Environmentally sustainable model railway exhibitions

[Nearholmer]

Having slightly “gone off on one” about the subject of the environmental (non) sustainability of the “big out of town show” paradigm that larger model railway exhibitions have settled into over the past couple of decades, and seem to be comfortably returning to post-pandemic, and having been told that anything other than that model is “impractical”, here is a place for us to chew over the issues.

 

My proposition is that:

 

- the “big out of town” approach leads to an environmentally unsustainable amount of car travel by attendees. In the case of GETS, which set me off on this, people report having travelled many hours by car in each direction, and raise many gripes about car parking, and certainly the former seems very typical of the result of choosing “out of town venues”;

 

- that by choosing venues that are readily accessible by public transport, and cutting car parking to the bare bone, making it available only to those who cannot use public transport, car use, and with it resource consumption, and pollution, notably CO2 emissions, could be sliced back very markedly (even with four people on board, a petrol car emits slightly more CO2 per passenger km travelled than does rail travel, 48g/pass.km vs 41g/pass.km, and the comparison gets worse the fewer people are in the car);

 

- that with creative thought, and use of “non traditional” venues, very worthwhile model railway exhibitions could be organised in many places within easy walking distance of good public transport facilities;

 

- model railway exhibitions might not be the biggest cause of optional car travel, and thereby optional pollution and contribution to climate change, but they are very much optional activities, and therefore a much less painful place to change our habits than many others.

 

Not so much part of the proposition, but more an observation/opinion, I wonder whether some clubs have got trapped into the “big out of town show” paradigm, with organising and delivering the show becoming almost the raison d’etre of the club. With that in mind it would be worth thinking about what the actual purpose of the big shows is for big clubs: is it the profit fed back into other club activity (I don’t know how much these shows “make” or how the profits benefit the clubs); or, is it the “social service to fellow hobbyists”, creating places for people to meet, share, and enjoy themselves?

 

So, am I completely off with the fairies, or is environmental sustainability something we ought to factor much more into thinking about exhibitions, and have we become blinded to other ways of tackling it because the “big out of town” model is so comparatively easy?

 

 

 

- 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Nearholmer

[AY Mod]

It's hardly the fault of the club/venue that, even if the venue is well-served by public transport, many of the prospective customers are not as well-served at their starting point.

 

How many travel to the NEC by car vs public transport?

[chris p bacon]

2 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

It's hardly the fault of the club/venue that, even if the venue is well-served by public transport, many of the prospective customer are not as well-served at their starting point.

 

Good point. My nearest station is 22 miles away. I made a journey yesterday to Grantham from it (Berwick upon Tweed) but it's still a 35 minute car journey to get to BoT.  If I opted for the bus, it's possible, but becomes a 30+ mile and 2 hour journey.

[Nearholmer]

There are potentially complicated and fallible ways of dis-incentivising car travel to exhibitions, substantial discounts for showing a valid rail/bus ticket for at least part of the trip for instance, and there is a brutally simple way: don’t provide a car park, and hold it where driving-in during show hours is a PITA.

 

The “New Horticultural Hall” venue in Westminster that was popular for shows for a while in the 1980s was one where there was good public transport and the above applied, ditto a place in Oxford (was it a tech college or school?) that was (is?) used as a venue.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Nearholmer

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

There are potentially complicated and fallible ways of dis-incentivising car travel to exhibitions, substantial discounts for showing a valid rail/bus ticket for at least part of the trip for instance, and there is a brutally simple way: don’t provide a car park, and hold it where driving-in during sho hours is a PITA.

 

Well, there wouldn't be a show to be worried about the following year. 

 

No layouts permitted that can't be carried on the bus?

 

Should we all move to be within a 15 min walk of viable public transport? I visit a lot of modellers and not many are.

[Nearholmer]

5 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

Well, there wouldn't be a show to be worried about the following year. 

 

No layouts permitted that can't be carried on the bus?

The two venues I mention both had/have sensible “set up access” outside the sort of hours that show doors are open for.

