5MT 73082 Camelot 107mph Andover run help

[Hillside Junction]

Hi.

 

I'm trying to find information on the rolling stock that was being pulled by Standard 5, 73082 Camelot, from Salisbury to Basingstoke, on the run where she is said to have reached 107mph through Andover late at night on Christmas Eve 1964. I am looking to hopefully recreate the formation as closely as possible in OO Gauge

 

All I know so far is it was a "Parcels" load, with 5 units consisting of a mix of BG's & GUV's (Bogie, not 4 wheel GUV's)

 

Any information on numbers, liveries, or anything useful would be gratefully appreciated

 

Thanks

[Wickham Green too]

Late at night on Christmas Eve ? ............. nobody in their right mind would've been up and about recording details then - and Santa was busy with other things !

[Marshall5]

I seriously doubt that a Standard 5 was capable of doing much over 90 mph.  I wonder if this is one of 'those' stories which gets passed around after a pint or two.

Ray.

[PhilH]

1 hour ago, Marshall5 said:

I seriously doubt that a Standard 5 was capable of doing much over 90 mph.  I wonder if this is one of 'those' stories which gets passed around after a pint or two.

Ray.

This. For a long time the motive power boss on the MHR when I was there was Bob Deeth who was a driver at the end of steam and featured in some of the fast runs noted at that time. Although the 5s were used turn and turn about on a lot of trips with Bulleid’s finest according to him they were only good for 80-85 mph. I can’t remember which way round it was but it was either the boiler/ steam ways not getting enough steam to the cylinders or the exhaust ways not getting rid of spent steam quickly enough. Either way it had the effect of throttling the things back.

Edited February 6 by PhilH

[Michael Hodgson]

13 hours ago, Hillside Junction said:

Hi.

 

I'm trying to find information on the rolling stock that was being pulled by Standard 5, 73082 Camelot, from Salisbury to Basingstoke, on the run where she is said to have reached 107mph through Andover late at night on Christmas Eve 1964. I

 

 

This sounds like a story put about by a crew who had had too much Xmas Spirirt.

[Southernman46]

You certainly wouldn't want to be doing 107 mph through Andover on the Up these days .................. 😬

[The Johnster]

Apart from the ‘pint or two’ exaggeration aspect, why would anything still be running late at night on xmas eve; the railway was pretty much all put to bed for the holidays by about 8 o’clock even in those days, and a parcels service is particularly unlikely to have been out and about.  Milk trains ran even on xmas day at one time but nothing else, and even that might have stopped by ‘64.

[LMS2968]

12 minutes ago, Southernman46 said:

You certainly wouldn't want to be doing 107 mph through Andover on the Up these days .................. 😬

You certainly wouldn't want to be doing 107 mph on a Standard Five anywhere. They were hardly the best riding of engines, even when compared with the Stanier version, which could be lively, to say the least.

[Southernman46]

Yes - the same was true for 73's in my era - had some very scary FAST light engine moves late at night - Sheerness to Gillingham in b*gger all 😲 - Driver having tipped the Rainham signalman to have the LX gates down ready.

[Right Away]

This topic might lend itself to establishing, out of interest, in tabulated form, the maximum authenticated speeds attained by each steam locomotive class, where possible, during their everyday service on Britain’s railways. 

Any takers?

[mac1960]

My Grandad had a soft spot for std 5, but he was operating over the Pennines where creature comforts were more appreciated. However before transfer he was on ECML and said A1 Peppercorns were his favourite, he didn’t like A4 at all, and worked on them pre war when they were in good shape. His comment like “Race Horses light and flirty” . A1 “dug in “ his fav Kestral and Kiitywake I vaguely remember, he died 1984. On Jubliee  which he worked on later “ poor on banks but good on the flat” . So runs to North Wales from West Yorkshire a rough ride on the hills, but good West of Warrington. His S&C knowledge was limited to being pushed onto it occasionally but appreciated what the crews had to do up there, especially in winter as he recounted to me once. Unfortunately I was by then interested in other things and perhaps didn’t spend as much time listening to him as I would know. Sadly my error which I fortunately I made sure I did not repeat with my own parents.

 

Cheers

Mac

[RFS]

On 05/02/2024 at 22:10, Hillside Junction said:

I'm trying to find information on the rolling stock that was being pulled by Standard 5, 73082 Camelot, from Salisbury to Basingstoke, on the run where she is said to have reached 107mph through Andover late at night on Christmas Eve 1964. I am looking to hopefully recreate the formation as closely as possible in OO Gauge.

 

And if you're thinking of recreating it with Bachmann's 73082, then you can forget all about 107 mph. Mine will barely do 60 mph due to the very low gearing!

Edited February 7 by RFS

[pH]

On 06/02/2024 at 03:55, The Johnster said:

Apart from the ‘pint or two’ exaggeration aspect, why would anything still be running late at night on xmas eve; the railway was pretty much all put to bed for the holidays by about 8 o’clock even in those days, and a parcels service is particularly unlikely to have been out and about.  Milk trains ran even on xmas day at one time but nothing else, and even that might have stopped by ‘64.

That did not apply to Scotland. There was definitely a service run on Christmas Day in the mid-1960s. I’ve seen statements that there was, at least, a local Christmas Day service around Glasgow until 1974.

