Peterborough North

[great northern]

The thing with dusk is that as you lose the light in the sky, you lose it on everything else too. As the sun goes down, the general level of light is reduced, and the things furthest from the light source get darker first. The result is that things on the ground slip into shadow, but the sky is still being lit by the sun which has sunk below the horizon, so it is the last place to go dark. Light travels in a straight line, so it's only reflected light that hits the ground at all. Your eyes then compensate for the lack of light, so the sky ends up looking as light a colour as it does in daylight, while everything else is in shadow.

 

Probably better not to try any photos in the gathering dusk so, unless it's the silhouette of an A4 against the sky (which would be nice).

 

Alan

Thanks Alan, that's very helpful. I shall add dusk shots to the list of things not to be attempted, along with zoom shots under the roof.

[Brass0four]

New England were no better Tony, but then in 1955 167 locos were allocated, for which there were 9 cleaners, and just 2 for shed cleaning. Geoffrey Freeman Allen put that down to the much better wages available in local industry, so it is quite likely that Gateshead had the same problem.

 

You could well be right. In those days there was much fuller employment, with plenty of unskilled jobs available  in the major industries. North Shields Fish Quay; Smiths Dock, Swan Hunters, etc., etc.,  and that's just north of the Tyne. The building industry, collieries and so on, all offering labouring jobs at - I would imagine - better rates of pay. I'd like to think there was a good excuse. But all of us Central Station spotters were genuinely ashamed, annoyed, and - embarrassed! 

 

I have to add my thanks yet again for such a stimulating and educational build/thread. I've long thought that the protypical layouts currently in build, such as yours, Little Bytham, Retford and Liverpool Lime Street (to depart from the ECML) - just to mention those layouts that I personally follow - should be somehow registered with the NRM so that their running could be extensively videoed and kept on file in order to educate and entertain future generations. Film sources, good as some are, are limited to the photographer's location and viewpoint. The right models can portray those wonderful days in great, repeatable detail. Maybe a daft notion! ;-)

 

Tony.

[Mallard60022]

OK so how were Heaton loco's relatively well looked after? Or were they the Scottish loco's?

 

P

[Brass0four]

OK so how were Heaton loco's relatively well looked after? Or were they the Scottish loco's?

 

P

 

That's an interesting question Venerable Duck. I can't answer with any sort of accuracy, only my vague notions.

 

Newcastle was the Big City - an important place on the ECML. Gateshead Town, by comparison, sometimes thought of itself as an appendage that was comparatively ignored, the Works being much less crucial than in days gone by - the relationship with Newcastle was almost tribal. Assuming that the slow-to-employ round-houses were being used for major maintenance and repair, and not involved in the fast turn around of the Pacific Shed, with its cramped, insufficient space - wholly unfit for purpose - where engines were parked tight outside in the open. Whereas Heaton was a modern 8-road shed, spacious and much better to work in (I have a modelling acquaintance who was a fitter there) and Heaton was on the Newcastle side of the river, linked to Central in some notional way, where workers were proud of their shed, or so I'm told. These are just my passing thoughts, however. I was very young and too busy checking out locos as somehow sufficient in themselves, with little technological interest. And I'm not much better now.   

 

My wanderings seem a little lame;  hardly worth the *post* click. I'd be happy to be put in order by someone who knows what they are talking about.

 

Tony.

 

(This from me, and I'm supposed to have sworn-off RMweb till I achieve some actual progress with my own modelling, a room-size layout that's beyond photography till I construct a lighting-gantry - which should have been done when the baseboards were built... sheesh!) 

[great northern]

That's an interesting question Venerable Duck. I can't answer with any sort of accuracy, only my vague notions.