 

Its the visitors’ car travel, not the exhibitors’ I’m mainly questioning - I have an inkling that in many cases very long trips, with very big layouts are to some degree self-limited by the costs of vehicle hire and fuel already.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Nearholmer

[mozzer models]

9 miles to my local station but the last bus home leaves the town at 17.55 so that me never attending a show thats  not in my home town if i want time to look at all of the show

Edited October 15, 2023 by mozzer models

[mozzer models]

23 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

It's hardly the fault of the club/venue that, even if the venue is well-served by public transport, many of the prospective customers are not as well-served at their starting point.

 

How many travel to the NEC by car vs public transport?

for me my last buss leaves the town before 6pm so as you say how would i get home

 

[Nearholmer]

Can you park at/near your local station?

[chris p bacon]

Just now, Nearholmer said:

Can you park at/near your local station?

Yes, one rate of £3.50.

[mozzer models]

for me to get to GET's puplic transport 6 hours to get there to get home I would only get 2 hours before having to leave (last bus 17.55)

but in my car its only 3 1/2 hours each way & cost over 50% less

If i were to attend I know which way i would travel

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by mozzer models

[Wheatley]

Taking this argument to its logical conclusion, the most sustainable way to hold a model railway exhibition is not to hold it at all, anything else is just tinkering with deck chairs. Surely in the face of potentially catastrophic climate breakdown any non-essential activity with a carbon footprint is just grossly irresponsible ? And yes, that includes the entire RTR sector. All the wellbeing benefits you get from participating in a creative hobby won't be worth a fig when the lights go out and food production collapses. 

 

In the meantime, the profitability of most shows must be pretty marginal if some of the recent losses are an indication. The most cost effective venue which is accessible for the most punters has to be top of the list. Personally, I'll consider going if either I can drive there in an hour or so, or there's a station within walking distance and I can get there and back by train same day without too many changes. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Wheatley

[mozzer models]

11 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Can you park at/near your local station?

yes & cost me 1/4 of the fuel cost on top of the travel cost until public transport is cheaper than by car it will not work for long distance travel

Edited October 15, 2023 by mozzer models

[AY Mod]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

cutting car parking to the bare bone, making it available only to those who cannot use public transport

 

I'd be interested to know how you are going to police that.

 

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

is environmental sustainability something we ought to factor much more into thinking about exhibitions, and have we become blinded to other ways of tackling it because the “big out of town” model is so comparatively easy

 

It's a personal responsibility issue we all must take by virtue of what and how we consume resources (a far wider ranging subject than where an event is held). For those who must use a vehicle they are at their least efficient within town and city (and cause most exposure to pollutants) and if an event is out of town and an organiser needs to maximise attendance they will arrange transport from the nearest viable transport hub.

[Nearholmer]

8 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

profitability of most shows must be pretty marginal

Which goes to one of the questions that I posed about the purpose of exhibitions from a club perspective (GETS and a few others I believe to be entirely commercial). I know what the score is for the club I’m a member of, but I’ve no idea what proportion of things like clubroom rentals are typically derived from show earnings, or whether the real ‘win’ is in terms of creating enjoyable events and trading places for fellow hobbyists. 

[woodenhead]

39 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

It's hardly the fault of the club/venue that, even if the venue is well-served by public transport, many of the prospective customers are not as well-served at their starting point.

 

How many travel to the NEC by car vs public transport?

I used to use the train, but it is actually a PITA to get from Manchester to Birmingham Internation and not because there aren't direct services, it is just that what services there are get very full on a typical Saturday let alone for the NEC.  I ended up using Warrington Bank Quay and taking Avanti trains before Covid as they were emptier to begin with and I would get a first class seat for the return as it would be less likely to be full of standing punters.  Then after Covid we've nothing but disruption be it self inflicted by the rail industry cutting services or the seemingly endless industrial action.  This year like last I am driving to the NEC, I can leave the house around 7am, be in the car park by 9am and at the queue to enter by 9:30, when I leave I will not be in a crush.

 

The NEC should be great for public transport but the cost of it versus the car, the crushingly full services and the general unpleasantness of it all puts me off.  The Scottish equivalent in Glasgow is nothing like it, you rock up in an Avanti, swap to the lower level and then do the walk from the station, they even do the shuttle buses for the show but the train is not an issue so unless you need door to door you shouldn't need to use the shuttle.

