Peterborough North

[great northern]

Ah, a G12 Summit.......

 

Hope we do better than G20 summits usually manage to do. Whoops! Politics!

[great northern]

It was great to welcome Andy Y on Wednesday, and to be given a hands on tuition session with the camera. He went to a lot of trouble to set it up for me to get good results with my light problems, for which I am very grateful. I was also pleased in a way to discover that a fault with the camera that I had put down to my incompetence is in fact...... a fault in the camera. Obviously I have mixed feelings about that, and it will have to go back to the shop to be put right. Not today though, as it is precipitating rather heavily, and Nottingham' s authorities have ensured that I can't park close enough to avoid getting soaked.

 

Anyway, back to more pleasant matters. Yesterday saw the arrival of this beauty.

 

 

This is the prototype of Coachmann's latest venture, and if he gets enough support will be the start of a range of Thompson coaches. He very kindly offered me first refusal, and there was no way I was going to refuse. It will now get just a subtle bit of weathering, and go straight into service. I'm hoping it will be the first of several.

 

For all you trainspotters of days gone by, how about this? Standing at the end of Platform 3, nothing good has come through all day, next on the Up is the 1230 Doncaster- KX, which will produce Ladas or WP Allen for the umpteenth time.

 

 

Or will it..... Surely it couldn't be?

 

 

Oh wow! It is! Never happened to me, but Blue Peter was ex works August 1958, and for some reason stayed down South for three weeks, working Up to London quite regularly. Doncaster have borrowed it again today.

 

I'll post some of the photos Andy took a bit later, as I've forgotten to resize them.

[jwealleans]

That coach is rather tasty, Gilbert, as you'd expect from those hands.

 

Funny how Thompson's pacifics are criticised but you don't often hear people say how good his coaches looked, especially in that livery. I rather like them.

[great northern]

That coach is rather tasty, Gilbert, as you'd expect from those hands.

 

Funny how Thompson's pacifics are criticised but you don't often hear people say how good his coaches looked, especially in that livery. I rather like them.

 

I was thinking along the same lines the other day Jonathan, after reading Larry's comments about the double standards applied when watching Pacifics slip. I can only assume that all the anti Thompson vitriol stems from the rebuilding of Great Northern, and the alleged malice involved in that decision. I agree there's nothing wrong with his coaches, in fact I prefer his non corridor stock to Gresleys. He designed some good locos too- I haven't seen many people criticise the B1's, save for their rough riding when run down, and they were by no means the only class to which that applied.

 

I guess the rebuilding of the P2's ruffled a lot of feathers too, so all his Pacifics were doomed from then on in some people's eyes. I think one needs to be factual rather than emotive when discussing them. Most of them finished at sheds where there was little main line work, their annual mileages were low when compared with Gresley's engines, and particualrly the A1's, and the New England ones seem to have spent a lot of their time on duties which a B1 could have handled with ease. That suggests they weren't highly thought of or well liked. That doesn't mean that everything he did was useless though.

[S.A.C Martin]

 

I was thinking along the same lines the other day Jonathan, after reading Larry's comments about the double standards applied when watching Pacifics slip. I can only assume that all the anti Thompson vitriol stems from the rebuilding of Great Northern, and the alleged malice involved in that decision.

 

Peter Grafton's book puts it rather succinctly, and I am more inclined to believe his statement, based on the knowledge he built up of Thompson, than the "malice" which has been reported continuously for the last sixty years:

 

"...Thompson selected it, not so much because in his mind it personified Gresley and therefore by rebuilding it he was symbolically destroying him, but because he - Thompson - felt that if his ideas and designs were successful, then it was fitting that no.4470 should be the first locomotive to embody the improvements that were envisaged".

 

As for coaches, in complete agreement with all - they are wonderfully elegant designs, and in the crimson cream, a tough choice between those or the Gresleys for my favourite coach styles.

 

I guess the rebuilding of the P2's ruffled a lot of feathers too, so all his Pacifics were doomed from then on in some people's eyes. I think one needs to be factual rather than emotive when discussing them. Most of them finished at sheds where there was little main line work, their annual mileages were low when compared with Gresley's engines, and particualrly the A1's, and the New England ones seem to have spent a lot of their time on duties which a B1 could have handled with ease. That suggests they weren't highly thought of or well liked. That doesn't mean that everything he did was useless though.

