning block which is wiped over anwhere that less than perfect slow running shows up, sometimes wetted with WD40 electrical switch cleaner from a rattlecan (electrical switch cleaner, NOT the stuff you spray on your car engine on cold damp mornings, a moisture repellant that will eat your layout!).  There is a lot of real coal with the resultant dust in my colliery, which needs frequent attenion of this sort.

 

.Siting of the layout.  Having had a teenage loft layout torn to bits by temperature extremes, I vowed to never again have a model railway anywhere other than permanently erected somewhere within the heated and ventilated 'living' area of my domicile.  I appreciate that this may not be possible for you, and can do little but sympathise.

 

.Care in baseboard construction and track laying.  My baseboards look a bit crude, skip-raided Ikea 'Lack' shelving laid on top of cabinets because I live in a rented property and cannot attach things to the landlord's walls, but looks can be deceptive; they are rigid, braced, and level, and they stay where they were put!  Track is laid directly to the boards, which are rigorously cleaned prior to laying, so that the track lays flat to them.  I use rail joiners to ensure smooth joints between sections.  Pin the track down lightly until you are satisfied with it's final position, then pva-glue it and remove the pins.  Leave expansion gaps at the joins, allowing the fishplates to 'fish'; ideally, lay track on what you think will be the hottest day of the year and join sections closely, but not completely tightly to each other.  My loft layout taught me that track needs to be firmly supported in the vertical plane, but able to move a little in the horizontal plane.  Cork strip formation bed is ok, but avoid foam underlay; see my comments about traction tyres.  Embrace the diddly-dum noises!

 

.Regular loco cleaning.  You will soon identify which locos need this and which can be left until next week.  Get rid of the horrible coloured grease they came with in the box, deep-clean (wheels out) and re-lube as sparingly as you can with a non-mineral plastic-friendly oil (your local model shop, even one that doesn't do much railway stuff, will be able to supply this).  I use a hypo syringe to get to the important little places, but a droplet on a pin will do.  If you do use a hypo, keep it with your modelling stuff and away from any in your household used for medical or any other purpose, for obvious reasons!  Once this intial deep clean is done, some locos will need wheel treads, backs, and pickup wipers looking at on a regular basis and some will plod on regardless with an occasional squirt of WD40 switch cleaner, then stop altogether about once a year and need a proper cleaning session. 

 

.Check your stock wheels for crud build-up every so often.

 

In other words, start clean and keep it clean.  The less frequently you use the layout, and the less layout-friendly it's location/storage area, and the less flat and rigid a datum the baseboards provide, and the less care taken in tracklaying. the harder this will be.  It is possible that your layout is too far gone and you need to start again.  Apologies if some of the above is the thing with granny and the eggs!

[Kylestrome]

9 hours ago, DCB said:

I'm banned from the loft when I'm on my own since I fell out and had to be taken to hospital .....

 

I would suggest you need to find another place to run your trains that doesn't result in filthy track and that you will not be able to fall out of.

[stewartingram]

Not mentioned so far is the use of steel track., which rusts quickly in a bad environment. Once rusted throw it away.

[sncf231e]

I never clean my track (when I am running clockwork trains😉)

Regards

Fred

[Free At Last]

I have not cleaned my track for several years since rubbing a stick of graphite on it.
I only re-touch it up with graphite where I have been doing any work on it.
I never suffer from non runners or jerky locos.
Am I storing up trouble?

[Butler Henderson]

I have a largely inaccessible tunnel, due to the layout originally having been built for exhibition use where the back would be accessible. Concerned that a loco could become stuck attempting to clean the track I have adopted a Heljan 26 chassis to remote control battery operation. Potentially it rescue a stuck loco if the need arises.

[Colin_McLeod]

6 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

I can see this Thread getting locked quite soon....

 

Why? It's an interesting thread with  some good posts, including the OP's observations of what will and will not run on filthy track; something that is rarely tested. @The Johnster's comprehensive post contains a lot of useful information.

[Torper]

I thought that the OP was having us all on.  I'm still not sure....

[The Johnster]

I think it is all too easy when we are planning layouts to be optimistic about potential problems; we want xxxx but only have yyyy room so the only way we can get it in is to have a hidden section in that back corner that we can't get at easily, but crack on, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it (which will be too late).  Pessimism, or at least an afternoon of pessimism to temper the enthusiasm to crack on and get the dream layout running, is not entirely a bad thing in these circumstances.  Think negatively, deliberately and conciously; what might go wrong?  Because, and trust me on this, it will go wrong.  Especially on the hidden section in that back corner, which will inevitably be poorly maintained or neglected entirely because of it's inaccessibility and therefore is absolutely 100% bound to cause trouble no matter how carefully you build it! 

 

How often are you going to run the layout?  How long will it take to set up and put away at the end of a session if it's not a permanent erection (allow at least twice as much time to put it away as you think you'll need, or that you established in the trial run, because you are sooner or later, and probably sooner, going to have to put it away in a hurry to attend to something else and have to come back and do it all again properly.  What is the temperature range of the layout's location, have you allowed for expansion and contraction, which by the way loosens screws, and what about potential damp?  And, as we've discussed, how are you going to keep it clean, and, again, trust me on this, relying on cleaning coaches/trucks and/or Relcos will help, but no more than that. 

 

Can you reach everywhere you will ever need to easily, not just the obvious places but everywhere.  How is the ambient lighting?  How proof is the layout against you getting older and your joints stiffening up and breathing becomes more laborious?  Can you rescue it or at least the core of it if you have to move home for unforeseen circumstances (the point about unforeseen circumstances is that they are, um, unforeseen, and can only be prepared for on a contingency basis, but it is worth doing as much as you can all the same).   You can insure against fire, theft, and act of god, but not divorce, and you won't be in the mood to sort it out at the time...

 

A lot of this stuff is about foresight, and has to be a bit negative to cover as many of the bases as possible.  Most layouts end up in skips eventually, what is treasure to you is rubbish to others, and it is desirable to avoid or at least delay that fate for yours.

 

Once you've had your long dark teatime of the modelling soul, note the results and refer to them, but go back to being cheerful, hopeful, and positive afterwards, and enjoy your trains!

Edited October 1, 2023 by The Johnster

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, sncf231e said:

I never clean my track (when I am running clockwork trains😉)

Regards

Fred

Yes, that is an obvious solution. But finding suitable mechanisms, is a bit of a challenge!

 

There were articles is the Model Railway Constructor in the 70s about using the techniques used in rotary dial phones, to better control the speed of clockwork mechanisms.

 

But I suspect that it's easier to clean track!

[Andy Hayter]

2 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Why? It's an interesting thread with  some good posts, including the OP's observations of what will and will not run on filthy track; something that is rarely tested. @The Johnster's comprehensive post contains a lot of useful information.

 

Actually that is pretty irrelevant since whatever does run well on filthy track will soon have crud encrusted wheels  and will then no longer run on filthy track.  

[The Johnster]

Or on clean track either, and it'll make that track dirty as well. 

 

This tomfoolery actually illustrates an issue with dirt, which is that it has to be cleaned off!.  No sh*t, Sherlock, but in fact some cleaning methods do not clean at all in the sense of removing the dirt and sucking into something that can be disposed of, actually moving the dirt around and spreading it more thinly to give the impression that your track is clean.  The dirty bits are less dirty than they were, but the clean bits are now dirty as well, which is not my definition of progress.  Track needs to be cleaned by physical effort, and polished to help keep it clean, and this is hard work if you've let things slide.  Sorry.

Edited October 2, 2023 by The Johnster