Peterborough North

[LNER4479]

Another little test of observation today, as I want to see if the addition to the layout made during Peter Leyland's visit yesterday makes as much impact on others as it did on us. So, can you see what's new? One clue - it isn't shown on the first photo.

 

Looks like the hotel has 'grown'. I'm very glad, because whenever we've stayed there in recent times, the room we stayed in didn't exist in your version - most disconcerting!

[Brass0four]

Another little test of observation today, as I want to see if the addition to the layout made during Peter Leyland's visit yesterday makes as much impact on others as it did on us. So, can you see what's new? One clue - it isn't shown on the first photo.114 50 1.jpg

A busy late evening scene. Grantham A3 Persimmon has the 6.20 pm KX - Leeds, and is about to cross Doncaster A1 W P Allen, slowing to a standstill with the Up White Rose.

114 50 2.jpg

A slightly different view of two very common ECML locos, though Persimmon did give me a cop when I saw her at Grantham in 1956, as she had just been transferred back from the GC section. We had only just arrived from Lincoln, and she appeared running back down from the turning triangle at the South end. Why is it that events such as this stick in the memory? I made a lot of visits to the ECML back then, but I have no memory at all of most of them.

114 50 3.jpg

And a view from Crescent Bridge.

114 and hotel.jpg

A closer view of the A1.

50 high.jpg

and the A3 from on high.

forecourt 5 Aug.jpg

While the camera was on the tripod I took this, as I know some people like to see shots that show a broader view of the layout. Lots of clutter in the background which I should have tided up though.

114 5 Aug.jpg

And while I was about it I tried this unusual view of the A1 too.

hotel and forecourt 1.jpg

 

I also got a bit tired of photoshopping, so this view of the hotel garden even features those ****** bookcases.

hotel.jpg

I know this doesn't work for several reasons, but it does, along with several other shots, give the answer to the question I posed. It also confirms that I must somehow get a low relief backscene of the houses on Station Road. Problem is, I've only ever seen one photo of them.

hotel 2.jpg

I liked all the different roof lines on this one.

hotel 3.jpg

And a different angle of the forecourt and hotel.

hotel and forecourt 2 5 Aug.jpg

Another thing Peter got done yesterday was the final coat of paint on the forecourt, which required one of his "tricks of the trade" techniques. I shall now get on with adding drains, manhole covers and other such exciting things. And here ends today's bumper edition.

 

He doesn't use talc to pounce (matt) the surface does he?

 

Absolutely wonderful shots but I'm glad you've mentioned the need for a LR back-building. I've been thinking this for a while, its a must, I think. Like the lettering on Peter Denny's coaches when they were first seen at exhibition (there wasn't any, but people would have sworn there was - [ too brief a paraphrase] ) I think that as good as it can be estimated might be sufficient in this case? ???

 

Tony.

[great northern]

Looks like the hotel has 'grown'. I'm very glad, because whenever we've stayed there in recent times, the room we stayed in didn't exist in your version - most disconcerting!

Yes, right first time, still if you have been sleeping in mid air up till now I suppose you would notice.   On a more serious note, it occurred to me that as the hotel itself was extended, perhaps we might be able to do the same, and Peter confirmed that it could be done. Both of us were amazed how much difference it makes when viewing the layout, particularly from the window side, but for some reason the improvement does not seem to have as much impact when photographed. Still, I'm glad we did it, and I'll now work on doing whatever else I can to get rid of that "falling off the end of the world" effect which is so obvious at present. Andy Y did say in an unguarded moment that he quite fancied having a go at some backscenes, and if he could come up with something like the superb one he did for Black Country Blues then I'd really be getting somewhere. You've got all this to come with Grantham........

[great northern]

He doesn't use talc to pounce (matt) the surface does he?

 

Absolutely wonderful shots but I'm glad you've mentioned the need for a LR back-building. I've been thinking this for a while, its a must, I think. Like the lettering on Peter Denny's coaches when they were first seen at exhibition (there wasn't any, but people would have sworn there was - [ too brief a paraphrase] ) I think that as good as it can be estimated might be sufficient in this case? ???

