Avanti services deteriorate again

[melmerby]

Hi Al

I see Avanti's service has gone to pot again.

Last Thursday whilst in New Street  I could hear that a lot of Avanti's services had been cancelled "due to lack of Train Crew" said the announcements. Tough luck anybody wishing to use them.

Today it has been reported in the TV news that they are cutting back on their schedules, yet again with over 30% of December services cancelled.

 

(Avati weren't alone as WMR and XC also had cancellations for the same reason but not on the same scale)

 

They obviously can't meet their contract requirements so why should they be allowed to carry on?

About time for OLR to take over and add them the 4 franchises they are already running?

Edited December 20, 2023 by melmerby

[33C]

13 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Hi Al

I see Avanti's service has gone to pot again.

Last Thursday whilst in New Street  I could hear that a lot of Avanti's services had been cancelled "due to lack of Train Crew" said the announcements. Tough luck anybody wishing to use them.

Today it has been reported in the TV news that they are cutting back on their schedules, yet again with over 30% of December services cancelled.

 

(Avati weren't alone as WMR and XC also had cancellations for the same reason but not on the same scale)

 

They obvionusly can't meet their contract requirements so why should they be allowed to carry on?

About time for OLR to take over and add them the 4 franchises they are already running?

Doesn't matter who's running them if your short of drivers.

We have had a few retirements, deaths and transfers this last few months but not seen any replacements apart from a couple of part-timers on fast track training schemes.

Everything is covered with o/t and RDR, if possible, but with the Dia's being long enough already, not many fancy another trip if already feeling fatigued. 

[melmerby]

 

7 minutes ago, 33C said:

not seen any replacements

But surely that's Avanti's problem?

If you are under contract to the Government to provide a certain level of service you should have enough staff to provide that service.

 

[phil-b259]

19 minutes ago, melmerby said:

 

But surely that's Avanti's problem?

If you are under contract to the Government to provide a certain level of service you should have enough staff to provide that service.

 

 

Yes it is - the point was more that Stripping Avanti of the contract doesn't magically create fully trained drivers out of thin air* so whoever takes over - be it DOR or another private sector firm is still going to provide a rubbish service!

 

About the only 'benefit' from kicking Avanti out is symbolic, creating the impression that you would be seen to 'punish' poor performance - but given the fundamental issue is Avanti not employing enough staff AND the paymasters at the DfT demanding minimal staff recruitment to keep costs down its not exactly an inviting prospect for anyone else to take on.

 

*driver training takes 6-12 months (and yes pinching drivers from other operators will shorten the timescales BUT will then go and leave the TOCs the drivers have come from with holes in their own rosters) simply transferring passengers pain elsewhere...

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by phil-b259

[33C]

51 minutes ago, melmerby said:

 

But surely that's Avanti's problem?

If you are under contract to the Government to provide a certain level of service you should have enough staff to provide that service.

 

Like running Harrods with 10 managers and 1 retail assistant in the whole place...

[33C]

One thing that is starting to grate...

Station announcements stating the service is delayed "due to the late running of the driver"!

The reason I'm not there is I'm still bringing the up service in which was delayed en route and I've only got x amount of time to shut it down, find what platform my back working is on, and then walk to the front, minimum time, 6 minutes when it's not all gone to hell in a hand-cart...all while getting dirty looks because everybody thinks my backs covered in jam and I couldn't get out of bed...

Thanks for that, like I really need more pressure after navigating all the signal,  point, OHL failures etc on the way in.

But, we still try and get it there on time because we are railwaymen. (AND women.) 

[phil-b259]

18 minutes ago, 33C said:

 

But, we still try and get it there on time because we are railwaymen. (AND women.) 

 

EXACTLY!

 

As I have said to several people over the years my loyalty (as a front line rail worker) is to the railway as a integrated system / family / idea - not to a cooperate identity which is increasingly shafting users because they are more interested in kowtowing to Whitehall and know-nothing politicians.

Edited December 20, 2023 by phil-b259

[Wheatley]

It might not create drivers out of thin air (especially if the franchise bid relied on drivers working normal levels of overtime to keep headcount down) but a change of owners might just stop individual drivers being so pissed off that they turn down all overtime and make themselves unavailable for non-contracted Sundays.  

 

It would certainly clear the pitch to allow RDW Agreement negotiations with ASLEF to recommence. Cf TPE. 

 

Say what you like about ASLEF but drivers are now in the position that employers need them to work overtime, and drivers don't need to work overtime. ASLEF doesn't dictate TOC staffing levels, TOCs do. 