 

I just find it rather interesting that there's also no mention of the conditions the locomotives were built under either (particularly the P2 rebuilds). I simply can't accept that his pacifics were "useless" when the facts say they may have been inferior in some regards to the A1s and A4s. It's almost like comparing a black five with a Hall and saying the Hall is useless. Both locomotive classes did the job asked of them and without much fuss. There's no record that the Thompson locomotives were in any way deficient in haulage, speed, steaming propensities, and the accusations of slipping being the main cause for concern is laughable, given all Pacific locomotives slip in various conditions.

 

Given they had pretty much the same boiler, cab arrangement, tender arrangement, even front end bar the position of the front bogie, one wonders what on earth all the thus was about (if we ignore the anti-Thompson bias prevalent still in the press and amongst LNER fans for the most part).

[Coldgunner]

Especially true considering the P2's were built for the inclines of the northern section of the ECML. Each constituent company built loco's for their own region, hence why things didn't go too well during the exchange trials.

[micklner]

A read of East Coast Pacifics at Work by Peter Townsend Shed master at Top Shed with regard to Thompson Pacifics puts a lot of untruths to bed .

The only one to get major critcisms from him is the unloved A2/2 with major problems with the grafted on front of the frames cracking etc. A lot of this may in his words have been to poor maintence at Cowlairs and a poor bogie design. The second was redesigned in the 1950's. For all their problems they still managed between 3/4 and a million miles in service.

I admit I tend to ignore Thomos coaches as they are out of my modelling period , as usual Coach has amde a excellent job of the one above.

Thompson was his own worst enemy with some of his rebuild decisons. I cannot understand why the P2 was not used from Kings Cross at a time of war and the LNER never had any money ? So why spend cash on rebuilding 5 locos at such a time no logic at all. Thompson caould have simply built a extra 5 A2/1s or V2 s as replacements at less cost and design time.

 

 

Glad the camera is up and running well done.

Edited November 4, 2011 by micklner

[S.A.C Martin]

So why spend cash on rebuilding 5 locos at such a time no logic at all. Thompson caould have simply built a extra 5 A2/1s or V2 s as replacements at less cost and design time.

 

The A2/2s came first actually Mick. The A2/1s were built on the basis of the success of the A2/2s in terms of maintenance and reliability.

[micklner]

Indeed , however I doubt if they built due to the A2/2 reliability due to the spliced frames problems which were discovered early after the rebuilds. They were also more economical than the A2/2.

 

The A2/1 had redesigned one piece frames not cut downand spliced P2 frames overall much more reliable than the A2/2s and more power than the V2 which they replaced on the order books.

[A Murphy]

That Thompson Brake 2nd looks pretty special even by Coach's ludicrously high standards. Is there any chance of this layout appearing in MI3 or 4? Inspirational doesn't begin to do it justice.

 

Best wishes,

 

Alastair

[S.A.C Martin]

Indeed , however I doubt if they built due to the A2/2 reliability due to the spliced frames problems which were discovered early after the rebuilds. They were also more economical than the A2/2.

 

The A2/2 wasn't unreliable as far as I'm aware - reliability defined in my books by being able to do the job they were designed for, day in and day out, which seems to be the case. However, not having the relevant RCTS volume or works card to hand, I am only going on the knowledge I have of the timekeepers of the period and their thoughts on the locomotive class in general.

 

I could well believe the economy, however, with the larger grate and higher boiler pressure. It begs the question why they were less coal hungry as A2/2s and moreso as P2s when little in the way of the boiler and grate size was changed.

 

The A2/1 had redesigned one piece frames not cut downand spliced P2 frames overall much more reliable than the A2/2s and more power than the V2 which they replaced on the order books.

 

That's interesting Mick, I wasn't aware of the one piece frames.

[micklner]

Last on this one so not to clog up GN layout thread.

A2/2 designed a express passenger locomotive as early as 1946 they had been downgraded to goods engines albeit on express use.