[Mike Bellamy]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

With that in mind it would be worth thinking about what the actual purpose of the big shows is for big clubs: is it the profit fed back into other club activity (I don’t know how much these shows “make” or how the profits benefit the clubs); or, is it the “social service to fellow hobbyists”, creating places for people to meet, share, and enjoy themselves?

 

Profit.

After running the successful Derby show at the Assembly Rooms we were able to buy our clubroom from the local authority. We continued to run our exhibitions with the surplus going into a "building fund", moving from the Assembly Rooms to Moorways sports centre and then the Derby Roundhouse until that venue was closed due to covid. A surveyors report on our building (post-war prefab concrete framed building) said that it wasn't in danger of imminent collapse but had a limited life - even though every show made at least £2,500, we are still nowhere near the estimated sum of £200,000 we need !!

.

 

 

[AY Mod]

2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

The NEC should be great for public transport but the cost of it versus the car, the crushingly full services and the general unpleasantness of it all puts me off.  The Scottish equivalent in Glasgow is nothing like it, you rock up in an Avanti, swap to the lower level and then do the walk from the station, they even do the shuttle buses for the show but the train is not an issue so unless you need door to door you shouldn't need to use the shuttle.

 

That aligns with my personal experiences for both shows and a trip to Glasgow is more enjoyable than Bham Intl even if it's six times as far away.

[DaveF]

My nearest show is about 25 minutes away by car.  By bus it is more than twice as far and requires a change, total time almost 2 hours.  In theory I can do it by bus, Metro, walk but my local bus does not go to the Metro station, so that means 2 buses or a very long walk to start with to get the bus to the Metro.

 

Other exhibitions mean going south of the Tyne, I have no idea how to get to them by bus - except that one isn't served by buses, the other two I think would need at least 3 buses each way, goodness knows how long that would take.  They are all less than 40 minutes by car.

 

One of the reasons why all most all council operated car parking here in Northumberland is free is so that people can shop, just try getting to a lot of the county by bus.

 

David

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Having slightly “gone off on one” about the subject of the environmental (non) sustainability of the “big out of town show” paradigm that larger model railway exhibitions have settled into over the past couple of decades, and seem to be comfortably returning to post-pandemic, and having been told that anything other than that model is “impractical”, here is a place for us to chew over the issues.

 

My proposition is that:

 

- the “big out of town” approach leads to an environmentally unsustainable amount of car travel by attendees. In the case of GETS, which set me off on this, people report having travelled many hours by car in each direction, and raise many gripes about car parking, and certainly the former seems very typical of the result of choosing “out of town venues”;

 

- that by choosing venues that are readily accessible by public transport, and cutting car parking to the bare bone, making it available only to those who cannot use public transport, car use, and with it resource consumption, and pollution, notably CO2 emissions, could be sliced back very markedly (even with four people on board, a petrol car emits slightly more CO2 per passenger km travelled than does rail travel, 48g/pass.km vs 41g/pass.km, and the comparison gets worse the fewer people are in the car);

 

- that with creative thought, and use of “non traditional” venues, very worthwhile model railway exhibitions could be organised in many places within easy walking distance of good public transport facilities;

 

- model railway exhibitions might not be the biggest cause of optional car travel, and thereby optional pollution and contribution to climate change, but they are very much optional activities, and therefore a much less painful place to change our habits than many others.

 

Not so much part of the proposition, but more an observation/opinion, I wonder whether some clubs have got trapped into the “big out of town show” paradigm, with organising and delivering the show becoming almost the raison d’etre of the club. With that in mind it would be worth thinking about what the actual purpose of the big shows is for big clubs: is it the profit fed back into other club activity (I don’t know how much these shows “make” or how the profits benefit the clubs); or, is it the “social service to fellow hobbyists”, creating places for people to meet, share, and enjoy themselves?

 

So, am I completely off with the fairies, or is environmental sustainability something we ought to factor much more into thinking about exhibitions, and have we become blinded to other ways of tackling it because the “big out of town” model is so comparatively easy?

