ScotRail HST hit by tree

[MikeB]

A tree fell on the cab of 43129 in storm Gerrit today.  The damage looks bad, but the driver is OK.  This will add to calls after the Stonehaven derailment to withdraw the HSTs as they do not meet current safety standards. 

The reporting in the National may not be the best, but the pictures tell a story.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/24013988.storm-gerrit-tree-falls-scotrail-drivers-cab-en-route-glasgow/

Edited December 28, 2023 by MikeB

[Hesperus]

But is it less safe than a 158?  At least he's got somewhere to go.

[ess1uk]

Would the cabs be stronger made from carbon fibre?

[Steadfast]

8 hours ago, Hesperus said:

But is it less safe than a 158?  At least he's got somewhere to go.

Absolutely. There will be people jumping on this because it's an "old flimsy fibreglass HST" but I would hate to see the outcome of Sprinters in similar incidents to those that HSTs have suffered.

 

It also raises questions about management of the lineside, again.

 

Jo

Edited December 28, 2023 by Steadfast

[Enterprisingwestern]

6 minutes ago, Steadfast said:

Absolutely. There will be people jumping on this because it's an "old flimsy fibreglass HST" but I would hate to see the outcome of Sprinters in similar incidents to those that HSTs have suffered.

 

It also raises questions about NON management of the lineside, again.

 

Jo

 

FIFY.

 

Mike.

[eatus-maximus]

9 hours ago, MikeB said:

....This will add to calls after the Stonehaven derailment to withdraw the HSTs as they do not meet current safety standards....

 

My understanding is that most of the trains on the national network do not meet the current standards, so what do they want to replace them?

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, eatus-maximus said:

 

My understanding is that most of the trains on the national network do not meet the current standards, so what do they want to replace them?

 

Roads and buses... because they are really safe!

[Andrew Young]

9 hours ago, Hesperus said:

But is it less safe than a 158?  At least he's got somewhere to go.

Depends, no guarantee they’d be replaced with 158s. Now if the Meridians were cascaded after the introduction of IETs on the MML then you would get a cab which could better withstand tree strikes than the outdated HST. They’re proven against quarry loading conveyors! Voyagers with the same cab design (two titanium steel pillars built into the cab) has proven to protect the driver from large tree strikes with the impact absorbed elsewhere in the structure (220019 near Kenilworth a little while back being a case in point). 
 

Andrew

[APOLLO]

The HST fleet has travelled nearly a Billion miles (850 million according to Google).

 

Yes there have been a handful of serious incidents and loss of life.

 

Brit15

[cctransuk]

15 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

The HST fleet has travelled nearly a Billion miles (850 million according to Google).

 

Yes there have been a handful of serious incidents and loss of life.

 

Brit15

 

Quite - sh*t happens; it is astonishing that this level of damage can be sustained with the driver apparently being uninjured. No doubt it was a traumatic experience for him, and my sympathies are with him.

 

Nonetheless, no occupation in the world comes with a 100% safety guarantee - and trying to achieve the impossible can sometimes lead to that occupation ceasing to exist.

 

Constantly changing safety regulations will no doubt be welcomed by train builders, as viable stock is condemned - but the cost ultimately falls on the traveller, who may ultimately judge rail travel to be beyond their means.

 

(As happened years ago in my case, and apparently the majority of the population).

 

CJI.

 

 

[Peter Eaton]

Did a falling tree hit the train. Compared to a train hitting a  fallen tree, & you need to see the size of the tree to fully understand the incident. 

[Michael Hodgson]

We could achieve the objective of complete safety for drivers by introducing driverless trains.

Passengers would be safe if we dispensed with them too.

[adb968008]

58 minutes ago, Peter Eaton said:

Did a falling tree hit the train. Compared to a train hitting a  fallen tree, & you need to see the size of the tree to fully understand the incident. 

A far too sensible post for twitter to ask.

 

 

[TheQ]

Definitely a HST hitting a tree looking at the damage, I suspect seeing that tree, it was off throttle, hit brakes, dive for the floor.

[Railfreight1998]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-near-thetford

 

Not a tree, but this 170 (which the ScotRail HSTs partially replaced) was involved in a collision with a tractor. Pretty extensive damage but the cab side pillars remained intact. 

[APOLLO]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

We could achieve the objective of complete safety for drivers by introducing driverless trains.

Passengers would be safe if we dispensed with them too.

 

Sounds like Avanti trains !!!

 

Brit15

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, TheQ said:

Definitely a HST hitting a tree looking at the damage, I suspect seeing that tree, it was off throttle, hit brakes, dive for the floor.

 

And hopefully enough time to grab your kit bag with the spare undies.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Bucoops

[KeithMacdonald]

4 hours ago, eatus-maximus said:

 

My understanding is that most of the trains on the national network do not meet the current standards, so what do they want to replace them?

 

But what are the current standards? And whose job is it to enforce them? And if not why not?

[corneliuslundie]

And are they retrospective anyway? I think not.

Jonathan 

[david.hill64]

On 28/12/2023 at 13:40, KeithMacdonald said:

 

But what are the current standards? And whose job is it to enforce them? And if not why not?

Equipment always conforms to the standards in force at the time of design. Occasionally standards may change during the design process, in which case it is usual to allow the standards existing at the time of contract signature to prevail. Conformance with standards is checked by the relevant assessment body (NOBO, DEBO). The relevant body depends whether the applicable standards are TSI's and associated EN norms, or National Notified Technical Rules (where TSI's are not applicable). 

 

Sometimes where a new standard results in significant additional work to demonstrate compliance there may be a period of grace to allow compliance. An example is EN50128 where the 2011 revision caused significant problems for the signalling system manufacturers. Compliance to the 2001 version was allowed for many years after.

 

Occasionally a new regulation may be introduced which applies retrospectively. Central Door Locking on slam door stock is a good example. This only happens when it is assessed that continuing use of the existing equipment presents a significant safety risk that can be mitigated by measures which are assessed as reasonably practicable (ie the cost of implementation is not disproportionate to the benefit). Otherwise there is no requirement for equipment to be upgraded as new standards are introduced. If there were, you would for example have to resignal the entire system to use ETCS*

 

HSTs do not comply with current crashworthiness standards, but as demonstrated by most incidents have reasonably good protection. The driver of the HST which hit the tree was reported as being unharmed. The 60 year old design stood up well.

 

*Assuming that the UK hasn't yet repealed this part of the EU legislation that requires all new works and resignalling to be done using this system.