Getting younger people into the hobby

[trisonic]

A quick check of the timetable for the next hour suggests there are 12 trains per hour from Shenfield to Liverpool St - so about double your memory. 6 are fast (circa 25 mins) - 6 are slow (circa 45 mins)

 

Shenfield is on a line which has loco hauled passenger trains - there's a Norwich train every half hour which means if I spent an hour spotting there i'd expect to see four loco's without trying hard.

 

Shenfield is also on a line with plenty of freight traffic.

 

What you just said is exactly what the comment of Beast's was saying. Read your comment above and see if it makes you want to go to Shenfield to discover for yourself what trains pass. No? S

 

 

I've no way of (or any will to) make folk think things are interesting if they don't, but please do think about what you're saying and keep it at least accurate.

 

Wow, I'm amazed! No , really! Next time I'm in the area (I live in the 'States) I will definitely check it out - thank you.

 

I think we all agree on one thing - trying to ram an idea down childrens' throats or into the their heads is not the way to maintain their interest. Maybe some kind of "hands on" exhibit at shows would help?

 

Best, Pete.

[Guest jim s-w]

Just keep things open, available and prejudice free and most will make their own decision on whether it interests them or not, irrespective of age. Evangelising, lecturing, even well-meaning attempts at focussed promotion will only come across as a bit desperate and no-one will pay any attention. Just my opinion you understand

 

Exactly the point I was trying to make earlier Rod. Beast said that my view that the real railway is dull is an opinion which it is but for me its a fact. If someone else finds it dull no amount of timetable analasis is going to change that for them. Its dull or its not, black or white.

 

Yes there might be the same amount of trains or even more now but the railway is so effeciant that its less interesting. Pendo arrives - people get on and off, pendo heads back to where it came. Effeciant yes but compared to 87 and train arrives. 87 uncoupled, draws forward. Re-emerges on another track goes to the other end of the station, dissapeares again into the other tunnel. Reappears again, backs down onto train, coupling up, brake check, train departs. Which is more interesting?

 

I am just saying that a model railway, and a model railway show is not targeted at children so much even to the point that most of the good layouts there will not hold their interest. Imagine a perfectly modelled branch line with a pannier tank gently shunting vans. Might be fun to watch yes but compared to a layout with loads of bright coloured trains flying here and there, sparkly lights everywhere, faller road system with moving vehicles. The good old 'end is nign' bloke or some other cliched humour, some graffitied wagon in an attempt to break up the monotomy of modern block trains, perhaps a fire engine scene - all the gimmicks. Which one will entertain the kids?

 

Either of them will probably struggle against the lego railway anyway. More kids - great, nothing wrong with that in the slightest but the model railway hobby as it is now - in a public facing kind of way is just not targeted at them at all.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Andy C]

Hmmm I am fast becoming convinced that (see the thread on exhibition concessions) that we should do away with the childrens reduced rate as well now .

 

I do subscribe to Jim S W's view of it not being a childrens hobby. Plaything perhaps but no way a hobby, It was my plaything as a kid, it only became a hobby. when I started modelling at age 23. Interestingly enough, both my brothers had the same access to the train set but neither of them have taken it up in later years.

 

Exhibitors hat on here, and far from it for me to be controversial and throw a real hand grenade in this thread if i never saw another kid at a show I'd be a very happy bunny, you can guarantee that from at least every other show you have to repair damage from poking fingers or hands (or in the case of Brushford a kids shoe which landed on the layout after it been kicked off its feet). Now i dont wholly blame the kids here, a lot of it is lack of parental control. If I attepted to touch things that I shouldnt as a kid, my dad was always quick with the rebuke "Only Blackburn folk look with their hands" in a tone that brooked no negotiation on the subject. Its stuck with me - to this day i would never dream of touching a model unless invited to by the owner.

 

I know I will inevitably get the "well you shouldnt exhibit it then" type post in reply but to be frank the people I'm interested in influencing and inspiring to take the finescale baton up are not under 14 (and thats not an arbitary age - I have found kids around this age starting to get very genuinely interested in modelling), and I do like going to shows with layouts and thoroughly enjoy chatting to folk no matter how old about how you do this or that. I just regard kids as an occupational hazard and put up with the repairs which will inevitably have to be done.

[sweeny todd]

I think its a change of the times when i was younger i had a train set and stuck with the hobby kids nowadays have ps3's,xbox360 etc ive got 3 boys they all think trains are for nerds and think train shows are very boring with a lot of smelly people attending kids nowadays have to much technology at hand there is know interest in hobbies.