 

About Standard 5s - they could certainly do 85. I had a trip behind one of Polmadie’s allocation, just out from its final works visit in summer 1965. (All times and distances rounded off) - it managed Paisley Gilmour Street to Port Glasgow (13 miles) in 13 minutes start-to-stop, taking 6 minutes out of the schedule. Rough speeds were 85 plus before Bishopton, reduced to about 80 through the tunnels, then back up to around 85 again between Langbank and Woodhall. 
 

(Edit to explain - there had been delays on the Joint Line between Glasgow Central and Paisley, so the departure from Gilmour Street was 6 minutes late, and the arrival in Port Glasgow was on time.)

Edited February 7 by pH

[Michael Hodgson]

14 minutes ago, pH said:

That did not apply to Scotland. There was definitely a service run on Christmas Day in the mid-1960s. I’ve seen statements that there was, at least, a local Christmas Day service around Glasgow until 1974.

 

 

In the 60s the Scots still pretty much saw Xmas as an English holiday, I don't think you got Boxing Day off, all the real celebrations were Hogmanay.  In fact they still are and you now get an extra Bank Holiday to recover from your hangovers!

[pH]

16 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

… you now get an extra Bank Holiday to recover from your hangovers!

It is many, many years since I last had a hangover in Scotland!

[Matt37268]

4 hours ago, Right Away said:

This topic might lend itself to establishing, out of interest, in tabulated form, the maximum authenticated speeds attained by each steam locomotive class, where possible, during their everyday service on Britain’s railways. 

Any takers?

It’s interesting, but as someone on another forum said about the various mogul classes, trying to find out about their various performances was rather difficult as they didn’t have their performances recorded compared to the big, glamorous Pacific’s. 
I can’t imagine there’s many performance logs of say 45xx tanks on say the Old Hill to Dudley shuttle? 
Would you also be asking about freight workings/locomotives too? 

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, RFS said:

And if you're thinking of recreating it with Bachmann's 73082, then you can forget all about 107 mph. Mine will barely do 60 mph due to the very low gearing!

If you really wanted to you could probably achieve 107 if you give it enough volts ............................. you might get a realistic smoke trail too ( and a strong smell of ozone ).

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Matt37268 said:

It’s interesting, but as someone on another forum said about the various mogul classes, trying to find out about their various performances was rather difficult as they didn’t have their performances recorded compared to the big, glamorous Pacific’s. 
I can’t imagine there’s many performance logs of say 45xx tanks on say the Old Hill to Dudley shuttle? 
Would you also be asking about freight workings/locomotives too? 

No, I don't recall the old Railway Magazine carrying too many OSNocklogs of the Old Hill to Dudley Shuttle

[Right Away]

 

9 hours ago, RFS said:

And if you're thinking of recreating it with Bachmann's 73082, then you can forget all about 107 mph. Mine will barely do 60 mph due to the very low gearing!

 

Purely on a personal note, having a terminus to fiddle yard (effectively end to end) layout representing a much “condensed” yet operable, imaginative mile or so of line in 00, the priority is for trains to move away smoothly and very slowly from rest and to come to a very gentle stop in a similar fashion.

Trains never attain high speeds and are restrained by decoder configuration, the emphasis being towards lower speed working.

 

Would I run fast trains at authentic speeds if space permitted?

You bet! 

 

[Oldddudders]

10 hours ago, pH said:

That did not apply to Scotland. There was definitely a service run on Christmas Day in the mid-1960s. I’ve seen statements that there was, at least, a local Christmas Day service around Glasgow until 1974.

In England the change came circa 1971, I think. Christmas Day 1968 certainly had a service, as Redhill Control, where I worked, was open all day, and although I was booked off, a mate and I went over to 'cab' Britannia, which had been parked outside for safe keeping. By 1972, certainly, no service, amidst great alarm from the West End theatreland. I took duty with one other at 23.00 Boxing night. The M23 link-bridge to Gatwick Airport was being put in over the break, and one of the chiefs rang up to find how it was going. With no signalboxes open until the next morning, who was I supposed to ask? Three Bridges Electrical Control had heard nothing. It all ended well. 

[guzzler17]

13 hours ago, Right Away said:

This topic might lend itself to establishing, out of interest, in tabulated form, the maximum authenticated speeds attained by each steam locomotive class, where possible, during their everyday service on Britain’s railways. 

Any takers?

 

6 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

No, I don't recall the old Railway Magazine carrying too many OSNocklogs of the Old Hill to Dudley Shuttle

 

The Railway Performance Society might hold data for both of the above.

 

 

[45568]

For interest, details of the 107mph run are in an article in the August-September 1990 edition of Steam Days, narrated by a friend and fellow West Australian who was firing on that Xmas Eve! I had forwarded this thread to him.

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[guzzler17]

Looking through my performance logs the fastest speed I recorded on a load 5 eastbound non-stopper was 94mph at Red Post Junction (1 mile 25 chains west of Andover).

 

For the record it was a diverted Weymouth to Waterloo service in 1988.  The estimated train weight excluding the loco was 205 tons.

 

Would like to see the Steam Days article.

[Mallard60022]

73082 had a Speedo. I suspect that may have been over excited?

Phil

[hexagon789]

5 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

73082 had a Speedo. I suspect that may have been over excited?

Phil

If it was a standard BR Smiths one, they only went up to 100 as well ;)