Misrouted GWR train 28th October.

[melmerby]

On 29/10/2023 at 17:51, johnofwessex said:

Its a serious problem in the USA

I saw a YT video where an Amtrak train went the wrong way because of frozen points (seems implausible but that was the claimed reason)

It was going at some speed over a junction but was directed the wrong way, the engineer quickly realised what was wrong and brought the train to a halt. After a delay the train reversed slowly back over the junction  and eventually resumed the right course. Presumably something had been done about the pointwork.

[The Pilotman]

I’m presuming there is no indication to the driver of which way the junction is set until sighting the junction signal (E193) approaching the over bridge at Charlton. The line speed on the up approaching and through Cogload on the Bristol line is 100mph and it’s 90mph through the junction towards Castle Cary (for which the junction signal shows a position 4 junction indicator). Throw in a bit of poor visibility and it’s no wonder this could happen if there’s no prior indication of which way the route is set. 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Mike_Walker said:

But this case has nothing to do with removing route knowledge.  I understand the driver involved still signs both routes.  The issue was that the train was being misrouted without prior warning so the driver correctly stopped and challenged the route.

Thanks Mike .  So I wonder why it wasn't decided to let it carry on via Bristol and avoid the need to set back over an unsignalled route (albeit with no facing points involved)?

[125_driver]

On 29/10/2023 at 18:18, The Pilotman said:

According to one of the passengers, the train stopped “halfway to Bristol”. Halfway from Cogload to Bristol would be somewhere around Weston-super-Mare so I’m going to say they’re talking out of their ****.

The driver was indeed a Plymouth one, and she could not have continued to Bristol as Plymouth bizarrely no longer sign Taunton to Bristol (whilst Gloucester drivers DO.. .!) . Anyway, this is all massive press sensationalism,  surprise surprise,  the train ran a mere 2 carriage lengths past the junction signal, and hadn't even made it onto the junction divide! 

[125_driver]

On 31/10/2023 at 17:50, Mike_Walker said:

But this case has nothing to do with removing route knowledge.  I understand the driver involved still signs both routes.  The issue was that the train was being misrouted without prior warning so the driver correctly stopped and challenged the route.

Wrong. Very much involved route knowledge. In the old days a Plymouth driver could In theory carry on via Bristol , however since that route knowledge was (bizarely) removed, there was no way the driver in question could have carried on that way. Though as you say, The drivers actions where spot on , she stopped as quickly as physically possible, just unfortunate with the sighting of that signal that you don't get long enough to stop in time. 

[Mike_Walker]

34 minutes ago, 125_driver said:

Wrong. Very much involved route knowledge. In the old days a Plymouth driver could In theory carry on via Bristol , however since that route knowledge was (bizarely) removed, there was no way the driver in question could have carried on that way. Though as you say, The drivers actions where spot on , she stopped as quickly as physically possible, just unfortunate with the sighting of that signal that you don't get long enough to stop in time. 

Thanks for the correction, I'd been misinformed.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, 125_driver said:

 The drivers actions where spot on , she stopped as quickly as physically possible, just unfortunate with the sighting of that signal that you don't get long enough to stop in time. 

Is that not considered a deficiency in the design of the signalling arrangements ?

[Oldddudders]

It sounds as if the best was done in the cab - but the NR end of things, presumably in consultation with GWR, made a meal of it all. Another testimony to the advantages of vertical integration, so decisions involve fewer parties and vested interests, and can be more quickly made. 

 

In my era on suburban Southern, route-knowledge was seldom an issue, and there were published standing instructions about drivers accepting alternative routings when offered. Thus a wrong description from Purley or South Croydon once sent the Brighton Belle via Crystal Palace - East Croydon having spotted the error and quickly advised Norwood Junction - but apart from losing a few minutes, no crisis. 

[caradoc]

29 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

but the NR end of things, presumably in consultation with GWR, made a meal of it all

 

How did the NR end of things make a meal of it all? It seems that the train was simply reversed back in behind the signal and was then correctly rerouted. 

 

[Oldddudders]

25 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

How did the NR end of things make a meal of it all? It seems that the train was simply reversed back in behind the signal and was then correctly rerouted. 

 

21 minutes? Are you serious? And the cab was, so we are told above, only two coach-lengths past a green signal? So no SPAD issue, and driver apparently not too shaken up - as can legitimately be the case. 

[125_driver]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

21 minutes? Are you serious? And the cab was, so we are told above, only two coach-lengths past a green signal? So no SPAD issue, and driver apparently not too shaken up - as can legitimately be the case. 

21 minutes, Largely due to the need for the driver to change ends twice on a 10 car set  (2 x 5 car IETs) which involved getting down onto the ballast both to reverse and then to regain the front cab. Added to the inevitable safety communications involved, 21 minutes is perfectly reasonable. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by 125_driver
.....

[tomparryharry]

It happened when the Cardiff-Pontypridd route was rationalised. Maesmawr 'box was switched out at approximately 21:30, as it was only gap in the service when it was possible for the afternoon man  to switch out. Although the Maesmawr signaller accepted on the up relief, 21:30 was the recognised closing time.

 

As a consequence, don't send traffic on the up relief , after 20:00, from walnut Tree Jcn.  But! It did happen. Arriving at Maesmawr to find the 'box in darkness. "Where's the bobby? 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, 125_driver said:

21 minutes, Largely due to the need for the driver to change ends twice on a 10 car set  (2 x 5 car IETs) which involved getting down onto the ballast both to reverse and then to regain the front cab. Added to the inevitable safety communications involved, 21 minutes is perfectly reasonable. 

Quite agree.  In fact in the circumstances I reckon 21 minutes was even a bit better than 'perfectly reasonable' especially as there are no decent walking conditions in that vicinity.