[coachmann]

I did my own thing away from the gaze of my friends, who considered model railways puffs stuff compared with manculine football. Even took my school girlfirends on train rides because I knew they would find it more exciting going out of town into the countryside than standing watching boys playing with a bag of wind!

 

I wonder if the people that want to attract youngsters into the hobby happen to be dependant on Hornby and Bachmann....Vested interests and all that. These two companies are extremely helpful but they shouldn't be the be-all and end-all of railway modelling. Railway modelling used to be about creating things.

 

My two lads were taken down to the beach every Saturday morning in the mid 1960s, ostensibly to watch the steam trains, but in fact to play soccer. If the stirring sight of steam did not turn kids on, gawd knows what todays 2-car Units do for kids. No one in my family has the remotest interest in railways. They'de rather work long hours and line other peoples pockets than learn the skills I possess and take over the business. I hope this puts things in some sort of perspective. I go along with the train of thought that kids will chose their own hobbies regardless.

[Glorious NSE]

Exactly the point I was trying to make earlier Rod. Beast said that my view that the real railway is dull is an opinion which it is but for me its a fact. If someone else finds it dull no amount of timetable analasis is going to change that for them. Its dull or its not, black or white.

 

Jim, no, it's still opinion and not fact.

 

It's your opinion.

 

It's the right answer in your own head.

 

It's even the right answer in plenty of people's heads, but that still doesn't make it fact - other than a fact that it's your opinion!

 

For example I think today's railway is fascinating as a whole (even though I don't spend whole days at Birmingham New St) - that's just as much my opinion as yours is, so by your standards then that must also be a "fact"

 

My point is that throwing opinion around as fact I think can be quite damaging, as Rod says, lets keep it "prejudice free".

 

As a generalisation people do believe what they are told and they use that kind of information to make their impressions of the world, they don't hear something and immediately rush out and try and verify it. Just look at the level of "accuracy" in the news media.

 

So the (personal opinion here) mass of supposed pro-railway people that can say nothing good about it gets very tedious. It's even more tedious (not aiming this at you Jim or Pete!) when you keep hearing from folk who don't spend any time with the real thing how awful it is.

 

Pretty sure I recall a thread on here referencing a letter to a magazine in 1923 with the writer basically complaining that it was all boring now as all the trains had LMS on the side. Plus ca change and all that.

 

My replies to Pete (and thanks for your reply Pete, Shenfield is a busy place still and I reckon worth at least a half hour of anyone's time) were intended to correct a couple of factual (not opinion) errors and not to try and "convert" anyone.

 

Timetable analasis wasn't the point of the excercise, six class 315s an hour to Liverpool St isn't really six times more variety than one, but it does keep things moving.

[Oakydoke]

Basically kids play with toy trains and adults model railways.

Trying to pitch 'model railways' to kids (and vica verse 'toy trains' to adults) is unlikely to work. So yep IMO, Jim is right; model railways is not a childrens hobby.

 

 

I'm not sure that today ensuring children have a train set is key to them coming to the hobby. A train set is a toy, plain and simple - it is just something with which they can play just like a Wii or Lego.

 

I can't see how a child playing with his toy trains can be anything other than just playing with toys. It certainly couldn't be described as railway modelling by any stretch of the imagination, just as a child in a peddle car wouldn't be considered to have taken up motorsport.

 

There's no reason why children can't take part in modelling, but surely there's a clear distinction between that and toy trains.

 

On the other hand railway modellers are just adults who regard playing with trains more seriously and sometimes try to kid themselves that they're not actually playing with toys.

[mswjr]

you see lots of children at thomas the tank events , that should hopefully see some take an interest in trains later on.

mswjr

[trisonic]

That's a thoughtful and thought-provoking answer, Martyn.

You're right in that we all bring something to the table (as a hobby) that's different.

 

I'm not sure that any "pat" response that I can come up with will get young people or children interested enough to make it a lifelong thing. In my case it is just one of many interests I have and sometimes one subject is more important than another - I just came off doing a difficult soundtrack recording and wanted to get as far away from music as possible for a spell - Railway, Railroads and Models in general are about as far away as I can get, thankfully. Whatever gets you through the night - is right.....

 

Best, Pete.

Written in response to "Glorious NSE"'s post #56

[grahame]

Hmmm I am fast becoming convinced that (see the thread on exhibition concessions) that we should do away with the childrens reduced rate as well now .