2005 had 30 visits to the works in 14 years

The main achilles heel was the cobbled together frames and general poor riding due again to frames and poor bogie design as mentioned earlier.

The design was a compromose due to the LNER or Thompson's or both ?? decision to reuse as much of the P2 as possible. It has been stated the A2/2 was designed around its coupling rods hardly a good start to a career.

 

Last bit of lining on my A2/2 Wolf of Badenoch over weekend so far she looks a cracker in Apple Green

Edited November 5, 2011 by micklner

[S.A.C Martin]

Once again, my apologies Gilbert - I have taken the thread off course for what must be the third time in as many weeks!

 

I wonder if a general LNER discussion thread for locomotives and stock would be a goer?

 

Final point from me this evening - loving the photographs Gilbert. Blue Peter looks very much at home in those surroundings.

[great northern]

Once again, my apologies Gilbert - I have taken the thread off course for what must be the third time in as many weeks!

 

I wonder if a general LNER discussion thread for locomotives and stock would be a goer?

 

Final point from me this evening - loving the photographs Gilbert. Blue Peter looks very much at home in those surroundings.

 

 

Not to worry Simon, we are all interested in the glory of steam, so things are bound to go off at a tangent occasionally. Let's look at it in this way. Whether or not Mr Thompson's Pacifics were succesful, they were an integral and intriguing part of the railway of the late '40's and the '50's, and made their own significant contribution to the diversity of locos and stock that was endlessly fascinating. I regard myself as having been fortunate indeed to be around when they were. I still have a very vivid memory of Chamoisaire backing into number one bay at Peterborough. I think I was nine. It wasn't half big! And its not bad is it that they can still arouse discussion half a century after they ceased to exist.

[great northern]

As promised, here are a few of the images Andy took on Wednesday. Lovely stuff.

 

 

Well, would you believe it! it's one of those controversial Thompson thingies.

 

 

 

I've put these three together as I'm struck by the way Andy manages to convey a real bulk to the locos, apart from solving the back lighting problem. That 3F was a New England loco in 1958 for some reason by the way.

 

 

Last one for now. The rear of Gravy Train's wonderful North box. It's a shame that it faces this way, so the front which is even more detailed can't be seen from this side of the layout, but this is impressive enough, isn't it? More of these superb buildings coming shortly.

[great northern]

That Thompson Brake 2nd looks pretty special even by Coach's ludicrously high standards. Is there any chance of this layout appearing in MI3 or 4? Inspirational doesn't begin to do it justice.

 

Best wishes,

 

Alastair

 

Hi Alastair,

 

Having spoken with Andy, I am able to say that MI3 will contain an article, and there will be more to follow in due course. Many thanks for the generous comments.

 

Gilbert

[S.A.C Martin]

How can anyone say Mons Meg isn't handsome when viewed from that angle and on that stunning layout. I am very much looking forward to MI3.

[great northern]

Been a bit quiet this weekend folks, as I managed to resist both running trains and taking photos, and got on with a bit of modelling. There is still so much to do, I think I've just been putting off getting started on anything. Anyway, within a couple of days there may be something to show for this sudden burst of activity. In the meantime, here are a few more of Andy's lovely pics.

 

 

What is it that's attractive about a grimy WD? You couldn't call them handsome by any stretch of the imagination, but they have character. This is yet another one waiting patiently to get into New England yard. The crew probably aren't in a hurry, as there could be overtime pay not far away.

 

 

Next is A1 Sir Vincent Raven waiting to return home with the Down Heart of Midlothian.

 

 

Which had been brought in a few minutes earlier by A4 Gannet. The fireman has been very quick in removing the express lights.

 

 

And panning to the left, modernisation in the form of a Cravens DMU waits to transfer to Platform 4 to form an all stations stopper to Louth.

[Andy Y]

I chime in somewhat belatedly on Gilbert's topic although I've taken a close interest in developments through this topic. Having had the pleasure of seeing PN in the flesh now I can wholeheartedly say that the layout is superb. What is more outstanding though is the thought processes which come together in the formation of a coherent and interesting project which undeniably has a very strong presence of time and place. One of the reasons that the layout is so good is because of what's not there. It's an excellent example of making provision for what's off-scene and operating accordingly to make the portion modelled all the more credible and enjoyable to experience. Although there's a massive amount to the layout it hasn't been spoiled by attempting to include more than is necessary to make it authentic nor does it over-reach itself in attempts to try and bring too much into the layout.