 

Newcastle was the Big City - an important place on the ECML. Gateshead Town, by comparison, sometimes thought of itself as an appendage that was comparatively ignored, the Works being much less crucial than in days gone by - the relationship with Newcastle was almost tribal. Assuming that the slow-to-employ round-houses were being used for major maintenance and repair, and not involved in the fast turn around of the Pacific Shed, with its cramped, insufficient space - wholly unfit for purpose - where engines were parked tight outside in the open. Whereas Heaton was a modern 8-road shed, spacious and much better to work in (I have a modelling acquaintance who was a fitter there) and Heaton was on the Newcastle side of the river, linked to Central in some notional way, where workers were proud of their shed, or so I'm told. These are just my passing thoughts, however. I was very young and too busy checking out locos as somehow sufficient in themselves, with little technological interest. And I'm not much better now.   

 

My wanderings seem a little lame;  hardly worth the *post* click. I'd be happy to be put in order by someone who knows what they are talking about.

 

Tony.

 

(This from me, and I'm supposed to have sworn-off RMweb till I achieve some actual progress with my own modelling, a room-size layout that's beyond photography till I construct a lighting-gantry - which should have been done when the baseboards were built... sheesh!) 

I think you are too hard on yourself Tony. Those of us who had the great good fortune to experience the final years of the true steam railway were all very young at that time, but our memories, such as they are, become increasingly important as time passes. There is nothing better than first hand interest and observation, in my opinion. You obviously know the area well, and have done for many years, so you are qualified to give such answers. OK, there might be people who actually worked at Gateshead or Heaton who could tell us more, but realistically they must be very thin on the ground now.

 

As to layout progress, you are not alone. My list of things to do grows every day, but there is always something else which seems more attractive in the short term. If I had spent some of the hours which I have used up in taking and processing photos to put on here numbering and weathering goods stock I'd have some more trains to show for it. However, I do enjoy the photography, and It seems I would be somewhat unpopular if I stopped doing it.

[gresley]

Gilbert,

 

Re your last sentence above:   TOO RIGHT YOU WOULD !!!!!!!

 

Stuart

[Mallard60022]

Thanks Tony. Yes I had not really appreciated that Gateshead was, not just geographically but psychologically, 'the other side' of the Tyne and so was not Newcastle! I think those long held beliefs are still held there today by many, from what I gather from supporters of another footy team that isn't 'the lads'

Interesting that Gateshead dragged on into diesel days despite being a really decrepit place (apart from the roundhouse parts) and Heaton became a coach 'park' I think, with some bog carts? The other bogs were kept where the Metro Depot is today ? When we went on organised shed bashes around the  Newcastle area in the 70s and 80s, Heaton was never on the list that I can remember. I certainly never went around it in steam days. I only passed it on the coastway loop.

P

Edited August 14, 2013 by Mallard60022

[great northern]

Rather too early this morning my bespoke cassette box arrived. First thought, blimey, its big closely followed by, how do we get that round the right angle bend half way up the stairs? The answer to that one was, with extreme difficulty. In the end though, it was settled in its new home.

This is as far back as it can go, owing to an inconveniently sited baseboard support leg, but as it is on castors I can move it out if necessary to get either underneath the boards, or to reach the tracks beyond it.

Cassettes were hastily added. As you can see, there is room for several on the top of the unit. I shall now work out how to arrange them, and then put clear identifying tags on the shelf under each one.

This is how the box relates to the cassette spur in the fiddle yard, which is directly in front of the stock you can see at the top right of the photo. The cassettes can now come out on the diagonal, and don't have far to travel to get to or from the spur. It's a far better and safer arrangement, and was well worth the expense involved.

 

There is room for 48 cassettes. This could be a bit of overkill, as at the moment I only have 28, and 8 of those are empty. Most of those are already earmarked for additional trains though, and I'm quite happy to have excess space, just in case I think of any more trains that I need. Incorrigible, moi? In any event, they will not, for the time being at least, be too closely crowded together, and that is no bad thing.

 

In summary, I'm very pleased with this. The space it takes up had no other use, and so just tended to accumulate rubbish. It doesn't interfere with operation, nor does it inhibit access, and it scores heavily on practical and safety grounds. If there was a happy bunny emoticon it would appear here.