 

I do subscribe to Jim S W's view of it not being a childrens hobby. Plaything perhaps but no way a hobby, It was my plaything as a kid, it only became a hobby. when I started modelling at age 23. Interestingly enough, both my brothers had the same access to the train set but neither of them have taken it up in later years.

 

Exhibitors hat on here, and far from it for me to be controversial and throw a real hand grenade in this thread if i never saw another kid at a show I'd be a very happy bunny, you can guarantee that from at least every other show you have to repair damage from poking fingers or hands (or in the case of Brushford a kids shoe which landed on the layout after it been kicked off its feet). Now i dont wholly blame the kids here, a lot of it is lack of parental control. If I attepted to touch things that I shouldnt as a kid, my dad was always quick with the rebuke "Only Blackburn folk look with their hands" in a tone that brooked no negotiation on the subject. Its stuck with me - to this day i would never dream of touching a model unless invited to by the owner.

 

I know I will inevitably get the "well you shouldnt exhibit it then" type post in reply but to be frank the people I'm interested in influencing and inspiring to take the finescale baton up are not under 14 (and thats not an arbitary age - I have found kids around this age starting to get very genuinely interested in modelling), and I do like going to shows with layouts and thoroughly enjoy chatting to folk no matter how old about how you do this or that. I just regard kids as an occupational hazard and put up with the repairs which will inevitably have to be done.

 

 

I found myself nodding with complete agreement as I read this post . Perhaps I'm becoming a miserable old git but it seems so true. So back to some cool adult modelling B).

 

G.

[Ozexpatriate]

Pretty sure I recall a thread on here referencing a letter to a magazine in 1923 with the writer basically complaining that it was all boring now as all the trains had LMS on the side. Plus ca change and all that.

This is a delightful reference. (I'm not sure what to search for to find it, but I'd love to see the original.) It states the case for pre-grouping modeling rather well!

 

I'm not sure what problem this perennial thread is attempting to expose.

 

Plenty of children still receive train sets for birthday and Christmas. (A good chunk of the RTR manufacturers' business still comes from these product lines.) Most of these children won't go on to become die-hard railway modellers (whatever that means exactly).

 

Some of them will. As they reach the point in their lives when they can afford a hobby (firstly being permitted time to themselves, secondarily disposable income) they will bemoan the fact that there are so few children entering the hobby.

 

I think perhaps it was ever so.

[2ManySpams]

ive got 3 boys .... and think train shows are very boring with a lot of smelly people attending

 

How on earth could they get that impression? I'd have thought that being constantly bashed in the face by rucksacks and run over by errant wheelchairs would have given them enough to worry about without having time to smell

[grahame]

I'm not sure you can make a clear distinction there. Most of us know of adults who play with toy trains (James May for starters), and many of us 'adult modellers' did of course start out playing with toy trains.

 

There may be a few adults who still play trains (the odd exception proves the rule ) but in my experience of exhibiting layouts at shows there are no kids (under 12) who really do modelling. IMO they certainly don't appear to appreciate the modelling effort and really just want to see the trains thrashed/raced around and crash. Many are also very prone, as Andy mentioned, to touching and damaging your models. Basically they want to grab and play with the trains. It's understandable to a large extent and unfortunatelly all to often parents show little or no control of them. Consequently I much perfer to attend/display at the enthusiast/specialist quality model show rather than the family toy train type - but that's just my preference and opinion.

 

G.

[PaulRhB]

I think there are many things that effect the perceptions of full size railways being less popular. Kids are less likely now to be allowed out to play in a dangerous location by parents scared of the medias ridiculous hype about the dangers of society in general, a minority of those that do get out and have free reign seem to be out as their parents don't care and cause trouble making station staff suspicious and less welcoming. Ticket barriers and over enthusiastic revenue protection are another issue along with the old terrorism hype chesnut that causes grief for photographers.

If you want to enthuse kids then allow them to run a layout under supervision, learn how to put things on and why crashes happen. They'll learn just the same as they do to avoid being shot or eaten in their video games. Fun for kids is often being allowed to do what adults do and let them do a bit of their own thing too. A friends now 12yr old lad has been helping on our layouts since he was four and we only have to watch him to stop him from bringing the whole lot to a standstill by shunting too much.

Friends kids who aren't into trains love playing with them when they come round just don't expect that they will become obsessed with it now. It may be in their 30's that they look for a hobby to do at home and remember the fun they had with it as a kid.