 

[phil-b259]

8 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

 

 but a change of owners might just stop individual drivers being so pissed off that they turn down all overtime and make themselves unavailable for non-contracted Sundays.  

 

 

I doubt it!

 

Please remember that ASLEF are in the middle of a very bitter pay dispute with the TOCs so they are hardly likely to start talks about anything else until that is settled*.

 

Another reason why changing the operator won't help....

 

Now changing the Government on the other hand....

 

* Which is not something the TOCs have the power to do seeing as they ALL have clauses in their contracts which requires the Secretary of State to sign off ANY pay proposals

Edited December 20, 2023 by phil-b259

[Talltim]

20 minutes ago, 33C said:

One thing that is starting to grate...

Station announcements stating the service is delayed "due to the late running of the driver"!

The reason I'm not there is I'm still bringing the up service in which was delayed en route and I've only got x amount of time to shut it down, find what platform my back working is on, and then walk to the front, minimum time, 6 minutes when it's not all gone to hell in a hand-cart...all while getting dirty looks because everybody thinks my backs covered in jam and I couldn't get out of bed...

Thanks for that, like I really need more pressure after navigating all the signal,  point, OHL failures etc on the way in.

But, we still try and get it there on time because we are railwaymen. (AND women.) 

There's the issue 😁

[Talltim]

The TOCs could help themselves by saying publicly that the DfT/Treasury controls all their staff numbers, but for some reason they seem scared to do so

[C126]

2 minutes ago, Talltim said:

The TOCs could help themselves by saying publicly that the DfT/Treasury controls all their staff numbers, but for some reason they seem scared to do so

 

Could not agree more.  And also explain why they may not hire more trains/coaches to alleviate over-crowding.  More back-bone, please.

 

 

[gwrrob]

14 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Now changing the Government on the other hand....

 

Meet the new boss , same as the old boss ....

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

 

Meet the new boss , same as the old boss ....

 

Ever heard of the phrase 'its not what you say - its how you say it that matters'

 

In difficult times you want to motivate people - well let me tell you that right now right across the industry the current lot inhabiting Whitehall / Westminster are doing exactly the opposite!

 

A change in personnel to restore trust is sometimes all you need make all the difference.... 

[33C]

50 minutes ago, Talltim said:

There's the issue 😁

I don't "walk" the train into stations and 'elf 'n' safety" precludes me from running anywhere!

 

 

I did request a wheelchair once and that was a lot quicker...

Edited December 20, 2023 by 33C
Added detail.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

Hi Al

I see Avanti's service has gone to pot again.

Last Thursday whilst in New Street  I could hear that a lot of Avanti's services had been cancelled "due to lack of Train Crew" said the announcements. Tough luck anybody wishing to use them.

Today it has been reported in the TV news that they are cutting back on their schedules, yet again with over 30% of December services cancelled.

 

(Avati weren't alone as WMR and XC also had cancellations for the same reason but not on the same scale)

 

They obviously can't meet their contract requirements so why should they be allowed to carry on?

About time for OLR to take over and add them the 4 franchises they are already running?

The first thing you need to ask is why they are unable to cover traincrew diagrams?  A big part of the answer will inevitably be because they don't have enough staff to cover the workload.  So the supplementary question should be 'why not?'

 

At which [oint things will go very quiet unless you meet an untraceable somebody prepared to talk in confideence and tell you that DafT have been banning recruitment for ages.  Additionally on West Coast the previous franchise holders gifted a mess to their successors because they had kept down recruitment for their own purposes and had relied on overtime and Rest Day Working including on the part of Drivers.  Anyone with an ounce of railway operational knowledge and sense will tell you that can only go on for so long before people get fed up with it.  

 

If nutty, pig ignorant,  politicos (no doubt advised by equally ignorant unCivil nonServants) then start rabbiting on about people not being prepared to work overtime you can place a surr fire bet on the fact that those doing so will stick up a pair of fingers in the direction of said politico and anyone else who wants to run their life (and quite likely break various safety controls in the process).

 

THe reasons are very simple - there aren't enough people to cover the work and some of it is down to some past managers in provatised TOCs doing 'quick fic x' things to save money and help the climb the greasy pole (some of their names and past posts can be madeavailble by private PM only)..

 

As a past expert on calcularting the required number of Drivers to run a service I could solve the first part of Avanti's problem with the stroke of apen and tell them how many they need to recuit.  Then you need to go through the recruitment proces - several weeks - then you need to train them - getting on fira year - then you can cover your trains.  But many of the Drivers will v come from elsewhere and they too will need to go through the same process.  It was no different in BR days but at least we had the luxury of being allowed to plan future needs in advance and recruit accordingly and that eased things a bit.  