 

 

 

- 

I do see and understand the issues that others have raised in response to your original post but I still think this is a good point. In any case, lots of other organisations (in various sectors) are now looking more closely at sustainability and there is a certain irony given that the railways we model are themselves generally a very sustainable form of transport. However, is it more about the location of suitable venues rather than exhibition organisers’ decisions? As has been covered already, getting to Warley (for example) can be quite frustrating and expensive by car or train, depending on where you start from, and whether you attend on Saturday or Sunday.

 

I like the concept of the ‘social service to fellow hobbyists’; I wonder whether you need a few large shows to do this or whether in some ways it is done better by a larger number of smaller ones?

[woodenhead]

I think the issue here is that since Covid the exhibition circuit has split into two camps - the smaller show, viable because they can be in smaller venues and don't expect thousands of visitors and the big shows run by a commercial entity that need to use formal exhibition space as would any other type of exhibition expecting a similar number of visitors.

 

What's missing are the shows in the middle such as a Wigan (though it felt quite a big show and perhaps that was the issue it outgrew it's organisers) and a Manchester.  But these shows tend to use more limited space sport hall type locations, lack parking and lack shuttle buses making it hard all round.   Wigan suffered on a match day, it was a bus journey or a good walk from North Western, Manchester has moved about a bit and has a new location, no parking but a station a 15 minute walk away.  Wigan couldn't make it pay, numbers for the last show (and the best one I'd seen) were pitiful, they felt they could no longer take the risk because of all the disruptions since Covid.  I am glad Manchester is still going but I cannot think of any other similar sized shows in city centres with easy public transport options.

 

Looking at the bigger shows (from my perspective in Manchester):

• Warley - plenty of public transport options though not very nice, would prefer to drive now.
• Alexandra Palace - disincentives for using cars already in place, lots of public transport options if I can get a cheap Avanti and they are not on strike.
• Doncaster - shuttle bus options and a big railway station as long as the trains are running, but lots of car parking otherwise.  It's a toss up which mode of transport I would use.
• Bristol - it's a rather car centric show and the wrong side of Birmingham for me to want to go to for a day trip.
• Milton Keynes - plenty of trains and a shuttle service as long as you can get to the WCML, I wouldn't drive that far.
• Glasgow - too far to drive and why would I when the train journey is so nice.
• Stafford - plenty of trains and a shuttle service but it is quicker and less hassle to drive
• York - I go onEaster Sunday and the motorways are generally quiet.

When it comes to shows I do look at the public transport options but sometimes the convenience of the car to the location makes it the obvious choice.  Yesterday for example, I got up at 5:30 to be on a train at 7:15 to get to the venue at 9:15.  That involved a walk, two trams and a train which even at 7:15am was quite full.  Avanti services generally have some space as they are 9 and 11 coach trains, but a trip to Doncaster (or Peterborough in the past) and you are down to 2 and 3 car units going through Sheffield, they get quite full and make a lot of stops, something I factor in before making the decision about the mode of transport.

 

When it comes to global warming, the direction of travel isn't so far to restrict car use but to encourage us away from oil based to battery based vehicles.  The reason being that the country has spent the past 60 years building a car reliant economy and that's why all these out of town centre exhibition spaces exist because they've been built around the car.  So really many of these organisers should be applauded for laying on free shuttle buses because they don't have to, we could be left to find our own way to the venue just like the car drivers have to but they are already doing their bit by offering an option that allows long distance public transport to be the option for some people.

[wombatofludham]

Normally, if I was to attend the Warley show, I'd have a choice of direct train from Fairbourne, which has a more regular service to International than Dudley, Aldridge or Brownhills in the Midlands, or drive.  At the moment the trains are off from Fairbourne as they rebuild the bridge at Barmouth and do track works elsewhere, but normally it isn't a bad service.

