Could an old DC power controller damage a modern loco?

[markwilson]

A few weeks ago, I was running one of my O Gauge Dapol Class 121 DMU "bubble cars" around the club test track and, after running well for a while (I think about 20 minutes), it suddenly "clunked", spun its wheels lots, and became a very poor runner, with a funny smell. I suspected a gear issue but as it was only a few months old, I contacted the retailer to ask about a warranty repair. They swapped it out for another model for me.

 

I started to run in the new model on the same track, and after a while, I began to see similar issues. This time, I turned it off quickly, and haven't run it on the club track again - it seems to be OK on a short length of DC track I have at home (phew!).

 

I started to think about something I'd seen in the manual for another of my locos - the Ellis Clark Wickham Trolley says:

 

Quote

"This model is fitted with a high quality coreless motor, which may make more noise than normal on older low-frequency pulse width modulation controllers (or PWM for short). It is recommended that it is run on newer control systems, or on systems where PWM can be switched off or the motor may suffer from damage."

 

Because of that warning, I've never run the Wickham on the club track.

I don't know what sort of motor the Dapol unit has (coreless, or otherwise) but could this be the problem I was seeing on the Dapol unit? Might the elderly DC controller on the club test track actually be damaging my locos?

Edited January 28 by markwilson
Added clarity about the scale (O gauge) and nature of the question (relating to the Dapol unit - coreless may not be relevant)

[melmerby]

If the controller gives out pure DC there should be no problems with a coreless motor.

If it has any form of low frequency control e.g. Back EMF or half wave operation it should not be used with coreless motors.

They will run hot and can be easily damaged by doing so.

[Ben Alder]

What make is the club controller?

[markwilson]

22 hours ago, Ben Alder said:

What make is the club controller?

I'll need to check on Thursday night Ben. It looks like it might be older than I am though. And I'm nearly 52...

[Dungrange]

29 minutes ago, markwilson said:

I'll need to check on Thursday night Ben. It looks like it might be older than I am though. And I'm nearly 52...

So it's suitable for running 52 year old locomotives.

[MartinRS]

I can certainly remember Lima N gauge locos having problems with H&M Duettes set to half wave way back in the 1970s. On the H&M assessment page one contributor says he was warned not to use H&M Duettes with Dapol products by the user DapolDave. I think DapolDave might have some connection with Dapol. I don't know if he still posts here. Older (resistance mat) controllers were all pretty much the same in their design.

[Pete the Elaner]

42 minutes ago, markwilson said:

I'll need to check on Thursday night Ben. It looks like it might be older than I am though. And I'm nearly 52...

 

I assume you mean the club in Olney? I have just got back from a darts match in the Carlton Club. 😁

I know somebody who may know straight away what controller you have been using.

[markwilson]

1 minute ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I assume you mean the club in Olney? I have just got back from a darts match in the Carlton Club. 😁

I know somebody who may know straight away what controller you have been using.

 

Haha. Small world Pete, and I do indeed mean the Olney club controller!

[melmerby]

4 minutes ago, MartinRS said:

DapolDave might have some connection with Dapol

IIRC he did have a connection with Dapol, then he left and set up DJ Models, which went belly up.

[Pete the Elaner]

14 hours ago, markwilson said:

 

Haha. Small world Pete, and I do indeed mean the Olney club controller!

 

It sounds like it is a Gaugemaster but my friend was not sure.

They have 3 ranges: Those with cream coloured faces are their standard range, which give a fairly smooth output & should be ok for coreless or modern motors.

Their black faced range has feedback. These are better for older motors & I believe also give a constant speed up gradients. These can damage coreless or modern motors.

They make a red faced range too. I am not sure what these are.

[mossdp]

If this is an OO class 121, then the symptoms described of spinning wheels if at one end are consistent with the tiny plastic ends of the drive shafts loosening on the metal drive shaft. It is an extremely common problem. It affects many of these models.

[SteveM666]

29 minutes ago, mossdp said:

If this is an OO class 121, then the symptoms described of spinning wheels if at one end are consistent with the tiny plastic ends of the drive shafts loosening on the metal drive shaft. It is an extremely common problem. It affects many of these models.

True. I’ve just repaired the same fault on both ends of a 122.

[irishmail]

If that is the problem then Jenny Kirk done a usefull Youtube video on repariing this,  Quite easy, but fidlly to do as I had to reapair my friends one.

 

[markwilson]

On 23/01/2024 at 13:43, Pete the Elaner said:

 

It sounds like it is a Gaugemaster but my friend was not sure.

They have 3 ranges: Those with cream coloured faces are their standard range, which give a fairly smooth output & should be ok for coreless or modern motors.

Their black faced range has feedback. These are better for older motors & I believe also give a constant speed up gradients. These can damage coreless or modern motors.

They make a red faced range too. I am not sure what these are.

Thanks Pete. It’s not a Gaugemaster (I’ll check what it is tomorrow). I have one of the cream ones at home and that’s what I use for DC testing on a spare piece of track.

[markwilson]

On 23/01/2024 at 18:01, mossdp said:

If this is an OO class 121, then the symptoms described of spinning wheels if at one end are consistent with the tiny plastic ends of the drive shafts loosening on the metal drive shaft. It is an extremely common problem. It affects many of these models.

Thanks @mossdp and @SteveM666 - I should have specified in my original post it’s O Gauge. Given that the second model was new and that when I stopped running it and took it home it then ran normally again, I’d ruled out that problem. I will continue to monitor though. (Thanks also for the video @irishmail)

[markwilson]

On 22/01/2024 at 00:04, Ben Alder said:

What make is the club controller?