I've seen kids entranced by beautiful model railways because there was something that caught their attention initially, Rowlands Castle and it's military equipment, Coppell and seeing a 10ish yr old shouting with glee when the APT ran, locos that whistle or light up. All these things can be the hook and Thomas and New Street are just as likely to fascinate different kids.

I think the hobby has never been more healthy and while many will succumb to the medias slightly pathetic stereotype of model trains there will be many more who say I never realised what was possible and enjoy the experience if only briefly.

 

As to kids touching the layout we carry a set of barriers in the van if we aren't sure that they will be provided. Less than £100 for a set of posts and chains to protect thousands of pounds of layout is a good investment to me. I haven't used them at specialist shows as there tend to be less kids but it is something you should take into account if you want to exhibit a layout. Kids love to get hands on and that's evidenced in many museums with interactive sections but also displays in cabinets and chained off areas.

[James]

IMO they certainly don't appear to appreciate the modelling effort and really just want to see the trains thrashed/raced around and crash.

 

I have to say my dad would have taken huge exception to that remark when I was young.

 

He tells me that at one York Show when I was about six or seven an operator on a (scottish, I think) layout pointed out animals on the layout and I came back with a question about the fiddle yard! After talking the operator was bring different locos out of the fiddleyard for me to see while he waited for the other operators to send him trains!

 

Perhaps because of my dad's interests I'm an exception, but I certainly appreciated the modelling effort and greatly respected other people's models.

[coachmann]

It has been said for many many years that railways are in the blood. I firmly believe this is the only answer. When we were young my cousins and I were all told stories of Grandad G. working for Beyer Peacock and that the Great Central and the LNER were 'the' railways. We were all held up high by our uncles so we could watch trains passing on the Woodhead route. So why was it I was the only one of the cousins to eat, drink and sleep railways?

['CHARD]

From the horse's mouth, when asked the open question, my 10 y/o son thought about it awhile and then commented:

'You do have to paint the trains and little figures, don't you? Well, I'd think about moving onto that from my models (Games Workshop), yes.'

 

As others have said, different features and aspects of the hobby will bring in new blood. And with maturity, the enjoyment gained from these facets will no doubt morph too. I doubt my boy will be playing computer games when he's 20, and likewise girls don't feature in his thoughts right now.

Over a lifetime hobbies and interests fulfil different roles and needs, and whatever seeds an interest will vary from person to person, and make an impact at different stages of their life.

 

My dad always said 'don't close your mind to things without giving them a fair hearing,' and where new entrants to the hobby are concerned, of any age or background, it probably just means that where possible, barriers to entry (the more extreme nerdy, geeky off-putting traits) should be played down by those who seek to be its ambassadors.

[trisonic]

It has been said for many many years that railways are in the blood. I firmly believe this is the only answer. When we were young my cousins and I were all told stories of Grandad G. working for Beyer Peacock and that the Great Central and the LNER were 'the' railways. We were all held up high by our uncles so we could watch trains passing on the Woodhead route. So why was it I was the only one of the cousins to eat, drink and sleep railways?

 

Hey, how are you feeling now? On the mend?

I only just put 2+2 together!

 

Best wishes, Pete.

[PaulRhB]

There may be a few adults who still play trains (the odd exception proves the rule ) but in my experience of exhibiting layouts at shows there are no kids (under 12) who really do modelling.

I still play trains sitting back in my fathers and friends gardens and watching them trundle around, I also have been known to see just how fast they will go out of curiosity. Then I get told off for being pedantic about certain details on my model railways. I know of others similarly afflicted too!

 

As to kids modelling have you seen what they can do with Lego? It may not be considered suitable for a model railway show but it's still modelling. Also ask an 8 yr old to press DAS clay into rock moulds and they will happily do it for hours. Glue an area and they will be desperate to shake on the flock. I call that modelling but they may not have all the skills yet as they are still learning. Look at how many 20ish people are creating stunning layouts and tell me they developed that without learning from an early age, it takes experience and money to make an exhibitable layout that most pre teens and teenagers don't have . . . . yet!

[Guest jim s-w]

Hi Martin

 

I am afraid you still miss my point. The point is that it IS a fact for each person and that will indeed be different. If I think the current scene is dull no amount of info you offer up to me will change that FACT that I think it dull.

 

Think about what you are saying and how it looks. I think the current scene is dull and you come along and say well actually there are more trains now than there were then and DMU's are just as interesting as loco hauled stuff. Offer up some evidence for it great but THAT is exactly the nerdy kind of response that will make the average kid run straight back to their play station.