[KeithMacdonald]

On 29/10/2023 at 15:52, Kris said:

Apparently a GWR train from Penzance to Paddington was misrouted yesterday and had to reverse. It had started heading towards Bristol. I assume that this happened at Taunton. I suspect there are some red faces somewhere and an investigation happening. 

 

Not via Okehampton then?

[Wickham Green too]

15 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Not via Okehampton then?

They tried that first but someone had nicked Devonport Junction !

[caradoc]

23 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

21 minutes? Are you serious?

 

Yes, as per other replies, 21 minutes seems perfectly reasonable to me. How long do you think it should have taken for the Driver to bring the train to a stand, contact the Signaller, report what had occurred, agree on a course of action, shut down the leading cab, walk through the train to the rear cab, open it up, advise the Signaller they were ready to make the move and receive permission for it, drive the train back inside the signal, shut down the cab, walk back through the train, open up the cab and set off? And of course keep the Guard advised of what was happening too. 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by caradoc
Clarification

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, caradoc said:

... walk through the train ...

Not so simple - as has been pointed out it was TWO units so no through gangway !

[Mike_Walker]

Was it?  RTT listed it as only one 5-car, 800013.  It should have been a 10-car.

[Wickham Green too]

The post at 15.09 yesterday seemed to think it was 2 x 5 ..... I stand to be corrected.

[Oldddudders]

On 09/11/2023 at 15:09, 125_driver said:

21 minutes, Largely due to the need for the driver to change ends twice on a 10 car set  (2 x 5 car IETs) which involved getting down onto the ballast both to reverse and then to regain the front cab. Added to the inevitable safety communications involved, 21 minutes is perfectly reasonable. 

I thought the driver had radio comms with the signaller? And why does she need to change ends at all? The Train Manager should be whistled up and sent to the back cab where presumably he/she is passed out as competent to sit a in a leading cab, able to apply the brake as necessary, and in loudaphone comms with the driver. 

 

Is the C21 railway really unable to do what 10/12 car Southern EMUs could do in the '60s? 

[phil-b259]

7 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

Was it?  RTT listed it as only one 5-car, 800013.  It should have been a 10-car.

RTT, like any computer system is not always 100% correct. Just because it says one thing does not guarantee that’s what physically transpires….

 

 

[phil-b259]

45 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I thought the driver had radio comms with the signaller? And why does she need to change ends at all? The Train Manager should be whistled up and sent to the back cab where presumably he/she is passed out as competent to sit a in a leading cab, able to apply the brake as necessary, and in loudaphone comms with the driver. 

 

Is the C21 railway really unable to do what 10/12 car Southern EMUs could do in the '60s? 

Train managers are not competent to act as drivers or shutters under any circumstances!

 

Radio communication makes zero difference to competency requirements

 

Were they to undertake such an action and ANYTHING untoward happen the ORR / RAIB would come down hard on the company concerned for using people in competencies which they do not hold.

 

Also being in radio contact with the signaller does not excuse the requirement for a driver to have good visibility in the direction of travel - particularly when that involves making an unsignaled move so it’s entirely appropriate that the driver physically swapped ends to reverse the train behind the signal

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

On 09/11/2023 at 11:26, Michael Hodgson said:

Is that not considered a deficiency in the design of the signalling arrangements ?

NO.

 

You forget that we give trains headcodes and fit train describer a in signal boxes for a reason!

Routing information at junctions is provided simply so that drivers can control their speed - it is not designed to providing routing information in terms of where a train service may be routed geographically speaking.

 

In recent decades there have been attempts to improve this on a case by case basis* but these tend to be installed to solve specific issues and are not widespread because a competent signaller and train describer systems should make them unnecessary.

 

 

* https://www.railsigns.uk/sect6page5.html

 

[Oldddudders]

54 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Train managers are not competent to act as drivers or shutters under any circumstances!

Why not? They took over the guard's responsibilities, and he did all sorts of stuff  - no doubt for less pay. So it is all about de-skilling and saving training costs? 

 

As for radio - surely the communication is nearly instant, so quite different from walking back to use an SPT? Thus a very quick agreement between driver and signaller about what needs to be done? 

[TheSignalEngineer]

I remember this sort of thing happeming a few times at Birmingham New Street. The station area was on the centre panel and Proof house which was the first signal beyond the station was on the south panel. As the box had only just been opened the  two signalmen on these sections were not in the habit of telling each other what was going on if there were any changes to script. If for any reason the order of trains departing was changed it was pot luck as to which way it would go at Proof House. The first occasion I remember it happening the Walsall local which was due out three minutes in front of the London train was held up due to a fault on the unit. The centre signalman pulled out the route and set up for the Lomdon without telling the south signalman who had the route set towards Aston. It wasn,t helped in this instance by the NS149 having a theatre route indicator mounted above the signal meaning it couldn't be seen through the tunnel.  In BR days drivers on electric locos were expected to sign everything under the wires so it wasn't a problem from that point of view but the passengers must have been a bit confused when they passed New Street for a second time after a 20-minute tour of Aston, Perry Barr, Handsworth and Winson Green. The problem was partly solved by dropping the indicator down to the bottom of the cage so it was visible as soon as the sinal spect came into view.

 

Another incident there where I got involved in the investigation was when the centre signalman routed a return excursion for Leamington towards Bordesley, forgetting that it was booked to set down at Coventry on the way. The driver stopped and told the signalman, who promptly told him to set back and he would swing the points. Unfortunately he didn't check what was happening behind as the Centre signalman had sent a train through a facing crossover to the rear. The last vehicle of the excursion stopped straddling the crossover then the driver set off again. When I passed on the way to work the next morning the last vehicle... was still wedged fast across the London lines under Park Street bridge.