It’s a Lone Star and now you can see why I said it’s pretty old! 

I’ve disconnected it and put my old Gaugemaster D on (technically not an O gauge controller, but these Dapol units don’t pull as much current as my Heljan stock). Seemed to be running fine, but still a slight whiff from the DMU after 10 minutes running in each direction, so I may just need to accept these models are not made to run continuously.

 

My layout is end to end, so that shouldn’t be a challenge…

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, markwilson said:

It’s a Lone Star and now you can see why I said it’s pretty old! 

I’ve disconnected it and put my old Gaugemaster D on (technically not an O gauge controller, but these Dapol units don’t pull as much current as my Heljan stock). Seemed to be running fine, but still a slight whiff from the DMU after 10 minutes running in each direction, so I may just need to accept these models are not made to run continuously.

 

My layout is end to end, so that shouldn’t be a challenge…

A perfect candidate for this thread!

 

"I will spend £150 - £250 on a loco but nothing on a controller" in M,M & M.

[Ben Alder]

4 hours ago, markwilson said:

It’s a Lone Star and now you can see why I said it’s pretty old! 

I’ve disconnected it and put my old Gaugemaster D on (technically not an O gauge controller, but these Dapol units don’t pull as much current as my Heljan stock). Seemed to be running fine, but still a slight whiff from the DMU after 10 minutes running in each direction, so I may just need to accept these models are not made to run continuously.

 

My layout is end to end, so that shouldn’t be a challenge…

TBH, I know nothing about this type of controller, but Lone Star is something from the past. I am unashamedly retro with DC, using H&M 30000 and Walkabouts as my go to's along with an 80's Orbit and a Morley for the few coreless locos I have, but surely a club can stretch to a more modern controller. Gaugemaster provide a good selection of options, alongside others.

[markwilson]

On 26/01/2024 at 00:19, kevinlms said:

A perfect candidate for this thread!

 

"I will spend £150 - £250 on a loco but nothing on a controller" in M,M & M.

That's a fair point but my initial (logical) perception was that physics doesn't change and 12V DC is still 12V DC. It's only from experimenting and experiences like the one I posted about that we learn it's not that simple!

[paul 27]

Lone Star looks like a dinosaur from  the early sixties as the reference

to  Gaugemaster the so called black ones are  hand held and the red

cased ones are both DC feedback not suitable for coreless motors

i have both and have been running both Bachmann and Hornby

 including there latest models for years with no problems

of over heating motors.

 

 

[PeterStiles]

On 27/01/2024 at 21:26, markwilson said:

and 12V DC is still 12V DC.

It's been shown that many of if the older designs of controllers put out a Spike when starting that can dramatically go over 12v, potentially this was on purpose to help rough motors get going in the first place. 

 I'll join the others in recommending the alternative thread listed above and repeat the reminder that many Resistance Mat controllers of that age used asbestos - so don't poke around inside a 50 year old controller...

 

 

Edited January 29 by PeterStiles
ytpos

[Southernman46]

Finally ditched my (very 60 y.o.) old H&M Powermaster a couple of months ago on the basis that it may try to kill me at some point in the future (kept the box though - yes I still had the box 🙄). Surviving on a Duette now - I don't understand DCC nor can I afford the number of decoders needed 😌

[Nigelcliffe]

10 minutes ago, Southernman46 said:

Finally ditched my (very 60 y.o.) old H&M Powermaster a couple of months ago on the basis that it may try to kill me at some point in the future (kept the box though - yes I still had the box 🙄). Surviving on a Duette now - I don't understand DCC nor can I afford the number of decoders needed 😌

 

Arguably from a safety point of view you may have ditched the wrong one....   

The Morley Vector twin, at under £100, might make a very good replacement for the Duette (Morley has centre-off detents, just like the Duette, but also chucks in some remote handsets for free).   Or there's a Gaugemaster Twin with separate direction switches at closer to £140.     

 

 

[andyman7]

As others have noted, there is a separate thread on the issue of persisting with old controllers. The conversations falls into two parts:

 

1) the risk of harm to the user from using very old kit where the insulation may have broken down and/or other parts used in construction may have deteriorated so as to pose a risk to health. To summarise this debate, if the users' electrical knowledge extends to just plugging it in, it's time to stop. Those with electrical knowledge and the confidence to repair/rewind/renew/replace components are a different matter, but no-one should be using a controller of great age just because they've never got round to replacing it.
 

2) the risk of harm to mechanisms. As the OP says, for many years the maxim that 12v DC was 12v DC was 'good enough' because there were usually no components between the pickups and what was normally  a hardy motor that was capable of taking a pretty wide range of voltages, including spikes. Even then, things such as 'half wave rectification' could cause overheating if used too much. This pretty much changed from the early 2000s when RTR locos began to use circuit boards to manage lighting and motor current and 'can' motors became the norm - having taken the top off a Bachmann loco circa 2003 recently it's astounding how simple the early circuit boards were, but they and their associated components have quickly grown in complexity and are allied to mechanisms that are much more sensitive - that is what gives us fine slow speed running and smooth drive characteristics but they do want an equally smooth delivery of current from an electronic controller without PWM.   

Edited January 28 by andyman7

[Hroth]

I'd recommend the Morley Vector Zero Three which is a bargain at £94 including delivery.  Its a perfect plug'n'play replacement for anyone still running an old Duette. 

 

Currently Morley have a few "bargain" Grade A Morley Vortrak Zero Ten - Crawler controllers with free Postage for £143.95.  A bit more expensive as it's a 4 track controller!

 

http://morleycontrollers.com/default.asp

 

No connection, just a satisfied customer!