 

Tony.

It's a difficult one Tony. The layout is really designed to be viewed from the operating well, so I don't want to do too much to obscure viewing from that side, and of course when looking at it from there the effect isn't very noticeable. It doesn't help either that we built the baseboard tapering in towards Crescent Bridge, for what seemed like very good reasons at the time, whereas Station Road really should continue running parallel to the loading dock, and eventually under the bridge. I'm wondering about some low relief buildings which gradually become flatter as you go down the road, but I'm having difficulty visualising it in practice, let alone doing any work on it.

 

Sorry Tony, I didn't answer your question about Peter's methods of painting. He doesn't use talc, he just sort of dabs witha the brush and somehow gets this effect.

Edited August 6, 2013 by great northern

[Mallard60022]

I reckon Andy will be able to do some 'photoshopping magic' to get the effects you require to create depth where Station Road would be (and beyond). The 'theatre' style scenery now appearing 'behind' layouts is becoming very, very  creative (as in BCB).

Gilbert, it is great that we are getting more pics. Those buildings around the station are absolutely superb. The Hotel alone is just magnificent. I can smell the roast from here!

Phil

[Gravy Train]

Hi folks,

many thanks for the kind comments,

re road surface, Gilbert is correct with regard to how I applied the surface texture, as it is a card surface, rough handling with a brush applied wet/ semi wet/dry brushing created the effect.

However , my usual method is with paint and talc, it is dependant on how coarse the rd surface needs to be in relation to what we see in photos, the road surface around the station thoat was for the most part Tar mac and so in 4mm scale the texture is minimal, it will of course need furthere dry brushing to highlight more worn tar mac in certain areas if all be it to give it some varied colour tho on the whole it is uniform.

I forgot to mention I also used wet & dry and created very fine scratch marks were cars turn and such like.

cheers

Peter

[great northern]

When I went up to run some more trains a while back, the first that came up was a late evening Grimsby local, using the same stock as that which featured in Andy's close up last week. I couldn't resist experimenting a bit, and here are the results.

Same loco by the way, as it has a vac pipe   This was taken using digital zoom,and macro setting, and melts the first two coaches in exactly the same way as Andy's. It also creates waves in the Down platform.

I just used the zoom for this one - front of loco now not sharp, but distortion of the train is the same.

Just a standard photo now, no zoom or macro, less distortion, but I think there is still some there?

Interesting - in colour, to me at least, there is even less distortion? Certainly the waves have disappeared from the Down platform. I guess it just shows that a small camera like mine has its limits, and why shouldn't it? I still think it is very good indeed for the price.

[micklner]

Perhaps due to lack of light under roof? Have you taken a picture in full daylight at a similar angle ?

[Brass0four]

Hi folks,

many thanks for the kind comments,

re road surface, Gilbert is correct with regard to how I applied the surface texture, as it is a card surface, rough handling with a brush applied wet/ semi wet/dry brushing created the effect.

However , my usual method is with paint and talc, it is dependant on how coarse the rd surface needs to be in relation to what we see in photos, the road surface around the station thoat was for the most part Tar mac and so in 4mm scale the texture is minimal, it will of course need furthere dry brushing to highlight more worn tar mac in certain areas if all be it to give it some varied colour tho on the whole it is uniform.

I forgot to mention I also used wet & dry and created very fine scratch marks were cars turn and such like.

cheers

Peter

 

Thanks for confirming my notion of the talc, it really is a trick-of-the trade, particularly useful for those occasions when matt isn't *matt* enough, it sucks the reflective properties out of the surface. I'm a newcomer to model railways, but not to painting, dioramas, etc.

 

Tony.

[tetleys]

I like this 'dark and manky' one.

 

PN2sBW.jpg

I understand some members believe the rake of Gresley steel artics have actually been involved in a rail crash or were poorly built hence the 'proof' in the photograph above.

 

I've lusted after Gilbert's Gresley Artics for many years and I almost bought some kits but thankfully they never appeared since I've gone right off coach building preferring the easier route of RTR especially with the recent LNER non corridor Gresley and Thompsons.

