Peterborough North

[Theakerr]

Nice to see some freight pictures.  I cannot comment on the ECML but certainly on the Crimsby/Peterborough line there was a fair bit of freight (if my memory serves me correctly).  coal, iron ore, sugar beet, fish (for the period you are covering I think there would have been at least three if not four fish trains a day), steel products from Scunthorpe and all the misc stuff to keep the farmers happy. 

[jonny777]

The 1957 WTT lists three fish trains passing New England, the 1730 New Clee to East Goods (through North station at 2028), the 1758 New Clee to East Goods (North at 2047), and the 1900 Grimsby Docks to Kings Cross (North at 2245).

 

The only other services on the Boston-Peterborough route booked further than New England yard, are the 1735 class E Boston Goods to Peterborough East which passes North at 2057, the 1600 class D Boston to Ferme Park passing North at 2205 (after picking up at Kirton, Algakirk, Surfleet, and Spalding), the 2040 class D Boston to Ferme Park pass North at 2249, and the 2235 class D Grimsby to Kings Cross pass North at 0015.

[great northern]

Not a full rake in my case -thank goodness - but topping and tailing Bachmann Mk1 Pullmans with GA brakes. Still a pricy proposition

It certainly is David. How about two Hornby Railroad brakes, lower the ride height, put the correct bogies on, and paint the shiny roof and icing sugar interior. The basic model is pretty good, according to no less an authority than TW. I'm certainly happy with mine.

[davidw]

It certainly is David. How about two Hornby Railroad brakes, lower the ride height, put the correct bogies on, and paint the shiny roof and icing sugar interior. The basic model is pretty good, according to no less an authority than TW. I'm certainly happy with mine.

 

Hmm far cheaper - It think Penguin of Doom did a bit of work on an upgrade of the Hornby cars about 18months back. A cheaper option.

 

I 've emailed Bachmann a couple of time about them doing 1928 Pullmans - you never know.

Edited August 26, 2013 by davidw

[jukebox]

It certainly is David. How about two Hornby Railroad brakes, lower the ride height, put the correct bogies on, and paint the shiny roof and icing sugar interior. The basic model is pretty good, according to no less an authority than TW. I'm certainly happy with mine.

 

Hmmmm now that sounds like a good idea... Pimp My Pullman:

 

 

I've not dealt with the roof, but did do a refit to the interior on two of my Hornby brakes.

 

The problem is, they make the detail inside the Bachmann ones look naff now.

[jonny777]

Returning to the subject of fish (and other East Lincs line goods) trains through Peterborough North, there always seemed to be less down empty trains than their were loaded up ones.

 

I have always assumed that the empty vans were lighter and therefore the down trains were longer, but have no photographic or recorded evidence to prove this. Another probability is that some empty fish vans returned as a fitted head in more mixed goods services.

 

Anyway the 1957 WTT lists only two fish empties, the 0045 class D Kings Cross to New Clee, due to pass Peterborough North at 0320, and the 0940 class C Kings Cross to New Clee which stopped at Westwood Yard at 1200 for 3 minutes to change crews.

 

Strangely, there is no return working of the Boston to Ferme Park or the Peterborough East to Boston, although there is an 0600 New England all stations pick-up goods to Boston. Presumably, as with some of the fish empties, the fruit and veg vans 'made their own way back' in various Ferme Park/Kings Cross Goods to New England regular services?

[Theakerr]

From my memories of New Waltham, the empty fish trains were always longer than the up full ones.  From the data, I wonder where the coal trains left since they are not shown as going through Peterborough and where the iron ore (full and empty) came in and left the Grimsby Peterborough line.

[great northern]

From my memories of New Waltham, the empty fish trains were always longer than the up full ones.  From the data, I wonder where the coal trains left since they are not shown as going through Peterborough and where the iron ore (full and empty) came in and left the Grimsby Peterborough line.

Of course until very recently we would have been given the definitive answer to this from the man who was there and issued the orders.   In his much lamented absence, I can only hope that I am somewhere near right in what I am about to say. I am positive that no iron ore trains came through Peterborough. The High Dyke trains started further North of course, and I believe reached the E.Lincs at Boston. The coal trains I am pretty certain would have been remarshalled or at least re-engined and crewed at Whitemoor, and then used the remainder of the GN/GE or the GE main line to get to London. Andy would have told us about that in no time flat.

 

I don't have the summer 1958 Goods WTT, though I have been offered access to every other one for the period around that, so can't ansrwe the earlier question about "one way" trains, but I think it extremely likely that the return journeys would indeed have been in long trains of empties. I'm sure I remember from somewhere that such trains could be one third longer than loaded ones for a loco of a particular power rating?