 

If this were an exhibition layout, it would certainly come to be regarded as a particularly popular layout having all the ingredients of a crowd-pleaser. I'd dropped by to see Gilbert on my travels really to see if I could help out on the camera front as I'd picked up on the frustrations of illustrating the project and it was purely a case of setting up the white balance for different lighting and then a bit of point and shoot at track level. I look forward immensely to seeing the layout develop, particularly when the buildings start to appear and it would be great to do some shots including techniques for extending the depth of field as the expresses call and pass through the station to capture the scope of the layout. In the meantime I know people are in for some really evocative images in the not too distant future.

[coachmann]

What is it that's attractive about a grimy WD? You couldn't call them handsome by any stretch of the imagination, but they have character.

When steam locos abounded on BR, I had no time for the Austerities, and yet they are one of those locos that look particularly good in model form, something I discovered after building a whitemetal kit to go on a Joeuff tender drive chassis many decades ago. For me the authentic weathering on Gilberts engine adds to the character of these unloved machines.

[JeffP]

As above, Frodingham shed had loads of "Dubbies", even the celebrity 90732 "Vulcan", the only namer, was ours until it was withdrawn. We payed them all little attention...........but what would I give to see, and hear, one steaming up Gunness bank with a full load of coal again?

 

The coach is beautiful, and the pictures are, once again, evocative and interesting.

 

As for Thompson's locos, I really liked 60113, "Great Northern", perhaps it was the fact that it was the only class member to carry those particular shaped smoke deflectors, (windies). And it was a Doncaster loco in it's final years, so we saw it regularly.

 

I wish you could get a model of it in 7mm scale...........

[great northern]

As above, Frodingham shed had loads of "Dubbies", even the celebrity 90732 "Vulcan", the only namer, was ours until it was withdrawn. We payed them all little attention...........but what would I give to see, and hear, one steaming up Gunness bank with a full load of coal again?

 

The coach is beautiful, and the pictures are, once again, evocative and interesting.

 

As for Thompson's locos, I really liked 60113, "Great Northern", perhaps it was the fact that it was the only class member to carry those particular shaped smoke deflectors, (windies). And it was a Doncaster loco in it's final years, so we saw it regularly.

 

I wish you could get a model of it in 7mm scale...........

 

Yes, there is now only one thing missing so far as my WD's are concerned, I can't hear them! I only have a couple of A4's with sound decoders, but I think now there is one available for a WD at least one of my fleet will have to be fitted with one.

[coachmann]

Picture an overcast damp Sunday afternoon in cottonopolis, the heady mix of soot, boiled potatoes and cabbage in the air mixing with the smell of chicken feed off the allotments. The clanking of an Austerity 2-8-0 drowns out Ruby Murray on Forces Favourites as it drifts down grade light engine across the fields towards the shed at Lees. It might have been a scene that had unfolded a million times for most folk, but to an enthusiast, it was the beginning of a new wave.......The damned WD's were moving in to take replace "our" Austin Sevens!

[Gravy Train]

Hi All,

Yet mmore attempts to load up photos, to top it I have lost my compplete constructional set of photos as my card is no longer recognised by my computer it says can't recognise thedirectory and have since found out that all my photos are deleted i'm absolutly furious all that work taking photos for sweet nothing.:-(

Good news is I managed too save a couple to the hard drive at a point when i was saving to the computer before being distracted :-)

Station masters house.

 

 

 

 

A closer view showing before paintwork cleaned up.

the model looks bent but i can assure it is perfectly straight, no wide angle lense

 

 

 

 

more to follow including some lovely island platform side canopy brackets etched by our own Pete Harvey PHD models.

now to the dentist :-(

 

cheers

Peter

Edited November 7, 2011 by Gravy Train

[Gravy Train]

forgot t mention brackets and mre gubbins are not shown on this photo, such as station awning etc.