 

One word of warning for anyone thinking of doing something similar. Foam inserts will hold stock in position, provided they are closely butted up to the stock at each end. I bet you can't guess how I found that out.

Edited August 15, 2013 by great northern

[Mallard60022]

Ah the loose butt problem Gilbert. Unpleasant, especially at our age.

Great containers. They are going to make such a difference and keep stuff more dust free I should think?

Plenty of room to position other essential layout equipment like this:

Cheers, P

 

Edited August 15, 2013 by Mallard60022

[Clive Mortimore]

Duck in wild strawberry sauce pie...yumm yumm.

 

Gilbert the cassett thingymejig looks good.

 

mr duck if you made those pies you are more than welcome to drive my model trains....providing you bring a pie or two along.

[Brass0four]

Thanks Tony. Yes I had not really appreciated that Gateshead was, not just geographically but psychologically, 'the other side' of the Tyne and so was not Newcastle! I think those long held beliefs are still held there today by many, from what I gather from supporters of another footy team that isn't 'the lads'

Interesting that Gateshead dragged on into diesel days despite being a really decrepit place (apart from the roundhouse parts) and Heaton became a coach 'park' I think, with some bog carts? The other bogs were kept where the Metro Depot is today ? When we went on organised shed bashes around the  Newcastle area in the 70s and 80s, Heaton was never on the list that I can remember. I certainly never went around it in steam days. I only passed it on the coastway loop.

P

 

You're welcome, M'Lard.

 

I forgot the source of the great divide: until the conurbation of 1975, everything south of the Tyne was in Durham County,  everything north, in Northumberland County. I was born in Whitley Bay - Northumberland - which is now in "North Tyneside", while Gateshead is now in South Tyneside. Although it was the spread of Newcastle and Gateshead Fire Brigade (Newcastle FB took over Gateshead Town FB after the War) which became Tyne and Wear Metropolitan Fire Brigade - with Newcastle as its headquarters - that lead me to become a fireman (of the wrong sort!) I. like many other Northumbrians hate the new title to this day. Shear tribalism. Youngsters aren't bothered of course, other than the obvious tribes of Sunderland and Newcastle football fans.  

 

I'm very vague concerning the Heaton area. but it isn't prime building land, whereas the post-industrial riverside offers the most sought after housing. I would have thought that the 8 track through shed that was Heaton, along with the acres of sidings surrounding it, would have been very suitable for conversion into modern MPD, whole trains being contained easily in Heaton Yard. Perhaps it was politics in the end - giving something to Gateshead which has very little its name.

 

Tony.

[Fat Controller]

You're welcome, M'Lard.

 

I forgot the source of the great divide: until the conurbation of 1975, everything south of the Tyne was in Durham County,  everything north, in Northumberland County. I was born in Whitley Bay - Northumberland - which is now in "North Tyneside", while Gateshead is now in South Tyneside. Although it was the spread of Newcastle and Gateshead Fire Brigade (Newcastle FB took over Gateshead Town FB after the War) which became Tyne and Wear Metropolitan Fire Brigade - with Newcastle as its headquarters - that lead me to become a fireman (of the wrong sort!) I. like many other Northumbrians hate the new title to this day. Shear tribalism. Youngsters aren't bothered of course, other than the obvious tribes of Sunderland and Newcastle football fans.  

 

I'm very vague concerning the Heaton area. but it isn't prime building land, whereas the post-industrial riverside offers the most sought after housing. I would have thought that the 8 track through shed that was Heaton, along with the acres of sidings surrounding it, would have been very suitable for conversion into modern MPD, whole trains being contained easily in Heaton Yard. Perhaps it was politics in the end - giving something to Gateshead which has very little its name.

 

Tony.

Heaton became the DMU depot, absorbing South Gosforth's allocation when that closed, as well as the carriage sidings covering the area; it also has housed HSTs since they appeared on the ECML (1977?). Looking at Quail, Heaton's still a force to be reckoned with; there are about forty parallel double-ended sidings, along with a six-road through shed.