 

Any operator which relies on Drivers working Rest Days to cover the booked service is going to have to cancel trains - as happens on Short (formed) Great Western although I don't think they need RDW to keep running (I might be. wrong?))

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I doubt it!

 

Please remember that ASLEF are in the middle of a very bitter pay dispute with the TOCs so they are hardly likely to start talks about anything else until that is settled*.

 

Northern and TPE both have RDWAs agreed during the current dispute, which is how TPE have cut their training backlog by 2/5 in the last 6 months. 

 

54 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

A change in personnel to restore trust is sometimes all you need make all the difference.... 

 

Which was my point. 

 

For anyone wondering why the TOCs don't just tell it like it is and bat it all back to the DfT, the answer probably lies in the small print of their management contracts. Public control, private blame. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Wheatley

[john new]

Criticise the hand that feeds you/controls your contract and there is a good chance it will be withdrawn.

 

Looking from the outside in it appears as obvious that if the service, be that railways, the NHS or other service can’t run effectively without staff taking on rest day working and working overtime (whether paid or not) there is an understaffing problem.

 

The drivers don’t think they are being paid enough and staff shortages suggest either (a) the general workforce agrees hence the ongoing level of vacancies or (b) several areas of conspiracy theory suggesting that constant disruptions will encourage customers to stop using trains. If (b) then presumably a political decision.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by john new

[ColinK]

Up here in North Lancs/South Cumbria we simply don’t have a useable rail network.  As mentioned above Avanti have lots of cancellations, as do TPE although they don’t seem quite as bad at the moment, while Northern have so many cancellations - over 100 so far today - that it just isn’t sensible to use them.  The Morecambe line services are decimated daily, while the Barrow and Windermere lines have daily cancellations.

 

What is really annoying is that Northern are now hiding cancellations from the public.  Until recently all the cancelations were listed on their website on a line by line basis, so you could get the whole picture before deciding whether or not to travel. That has gone and been replaced by see journey check or National Rail. 

[Wheatley]

24 minutes ago, ColinK said:

 What is really annoying is that Northern are now hiding cancellations from the public.  Until recently all the cancelations were listed on their website on a line by line basis, so you could get the whole picture before deciding whether or not to travel. That has gone and been replaced by see journey check or National Rail. 

They're still on the website but you need to put an origin and destination in. If I remember I'll try to find out why after Christmas, I'm not in the office until January. 

[ColinK]

54 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

They're still on the website but you need to put an origin and destination in. If I remember I'll try to find out why after Christmas, I'm not in the office until January. 

Yes you can find out about an individual train, but Northern used to list all the cancellations for each line.

[Reorte]

Nearly got caught out by Northern cancellations last week, wanted to get Chinley - Sheffield, good job I thought "better check the time" because that was cancelled. Ended up Whaley Bridge - Stockport, Stockport - Sheffield. Cost considerably more, and nearly two hours after leaving home I was on a train passing about three hundred yards from my house...

 

On the way back I fell asleep and missing my stop, can't blame anyone other than myself for that one though! I could try blaming the rather good pub at the station at Sheffield...

 

On the general point if you want to keep staff, and want them to work well you need to treat them well. This doesn't necessarily mean money, although it's obviously part of the picture. If staff feel like they're being taken advantage of you've got issues.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Avanti are getting like the broken clock, only right twice a day.

Why not shut them down and transfer the drivers to other companies to improve some services at least, at least with no trains running punters know where they stand, (generally aimlessly on platforms at the moment).

 

Mike.

[Reorte]

12 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Avanti are getting like the broken clock, only right twice a day.

Why not shut them down and transfer the drivers to other companies to improve some services at least, at least with no trains running punters know where they stand, (generally aimlessly on platforms at the moment).

Even a bad service is better than none at all, especially on a major route like the WCML.

 

Even if you could free up drivers they'd almost certainly need route and likely traction training for somewhere else, and may be very unwilling to be uprooted and moved somewhere else anyway.

 

Unfortunately there are no quick fixes.

[darrel]

If a train operating company was to come out and tell the public the truth. The DFT are micro managing the railways. The DFT won't let us recruit more staff. The DFT won't let us negotiate pay with the unions etc. What would happen is simple.

Next time the franchise or any other franchise that the owning company has the franchise for, they will lose the franchise. 

We have seen it before when Virgin spoke out about the west coast franchise. The DFT went into anyone but Branson mode. They lost cross country they lost the west coast franchise even though they were the best bid. With west coast virgin took the government to court and won and got the franchise back. They then lost east coast and subsequently lost west coast. They now have no franchises at all.