 

What are you hoping my response will be - Oh Martin has facts so obviously I am wrong and its all suddenly VERY interesting? Of course not. You said yourself "when you keep hearing from folk who don't spend any time with the real thing how awful it is."

 

My question which I asked earlier and has still not been answered is, why do people think that?

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Barry Ten]

 

I know I will inevitably get the "well you shouldnt exhibit it then" type post in reply but to be frank the people I'm interested in influencing and inspiring to take the finescale baton up are not under 14 (and thats not an arbitary age - I have found kids around this age starting to get very genuinely interested in modelling), and I do like going to shows with layouts and thoroughly enjoy chatting to folk no matter how old about how you do this or that. I just regard kids as an occupational hazard and put up with the repairs which will inevitably have to be done.

 

That 14 thing is very interesting because it sort of marks the time when I went from just wanting the latest shiny thing in the Hornby catalog, to actually beginning to try to improve things, albeit in a hamfisted way, which I suppose is the difference between playing trains and being a modeller - aspiration rather than actual results.

 

As a 44 year old I'm still dealing with some of the detailing/weathering/repainting disasters I inflicted on models back in 1980. But I actually find that enormously satisfying as there's a sense of continuity between then and now.

[Sir Hadyn]

I would also ask the definition of "younger". It doesn't just mean kids under 14. The hardest audience to attract at the NRM is the 20-30somethings. The FNRM are trying to look at attracting "younger" blood, and they don't just mean children who like engines with faces. There's a lot to be said for allowing the process of osmosis to happen - no one pushed me into railways and steam, it just happened. I certainly wouldn't preach to anyone, but a lady asked at work last week what the appeal of a steam loco was. Fortunately the J72 was in steam, so I stood her on the footplate, let her blow the whistle and then under guidance she drove the loco down the track. She said at the end "I understand now". She is a Science Museum Trustee... It is the interactive have a go element that I think is a help and full marks to those shows that have modelling tables for youngsters to make something and take it home. The pride is immense, and just maybe it might stick.

 

My City of Truro spent an afternoon last month running round a layout on a friend's conservatory floor for his son. No damage done, one very happy little boy. Who knows where that may lead?

 

Cheers

Anthony

[PaulRhB]

My question which I asked earlier and has still not been answered is, why do people think that?

Ah the answer to life the universe and everything, when you give the definitive answer it still makes no logical sense!

We are all different, fascinated by different things, colour, mechanisms etc so if we could give a definitive answer it would probably be by the University of Exeter and be " GWR BLT" which would would make exhibitions and magazines fascinating in their variety.

People will continue to complain about too many GWR, Swiss, diesel layouts or articles because it doesn't fit their particular interest whilst failing to appreciate that if it was all the same all the time it would be so boring.

Statistics are only ever a small section of opinion but they seem to be relied on to give accuracy rather than trends.

[beast66606]

My question which I asked earlier and has still not been answered is, why do people think that?

 

No one thinks it Jim - surely its fact

 

The fact it that in actual fact its a fact that I think enough facts have been given, factually, to allow each to form their own factual opinion as to whether these factual statements constitute fact or merely opinion - and thats a fact

[Guest jim s-w]

 

As a generalisation people do believe what they are told and they use that kind of information to make their impressions of the world, they don't hear something and immediately rush out and try and verify it. Just look at the level of "accuracy" in the news media.

 

 

To me I find that completely alien and I actually struggle to get my head around it. I suspect a lot of modellers do too.

 

I know a guy at work who, nice as a person he is, is quite happy to accept that he doesnt know how to do something and thats that. He makes no attempt to find out HOW to do it or to better himself he is quite happy to sit there and kinda think - I am too stupid to do that - Nevermind I'll have to wait to someone cleverer comes along to do it for me. I find this kind of person increadibly frustrating to deal with.

 

I don't think modellers are like that at all.

 

Thinking about it - when I was a kid I had a train set. I had Scalextrix, Lego and Zoids (remember them - robot dinosaurs that came as kits?) So I was happy to sit there assembling something and less happy to just open the box and play with it. Probably why I get no enjoyment out of playing trains now, the hobby is about making stuff for me.

 

Leads to 2 questions

 

1 - Did I like toys like that because they were what I wanted - some kind of natural tendancy or did those toys make me the way I am now?

 

and

 

2 - In the general toy market, is there anything like that (I know lego is still arround) now? Are our kids not given anything that challenges them in that way anymore?

 

Cheers

 

Jim