[jonny777]

The iron ore trains came mainly from High Dyke sidings, or Belvoir Junction and at the time of the WTT I have, 1957, they had been routed via Sleaford and Boston in order to avoid reversal at Lincoln, and to take some slow traffic away from the level crossings which were a cause for complaint from road users. There was a time when iron ore trains ran via the Midland through Stamford and then via East station to March, but I think that was a temporary measure sometime in the 1960s. Most iron ore from Northamptonshire went via the MR to Corby or Stanton. One train from Welham did go to Frodingham on weekdays, but that also went via Sleaford and Boston off the GN&LNW Jt.

 

Not all coal trains ran to Whitemoor, there were quite a number which came to New England either from Doncaster or  Warsop/Mansfield, and as you say, they would be re-marshalled into the regular New England - Ferme Park services, with local loads removed.  I do not have the southern ECML WTT for that period, but I would imagine the London goods services ran every two or three hours between those two points, or other nearby destinations close to Kings Cross.

 

I was rather surprised at the absence of any services from the Scunthorpe area to New England, but it would appear that all the steel trains did go to Whitemoor, and presumably any material for Peterborough was tripped from March.

Edited August 25, 2013 by jonny777

[Theakerr]

Forgot to mention on the subject of freight.  The 15:00 Cleethorpes/Grimsby to London train would always have at least one van and often three vans loaded with fish on ice (not necessarily fish vans) on the rear.  There was also a London train somewhere between 17:00 and 18:00 (I think) that would always have vans loaded with fish on ice.  In the later years I remember the regular vans sometimes being replaced by fish vans.  I assume that the vans were brought up from the docks and put on the rear at Grimsby when the loco changed ends.  

[great northern]

Of course until very recently we would have been given the definitive answer to this from the man who was there and issued the orders.   In his much lamented absence, I can only hope that I am somewhere near right in what I am about to say. I am positive that no iron ore trains came through Peterborough. The High Dyke trains started further North of course, and I believe reached the E.Lincs at Boston. The coal trains I am pretty certain would have been remarshalled or at least re-engined and crewed at Whitemoor, and then used the remainder of the GN/GE or the GE main line to get to London. Andy would have told us about that in no time flat.

 

I don't have the summer 1958 Goods WTT, though I have been offered access to every other one for the period around that, so can't ansrwe the earlier question about "one way" trains, but I think it extremely likely that the return journeys would indeed have been in long trains of empties. I'm sure I remember from somewhere that such trains could be one third longer than loaded ones for a loco of a particular power rating?

By my period there was a policy decision to shift as much traffic as possible from Peterborough to Whitemoor, mainly because of the widely scattered sidings and marshalling areas which meant that some traffic spent days in the Peterborough area just travelling from one yard to another. I would surmise that is the reason for the use of the ex GE lines for most E. Lincs traffic. There was still a huge amount of coal traffic through Peterborough though. In 1960 there were 23 Up trains to the London area, most of which were at least partly coal. The majority ran before 0900 or after 1900, but there were also trains at 1408,1416 and 1424, and at 1618 and 1624, so there were quiet periods even in the middle of the day when it was possible to programme in a succession of slow workings. I bet they still spent a lot of time in loops waiting for a path though. As to arrivals from the North, mainly from the Nottinghamshire and S. Yorkshire coalfields, two trains from Boston, but apart from fish traffic nothing else at all from the E.Lincs. Clever eh? I managed to reply to my own post instead of Jonny 777's.

Edited August 26, 2013 by great northern

[great northern]

Forgot to mention on the subject of freight.  The 15:00 Cleethorpes/Grimsby to London train would always have at least one van and often three vans loaded with fish on ice (not necessarily fish vans) on the rear.  There was also a London train somewhere between 17:00 and 18:00 (I think) that would always have vans loaded with fish on ice.  In the later years I remember the regular vans sometimes being replaced by fish vans.  I assume that the vans were brought up from the docks and put on the rear at Grimsby when the loco changed ends.  

I'm sure you are right Jim that the vans were attached to the rear at Grimsby Docks station. I believe though that they didn't go all the way to London. There are none shown in the Carriage workings for Peterborough. I'll try to find one or two books, as I'm sure that these "add ons" are dealt with somewhere.