Anyway suspecting my eye sight may have been defective all those years armed with the necessary search warrant and my vernier gauge plus my most recent pair of £9.99 reading glasses I checked out the two rakes at Peterborough North and I know, like politicians the camera never lies but this one may be fibbing a bit. Both rakes are straight and true, no bends, no ripples and no distortion oh and while I was there the platforms are also flat and true and Gilbert's cassettes were working overtime while I sat back and watched trains go by at the end of platform 2.  It's a hard life. 

 

Dave Shakespeare

[Mallard60022]

Sorry to go slightly OT. Has anyone built the Artics from Southern Pride (apart from one of the Wolverhampton wanderers)?

I had a look on their site today and my wallet gave a twitch but did not emerge from its' lair

P

[Oldddudders]

I do wonder whether the roof of the trainshed is the problem. It must dramatically reduce light levels where each spar is - and that confuses the camera sensor. It finds the light levels there to be too low to be trusted and interpolates the nearest values it can find for those photosites, which make the picture rubbish from our point of view.

[jukebox]

Interesting theory, O/D - should be easy to investigate, if Gilbert can take a photo of the same train, at the same angle as the shots in question, but out from under the station roof.

[great northern]

OK chaps, I've done my best. The problem is that there are very few straight lengths of track on the layout, except in the fiddle yard, so the nearest I can get is the excursion platform. Even then I can't get the same angle without standing outside the windows on thin air, and I'm not doing that as it is a long way down. To get these shots I have had to close all the blinds by the way, otherwise the light is impossibly bright, and the variations in exposure when a cloud passes by are extreme to say the least. Anyway, here goes.

First shot, taken without zoom or macro, 1/20 @F4 to try to stop the sunlight bleaching out the coaches altogether.

This time using nearly full zoom and macro, 1/5 @F8. Coaches totally out of focus.

Zoom and macro again. 1/4 @F8. Sun fully out again, and it is largely that which is taking all detail out of the coaches.

An attempt from the opposite end, as the light was now impossible from the original vantage point. Again 1/4 @F8 with zoom and macro. Little distortion, BUT the first coach of the leading twin seems to be at a drunken angle to the second. It isn't! when viewed with the naked eye. There is though an imperfection, in that the roof of the front coach is not quite correctly attached. It slopes downwards from front to back, though only by about 1mm. I'm sure Andy Y can tell us how much if at all that might fool the camera, but surely it would not cause that effect of the two coaches melting together? There also appears to be a large inconsistency between the rear coach of the twin and the third coach. Again in real life there isn't - the camera has exaggerated it. The connection between the twin and the composite is by press stud, and it isn't easy to get things absolutely right, even when, as here, I'm alerted to the possibility and have tried to get everything, correct. I note that Tony Wright has had exactly the same problem over on his thread.

Here is the far end of the rake, again with zoom and macro. Again the roof of the rear brake seems to be sloping, but it isn't! The difficulty with the press stud connections is obvious again. The sun came out again while taking this one.

Back to normal settings now, no zoom or macro, but this illustrates another exaggeration caused by the camera. There looks to be a huge misalignment between these two coaches, but again when viewed with the naked eye there isn't. If one is not careful, the corridor connectors can catch against each other and cause an alignment problem, but again here I was alert to that, and made sure they were correctly placed before taking the shot.

Just one more normal record shot, at a moment when the light was not quite so intense. I hope it shows that there really isn't much wrong with this rake.

 

I think this has been about done to death now. My conclusion is that the constantly changing extremes of light in the room, which are exacerbated by the gloom under the overall roof, is just more than a small camera can cope with. I've talked to Andy this morning, and he confirms that his shots were also taken with his G12. No doubt a larger and more expensive camera with the ability to use larger apertures would do better, if that is, it was possible to get such a camers into the position which is necessary to get the shot at all. Unfortunately, it isn't.

[jukebox]

Thanks very much for going to the trouble, Gilbert.