I suspect part of the reason for Gateshead's survival was that it was relatively convenient for locos requiring more than routine servicing coming from Tyne Yard, the Wearside and Tyne Valley lines, obviating the need to use the busy route through Central.

[Brass0four]

Heaton became the DMU depot, absorbing South Gosforth's allocation when that closed, as well as the carriage sidings covering the area; it also has housed HSTs since they appeared on the ECML (1977?). Looking at Quail, Heaton's still a force to be reckoned with; there are about forty parallel double-ended sidings, along with a six-road through shed.

I suspect part of the reason for Gateshead's survival was that it was relatively convenient for locos requiring more than routine servicing coming from Tyne Yard, the Wearside and Tyne Valley lines, obviating the need to use the busy route through Central.

 

Thanks, Brian. If I'm honest I rather lost interest with the end of steam, although my own layout - Glasgow Fair Fortnight*, 1961 - includes some Green diesels, largley because I have neither the skill or the life left to scratch the EMUs I am fond of.

 

*Why, 'cos as a kid in Whitley Bay it was brilliant! My Mam had a boarding house; I was adopted by holidaying families to pair with their kids! - and was spoilt rotten! - AND there were some very unusual train workings. I have a picture of a V2 at Whitley Bay; if anyone has anything else relating to that period please pm me.

 

(sorry Gilbert ;-) )

 

Tony.

[Worsdell forever]

Not forgetting that Gateshead had access to both ends of Central station, very useful when busy and the lines between Central and Heaton were also very busy with suburban traffic. 

 

(sorry Gilbert ;-))

[Mallard60022]

That clears that up. I'd totally forgotten that Heaton became a HST Depot - apologies as I too more or less lost interest in anything but loco's in 1968. Sorry Gilbert. (However we are investigating the resons for filthy Gateshead loco's).

P

[Fat Controller]

That clears that up. I'd totally forgotten that Heaton became a HST Depot - apologies as I too more or less lost interest in anything but loco's in 1968. Sorry Gilbert. (However we are investigating the resons for filthy Gateshead loco's).

P

The reason for filthy locos was probably that they weren't on shed long enough to be cleaned- they'd have come in on one working, been coaled and watered, then sent back to Central. I didn't encounter Gateshead until the early 1980s, when most passenger work had gone to Heaton, but even then locos didn't tend to hang around after fuelling- it was very much a pit-stop.

One of my drivers at Eurotunnel used to fire, then drive, on the ECML. He'd been at Grantham, then Top Shed; whilst at Grantham, he used to work through to Newcastle, then lodge, before working back the next day. He married a lass whose father drove from Heaton, I believe. If anyone reading this is from Gainsborough, they might know him (Peter Paine)- he was involved with Gainsborough club, I think.

[great northern]

Gilbert,

 

Re your last sentence above:   TOO RIGHT YOU WOULD !!!!!!!

 

Stuart

OooooH Cyber bullying!

[great northern]

No need for all these "Sorry Gilbert" comments. We are all interested in the ECML as it was, and any information is of value and interest. Discussion of the latest happenings in Big Brother for example, would not be welcomed.

[Brass0four]

The reason for filthy locos was probably that they weren't on shed long enough to be cleaned- they'd have come in on one working, been coaled and watered, then sent back to Central. I didn't encounter Gateshead until the early 1980s, when most passenger work had gone to Heaton, but even then locos didn't tend to hang around after fuelling- it was very much a pit-stop.

One of my drivers at Eurotunnel used to fire, then drive, on the ECML. He'd been at Grantham, then Top Shed; whilst at Grantham, he used to work through to Newcastle, then lodge, before working back the next day. He married a lass whose father drove from Heaton, I believe. If anyone reading this is from Gainsborough, they might know him (Peter Paine)- he was involved with Gainsborough club, I think.