[Theakerr]

Gilbert, thats interesting about the fish vans not going all the way through to London.  My memory says that the 15:00 was a through train to London but again that was many many years ago.As a child we had always understood that the fish vans, especially on the 15:00, were put on specially so that the people eating out in London could have "fresh" fish for dinner at the better restaurants.    That's not to say that the impression was correct though.  I will talk to my Sisters and see what their memory is.  By the way, I think they would have to be put on at Grimsby Town.  If they were put on at Grimsby Docks they would have been either at the front end or would have had to be changed to the back at Grimsby Town.

p.s.  Mayflower now regularly hauls a rake of 10 Gresleys (with two coaches behind the Guards Van as per my memory) on my make believe 07:00 Cleethorpes/Grimsby to London on the intermediate stopping train.  Grimsby, Louth, Firsby, Boston, Spalding, PETERBOROUH NORTH, Hitchin Kings Cross

Edited August 27, 2013 by Theakerr

[great northern]

Gilbert, thats interesting about the fish vans not going all the way through to London.  My memory says that the 15:00 was a through train to London but again that was many many years ago.As a child we had always understood that the fish vans, especially on the 15:00, were put on specially so that the people eating out in London could have "fresh" fish for dinner at the better restaurants.    That's not to say that the impression was correct though.  I will talk to my Sisters and see what their memory is.  By the way, I think they would have to be put on at Grimsby Town.  If they were put on at Grimsby Docks they would have been either at the front end or would have had to be changed to the back at Grimsby Town.

p.s.  Mallard now regularly hauls a rake of 10 Gresleys (with two coaches behind the Guards Van as per my memory) on my make believe 07:00 Cleethorpes/Grimsby to London on the intermediate stopping train.  Grimsby, Louth, Firsby, Boston, Spalding, PETERBOROUH NORTH, Hitchin Kings Cross

 I decided that yesterday and today were going to be modelling days Jim, so I haven't yet gone searching for the book which i think I need. I have just remembered though that Grimsby was "Resort for Railfans" in a 1958 Trains Illustrated, and I think that is where I saw the information I quoted earlier. The 1502 Grimsby - KX did not get to London till 2200 , so It seems unlikely that any fish carried in that train would have been available for London diners that evening. I'll try to get at the books tomorrow.

[great northern]

After 75 holes golf last week, plus two lessons and a couple of sessions at the driving range, I realised that there really is no fool like an old fool, and decided to leave it alone for a few days. Yesterday and today were therefore allocated to modelling. Did I do any?  Yes, i did, lots. I even put quite a few of those tiny tare weight transfers onto the vans I painted weeks ago. Add in some more mineral wagons that actually now carry minerals, and a few weathering jobs too, and I've done more than I have managed in weeks. As usual it was just a matter of forcing myself to get started. No pictures of trains therefore, but fear not, it is most unlikely that this sudden rush of modelling energy will last.

[Brass0four]

Please forgive me, Gilbert. I need the answer to a Great Northern question and its hardly worth a thread in itself. You and your readers will be the most knowledgeable.

 

Q: What sort of roof did Copley Hill have before it was modernised? North-light or otherwise?

 

Thank you,

 

Tony.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Brass0four

[gresley]

Please forgive me, Gilbert. I need the answer to a Great Northern question and its hardly worth a thread in itself. You and your readers will be the most knowledgeable.

 

Q: What sort of roof did Copley Hill have before it was modernised? North-light or otherwise?

 

Thank you,

 

Tony.

 

Hi Tony,

 

Must say, you come up with the most difficult questions.   Where do you dig them up from ????

 

Anyway, "you aint beat me yet".   Bit complicated but here goes:

 

Information quoted comes from 2 pubs, namely Great Northern Engine Sheds, Vols 1 and 3, by Roger Griffiths & John Hooper, Vol 1, Irwell Press, 1989,

Vol 3, Booklaw, 2000.

 

Vol 3 contains a photo showing remains of a section of roof after war damage, (page 79).   Not very helpful.   However, on page 81, there is a description of the building of Copley Hill Shed.

"Copley Hill engine shed incorporated a number of features that were revolutionary for the GNR.   First, the brick-built, 5-road, 305ft x 75ft depot was of the through type and featured a transverse pitch roof.   In adopting that style of covering, the GN abandoned the then standard 'northlight' pattern in favour of a design used only once before on the railway, in 1862, for the 8-road satraight shed at King's Cross "Top Shed".

 

Vol 1 contains a photo of top shed, (page 17).    Whilst the building shown is not specifically named in the caption, the view, together with the description given on page 13  of the actual building of the new shed, seem to identify the roof of the building in the picture.