 

 

Apologies for the thread drift, but I just wanted to add a technical coda. For what it's worth, I did some searching last night, and came up with some G12 test reports online, one of which includes an image of a grid, used to show how much barrel distortion that model has (I am curious, as I have one, too):

 

 

Which comes from this site: http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/canon/powershot_g12-review/using

 

Clearly that's a pretty typical wide angle distortion pattern - which does not explain what we're all seeing at PN.

 

There's also some useful discussion on the G12 at: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/G12/G12A4.HTM

 

But to give everyone a summary, essentially the suggestion from every online review I read is that the G12 is no worse a performer than any other competent all-rounder compact.

 

So as far as a raft of online reviews are concerned, there's no explanation, sorry.  I do think the problem is software within the camera - but why a "complex" image gets scrambled and a plain grid does not is beyong my field of knowledge (and this thread).

 

I wish I had an answer for you - even if there wasn't a soloution.  So I guess all that's left to do is get back to the trains?

 

Cheers

 

Scott

Edited August 9, 2013 by jukebox

[Mallard60022]

Gilbert is correct. Done to death. We want more trains please, however 'bendy'.

Elsewhere you may find out how I know that the modern camera is a trousers on fire machine

Q

[kevinklein]

interesting reading though, is the entry for "digital camera" in wikipedia, with lots of information about the importance of sensor size, as opposed to pixel count... i learned a bit about this trying to work out why my new 10 megapixel samsung is so rubbishy compared to my old canon 2megapixel... the size of the sensor affects directly the ability of the camera to capture undistorted pictures, and the older digital cameras had much bigger sensors relative to the original 35mm film format... modern "cheap" sensors are around 6x6mm, and the camera uses all sorts of digital techniques to compensate for fish eye effects... anyway, `nufff bla bla, i have alll my old cameras still, maybe if i get time i`ll set up a similar train to yours, and make a comparison between "old" and "new" digicams.

very interesting subject tho, if it dosent already have a thread, maybe photography should get one here, then we can really go into things like coulour(liveries) and how differently people percieve them, and what factors influence that perception!

[Mallard60022]

KK that's an excellent idea. I for one might then start to learn a bit about taking pics. At the moment I'm hopeless and know nothing of the huge amount of 'apps' that one can use to play with images.

Phil

[great northern]

The Peterborough North project would never have got off the ground, let alone this far, without the help and guidance of many people. Yesterday I discovered that one of them has gone for ever, and I feell the need to mark his passing in some way, however inadequate, on this thread, I met Andy Rush a couple of years ago, and before long I realised just what a depth of knowledge he had, and, to my delight, that he was willing to share it with me. I shall never forget the first time he visited me, and after gazing at the contents of my fiddle yard for a while, turning to me and saying gently "would you like me to tell you what is wrong with your goods trains".  No derision, no criticism, just an indication that all was not as it should be.

 

I had the good sense to say "yes" and from then on Andy freely gave of his time to help me to understand more, and to do things better. The idea of using cassettes, which has transformed the operation of the layout, was also born of a discussion with him, after which he sent me photos of his own system which helped me to visualise the whole thing. For those who don't know, Andy was a railwayman, and started his career back in the early '60's at March. We have lost another of those few people who could actually tell us with authority exactly what happened back then, as he was there not only to see it, but to make it happen. He is in every way irreplaceable, but his place in my heart and as a lasting memory on Peterborough North lives on. There will be proper goods trains Andy, that I promise you. I've taken a couple of hasty photos as some form of immediate commemoration. They aren't very good, but that doesn't matter at all today.

Here then is a March B17, in the condition in which Andy assured me they were always kept, having brought a parcels train from his beloved GE. Passing on the Down slow is a WD, which for some years was one of the many at March, and will have hauled many of the goods trains that he set up.

 

I suspect that when Andy was at Peterborough, his eyes would have been turned to the goods lines more than to the big stuff, so here is a K3, another class long associated with March, and hauling one of the trains that I have been able to create with his help and advice. Gone, but not forgotten. Rest in peace Andy.