 

Thanks Brian,

 

That, I'm happy to say, is the most likely of reasons. I was talking to  guy in Rolling Stock - my local model shop - just the other day, and he is forever bemoaning the filthy Gateshead locos. The next time I see him - and anybody else - I'll tell them of this. I think one of the reasons for our discomfort was a proprietorial sense that the engines that actually belonged to Gateshead Shed, should have been cleaned as a matter of pride, but - belonging or not - the quick turn around would have negated this possibility.

 

I for one am content with this,

 

Tony.

[great northern]

Things could change very rapidly so far as locomotive cleaning was concerned. For the first few years that I was out spotting Grantham Pacifics were second only to Top Shed in their appearance, and not by much. Some time in 1959 though, everything changed, and no cleaning at all took place. Within weeks the Grantham A3's were in a terrible state. I'm not just relying on memory, look at contemporary photos and the change is dramatic. I've no idea why this happened, but it must surely have been a policy decision?  It wasn't a gradual thing, so a steady loss of cleaners to the point where it was no longer viable doesn't seem to be the cause. I've always been puzzled about this.

[Fat Controller]

Things could change very rapidly so far as locomotive cleaning was concerned. For the first few years that I was out spotting Grantham Pacifics were second only to Top Shed in their appearance, and not by much. Some time in 1959 though, everything changed, and no cleaning at all took place. Within weeks the Grantham A3's were in a terrible state. I'm not just relying on memory, look at contemporary photos and the change is dramatic. I've no idea why this happened, but it must surely have been a policy decision?  It wasn't a gradual thing, so a steady loss of cleaners to the point where it was no longer viable doesn't seem to be the cause. I've always been puzzled about this.

A few thoughts on this;

Firstly, the lads who'd been doing the cleaning would have been called up for National Service. Talking to others from different areas, they might have been awakened to the idea that there were other ways of earning a crust, that didn't involve getting up at stupid 'o'clock, and sought work elsewhere.

Secondly, those cleaners remaining might well have been promoted to 'Passed Cleaner' if they had even the least aptitude for firing, and so wouldn't have been available for cleaning. A few years later than you're discussing, my old boss started as a cleaner at Tunbridge Wells West; within a year, he'd made it to Passed Cleaner, a rate of progress unheard of in previous days. A good proportion of the drivers he worked with were Passed Firemen, so the process continued through the ranks.

Thirdly, was there suddenly a change from locos being paired with particular crews to 'common user'? A former colleague who drove steam with SNCF said that once locos went 'common-user', their condition deteriorated very quickly, both aesthetically and mechanically.

[Brass0four]

Things could change very rapidly so far as locomotive cleaning was concerned. For the first few years that I was out spotting Grantham Pacifics were second only to Top Shed in their appearance, and not by much. Some time in 1959 though, everything changed, and no cleaning at all took place. Within weeks the Grantham A3's were in a terrible state. I'm not just relying on memory, look at contemporary photos and the change is dramatic. I've no idea why this happened, but it must surely have been a policy decision?  It wasn't a gradual thing, so a steady loss of cleaners to the point where it was no longer viable doesn't seem to be the cause. I've always been puzzled about this.

 

I can't recall exactly where but I'm sure that I've read that the modernising BR Board was very hostile to steam - one reason for the ultimately rapid disappearance of steam. One way to carry the public on-board would be to allow to these old-fashioned monstrosities become filthy. Clean and looked-after locos would have undermined their intention.

 

Regarding National Service, both my older brothers did so. Yet another reason for the lack of labour. And then, of course, we have The Sixties... when sex, drugs and rock 'n roll tore me away from the lineside.

 

Well... drugs and rock 'n roll...

 

Em... well... rock 'n roll.

 

All in all, with particular thanks to Brian in the previous posts, I think the situation has been very satisfactorily aired.

 

Regarding the apologies, Gilbert, it shows - at least - how everyone respects you and your project and that's no bad thing.

 

Tony.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Brass0four

[tetleys]

Well, it might be me. It would definitely have been me if I'd been told I was going to be in shot - I would have got my posture right.