 

"The new building was in brick, with a roof of a pattern new to the GNR - four slated transverse pitches, each with a smoke collecting trough running along the ridge for nearly the entire width of the building, and venting via a square chimney above each road."

 

I appreciate that this is a bit long-winded, but hope it is of some help for you.

 

Regards,

 

gresley

[Brass0four]

Hi Tony,

 

Must say, you come up with the most difficult questions.   Where do you dig them up from ????

 

Anyway, "you aint beat me yet".   Bit complicated but here goes:

 

Information quoted comes from 2 pubs, namely Great Northern Engine Sheds, Vols 1 and 3, by Roger Griffiths & John Hooper, Vol 1, Irwell Press, 1989,

Vol 3, Booklaw, 2000.

 

Vol 3 contains a photo showing remains of a section of roof after war damage, (page 79).   Not very helpful.   However, on page 81, there is a description of the building of Copley Hill Shed.

"Copley Hill engine shed incorporated a number of features that were revolutionary for the GNR.   First, the brick-built, 5-road, 305ft x 75ft depot was of the through type and featured a transverse pitch roof.   In adopting that style of covering, the GN abandoned the then standard 'northlight' pattern in favour of a design used only once before on the railway, in 1862, for the 8-road satraight shed at King's Cross "Top Shed".

 

Vol 1 contains a photo of top shed, (page 17).    Whilst the building shown is not specifically named in the caption, the view, together with the description given on page 13  of the actual building of the new shed, seem to identify the roof of the building in the picture.

 

"The new building was in brick, with a roof of a pattern new to the GNR - four slated transverse pitches, each with a smoke collecting trough running along the ridge for nearly the entire width of the building, and venting via a square chimney above each road."

 

I appreciate that this is a bit long-winded, but hope it is of some help for you.

 

Regards,

 

gresley

Thanks, gresley,

 

I think your information is the best I'll get - I've searched for some time. Reason? Despite earlier remarks by myself, I'm not regionally bound. I've been seeking a compact shed relative to the ECML and I favour Copley Hill over Grantham. However, I do have a six road north-light shed well into building, so I was hoping this could be modified for Copley. Such is life.

 

Thanks for your patience, Gilbert. (I should have pm'd you in the first place)

 

Tony.

[Guest 2750]

Thanks, gresley,

 

I think your information is the best I'll get - I've searched for some time. Reason? Despite earlier remarks by myself, I'm not regionally bound. I've been seeking a compact shed relative to the ECML and I favour Copley Hill over Grantham. However, I do have a six road north-light shed well into building, so I was hoping this could be modified for Copley. Such is life.

 

Thanks for your patience, Gilbert. (I should have pm'd you in the first place)

 

Tony.

 

 

Hi Tony

 

There is a very good photo in this months Steam World, showing an N1 on the Main Line with a striking photo of Copley Hill and the Carriage Works behind.

 

Cheers

 

Tom

[Brass0four]

Hi Tony

 

There is a very good photo in this months Steam World, showing an N1 on the Main Line with a striking photo of Copley Hill and the Carriage Works behind.

 

Cheers

 

Tom

Thanks, Tom - I'll certainly check that out. Shed loco portraits are more easily found, but other shots much less so.

 

Tony.

[great northern]

Here is another test of your powers of observation. I know you have seen this type of shot before, but there is a significant difference.

[jwealleans]

Almost identical shot in #4361.  Either the W1 is new (surely not?) or you've bedded in the canopy support leg?  The surface doesn't look much different and I can't see anything else you might have fiddled with.

 

When are these wagons you've been working on due through, then?

Edited August 27, 2013 by jwealleans

[Mallard60022]

Yes JW I too think W1 ?

P

[Mallard60022]

OK this isn't Peterborough North but is related (honestly).

A return hockey special from Kings Cross to Leeds, in the summer of 1958, has a special loco in charge never before seen on the ECML. In fact it is so unusual that some of the fans have stolen the numberplate and lamps and removed its identity (44756). Sadly some also climbed on the loco and bent the handrails; vandals! Related - well all this happened when the train was sidelined at Peterborough for quite some time to allow  the tender axles to be checked.

Note the 'ganger' turning away & gagging in shock as it passes

Quack.

P.S.

Oh I forgot to thank the 'spotter' who took the pic. He told me he was so shocked when it appeared from under the road bridge south of Little Bytham Station that he forgot to report to the signalman that the lamps were missing. He had invested just days before in a new camera and a roll of colour film; what luck!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks to Mr T Wright for setting up this'test run'.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Mallard60022

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

crumbs, and I thought a Black Five couldn't get any uglier...