However.  The winter Sunday service is one train up the coast.  I wouldn't do Warley on a Saturday even for free tickets and a trolley dash around all the stalls.  It is horrendous.  Crowded, hot and sweaty and thoroughly unpleasant, I have in the past tended to go on the Sunday, which means no alternative than to drive.  In fact, even if I could bring myself to visit on a Saturday doing it by train would still be problematical as the the train times are such to get a good length of time at the show would mean me catching the red eye out of Fairbourne and coming back the last connection from Birmingham would mean me waiting for nearly two hours in Machynlleth.  And trust me, nobody wants to hang around Mach for two hours.  So despite superficially being able, in theory, to do the whole trip by train, practically the car is the only option.  Given my Swedish State Skip is quicker to Wolverhampton than the train despite the less than perfect roads as far as Shrewsbury, although more expensive in fuel and allied costs than train tickets in advance, (plus I do tend to do "linked trips" and do bulk DIY or bulky shopping whilst in the Midlands) I rarely use the train out of Fairbourne because it is just the wrong side of useful for my needs.

That said, I'm really going green for this year's Warley show.  I'm not going.

[Willie Whizz]

I don’t claim to be “Mister Average” in this but I might well be. I attend 4-5 model railway shows a year, almost exclusively within a 60-70 mile radius.
 

I do not wish to minimise the overall effects of climate change and global warming on our planet, but the fact is that Britain is responsible for less than 1% of global carbon emissions; therefore the proportion of that percentage caused by travel to model railway exhibitions within this country is pretty much infinitesimally small. 
 

Consequently I feel I have to ask: why should we even be worrying about it on any serious basis? If individuals feel they have to do something, by all means go by convenient public transport or bike, but don’t try to compel other folks who don’t find that realistic or affordable. 
 

Anyone who feels really strongly about these issues should consider participating in a lawful demonstration outside the Embassies of those countries which are currently the biggest and worst polluters (it being already too late to do anything about ‘historic’ situations). We all know who they are. Oh, I forgot, there aren’t any such demonstrations; how curious … why might that be?

[SR71]

Just looked up a few 'in-town' shows I've been to in the last year. I live on the south coast and have been to shows in Brighton, Worthing, Lancing, Plumpton (out of town but near a station) & South London.

 

The one with the most parking I could walk to. Of the rest (assuming the trains are running which they generally haven't been whenever I want them at the weekend) Google gives the following comparison;

- 4 miles, 11min drive, 54min by train with a 30min walk.

- 22 miles, 34min drive, 2hr 13min by train with 39min walk.

- 13 miles, 21min drive, 1hr 15 train with a 30min walk.

- 57 miles, 1hr 17min drive, 2hrs 29mins train with a 34min walk

 

That's both ways. Mrs SR71 isn't giving me a pass to disappear for an entire day to a show I might spend only an hour or two at. As it is I will usually combine with other errands. I'm able (most of the time) to walk for that kind of time as well as around a show, a lot aren't.

 

In the south, outside London, the transport infrastructure isn't there even for in town shows. Combine that with a lack of parking and the will be a very low turn out. The bus will take me shopping but nowhere much else, and not with any urgency.

 

Even the South London show, which you can get to easily on public transport, would mean to, get there for opening, I'd likely need to leave before the first train.

 

I'm very fortunate to have a car and I genuinely admire the herculean efforts that some without have to go through to get to shows. Once there they also constantly have the doubt that, although they got to the show, will they be able to get home?

 

The car parks at shows increasingly have EV/Hybrid cars in them. Probably the move to make is to venues with charging facilities.

 

 

[john new]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

 

Well, there wouldn't be a show to be worried about the following year. 

 

No layouts permitted that can't be carried on the bus?

 

Should we all move to be within a 15 min walk of viable public transport? I visit a lot of modellers and not many are.

Even when, as I do, you have a very good and for me convenient stops local bus service then going onwards by public transport isn't easy. Two shows I could have gone to yesterday and/or today had other commitments not got in the way.

 

GETS = local bus - SW mainline - tube - WC mainline - shuttle bus then the converse to get home again. 

Poole. = local bus -SW mainline - local bus and then the converse

 

In both cases had I been able to go my own car would have been so much easier. Conversely this week I have used our local bus more than my own car for trips into the town centre. Weymouth show is coming up at the end of the month, I will be using the car as I am demo'ing but Weymouth College is a venue that visitors can get to by local service buses provided they live near their routes, many of the local suburbs have no bus!