LNER 4492,

I don't want to criticise your photography and I don't want to dig up the pros and cons of lens, f. stops etc. but I noticed your first high level photograph of Peterborough North seems to have distorted Gilbert's quivering 'six pack'! Other than that small over sight the rest of the shots were first class.

 

Dave S.

[davidw]

Rather too early this morning my bespoke cassette box arrived. First thought, blimey, its big closely followed by, how do we get that round the right angle bend half way up the stairs? The answer to that one was, with extreme difficulty. In the end though, it was settled in its new home.box 1.jpg

This is as far back as it can go, owing to an inconveniently sited baseboard support leg, but as it is on castors I can move it out if necessary to get either underneath the boards, or to reach the tracks beyond it.box 2.jpg

Cassettes were hastily added. As you can see, there is room for several on the top of the unit. I shall now work out how to arrange them, and then put clear identifying tags on the shelf under each one.box 3.jpg

This is how the box relates to the cassette spur in the fiddle yard, which is directly in front of the stock you can see at the top right of the photo. The cassettes can now come out on the diagonal, and don't have far to travel to get to or from the spur. It's a far better and safer arrangement, and was well worth the expense involved.

 

There is room for 48 cassettes. This could be a bit of overkill, as at the moment I only have 28, and 8 of those are empty. Most of those are already earmarked for additional trains though, and I'm quite happy to have excess space, just in case I think of any more trains that I need. Incorrigible, moi? In any event, they will not, for the time being at least, be too closely crowded together, and that is no bad thing.

 

In summary, I'm very pleased with this. The space it takes up had no other use, and so just tended to accumulate rubbish. It doesn't interfere with operation, nor does it inhibit access, and it scores heavily on practical and safety grounds. If there was a happy bunny emoticon it would appear here.

 

One word of warning for anyone thinking of doing something similar. Foam inserts will hold stock in position, provided they are closely butted up to the stock at each end. I bet you can't guess how I found that out.

Just when i was thinking i had too much stock!

[ROY@34F]

Gilbert , regarding the deterioration in cleanliness of Grantham engines at the start of '59 , I have'nt offered my thoughts so far,as I thought others would offer more feasable answers.However,as you jolted me into action with your PM,I will now tell you my own experience at that time which could well have influenced things.In late Dec.'58 ten of us Grantham passed cleaners were sent "on loan"to Top shed,along with 15 from New England.There was a shortage of passed cleaners at Top shed due to the diesel training program,as of course passed firemen took the place of drivers in training,and more passed cleaners were needed to replace the passed firemen.more on the suburban than main line workings initially,I remember,So it may well be that engine cleaning was rather neglected I feel.Although by the time I was sent back to Grantham exactly 2 years later,there were a fair number of new lads been "taken on",but when they all started I don't know.<br />As for national service,as suggested by someone,it had been gone 3 or 4 years before that.I was 16 in'57,and missed it by 3 years at least,I would suggest.So I'm sure no influence on labour.<br />Equally,the idea that passed cleaners were immune from cleaning is not true.Sorry "fat controller",I'm not picking on your theories deliberately;and as for 1 engine being allocated to 2 sets of men;This practice had been abandoned by '59 I'm sure,at least at top shed.I don't think it affected cleaning anyway.maybe in the cab,but not all over.Top shed engines were cleaned very well of course anyway,especially in P.N.Towneds's tenure,as we all know,even when all main line drivers would drive any of the engines,and others of course.there was no letting up on the pride of the A4s and A3s at top shed.<br />I once had to go for a rollicking off Mr.Townend,cap in hand,of course.I had called my driver back into the shed,and the point blades I had swiched were'nt right over due to a lump of coal I think;the tender therefore bumped along the sleepers before the driver quickly braked.(It was an A4 as well!!!)My fault of course.P.N.T.told me I'd soon be back at Grantham if there were any more incidents.(Just a snippet of useless information I thought might be interesting to some...at my expense).<br />Regards,Roy.<br />