[LNER4479]

Despite the shock at hearing the news about Andy Rush, I thoroughly enjoyed my visit to Peterborough North yesterday afternoon, being the first time I have seen the layout. I went armed with my ramshackle camera equipment (comprising Digi-SLR camera [Canon 350D], tripod and battered spotlight) as I fancied a crack at what is fast becoming the PN photographic challenge(!) Gilbert (Great Northern) was a very welcoming host and very tolerant of my crawling into inaccessible spots and plonking my camera down on that beautiful trackwork. I did threaten promise to post a few of the results, so here goes:

 

Firstly, a general view showing the man and his layout of a lifetime. People often like to see a layout in its wider environment, so here we are.

 

What struck me is how BIG the actual station is! That sounds like a daft thing to say (true!) but nothing prepares you for the sheer scale of what has been achieved in the station area. The station buildings and overall roof are a breathtaking piece of modelling - almost miniature engineering in places. Running a goods train was an early priority in the circumstances, whilst one of those funny Thompson pacific thingys has charge of a northbound parcels.

 

I was aware of the lighting 'challenge' and came prepared! Here we've shut the blinds on the natural daylight and used the spotlight to add to the lighting on this side, showing the north end of the station

 

Peter (Gravy Train) Leyland's magnificent recreation of one of the few recognisable buildings that can still be seen today - the aptly named Great Northern hotel. We've stayed here a couple of times in recent years - it's like actually being there!

 

Time to run some trains - the schedule beckoned (there are over 600 moves in the 24 hour sequence! It is currently early evening). A V2-hauled service from King's Cross terminates in the main down platform, whilst 60030 'Golden Fleece' threads her way through the station with a Leeds express.

 

A B17 terminates in the 'excursion' platform with a short parcels train. The crew have been very quick in removing the headlamps...(!)

 

The cause of a few admiring glances? The careworn appearance of the station (as would have been the case in 1958) is brilliantly captured

 

The station pilots then sprang into life. The stock of a service to Grimsby is being positioned in one of the northbound bay platforms.

 

The stock of the service from King's Cross was then disposed of, which gave me my chance at the 'under the roof' shot! As the C12 awaits the signal to propel back, the photographer pounced! For those interested, this is a 15 second exposure at F32, slightly telephoto (the camera body is actually just outside the overall roof) with the spotlight held as close to the skylights as we dared. And no stacking anywhere to be seen! This has been sufficient to capture the charismatic internal detail.

 

And now the stock is being positioned in one of the north end sidings. Didn't notice till too late that the autofocus had settled on the middle of the artic twin so apologies for slightly out-of-focus view of the signal box and the loco front, which are more what the eye is drawn to.

 

Shunting complete, the stage is set for a northbound express!

 

I gather the real 'Woolwinder' has a special place in Gilbert's affection. The platform enders seem to approve.

 

Station duties complete, the A3 gets underway again to continue its journey northbound. Our photographer has scrambled up onto the bridge north of the station to capture this view which highlights the forest of signals at this end. What can't be appreciated from this view is the gorgeous rake of Gresley teak stock behind the loco.

 

Thanks once again to Gilbert for his kind invitation; it was truly a privilege to see Peterborough North close up. Simply stunning.

Edited August 10, 2013 by LNER4479

[micklner]

Nice pictures good to see how big it all is !!

[westerner]

Good to see an overall shot and one of Gilbert I presume.

[Andrew P]

Wonderful, just wonderful, I love it every time I click into it for another bit LOT of inspiration :locomotive: :locomotive: :locomotive: .

 

Andy

[manna]

G'Day Gents

 

Fantastic pictures, I never realized how big the forecourt of the the station is, it's huge !

 

In the early 70's (sorry) when we arrived from the 'Cross' with a stopping train, we normally arrived at platform 6 (where your GE stoppers arrive), from there we would propel our train back into the carrage sidings, down by the Nene river,  (sorry can't remember there name) do you do the same! always thought it was such a wonderful conflicting move.

 

manna

[robmcg]

Inspiring modelling and great photography, Thankyou.

 

Rob